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I have friends that either volunteer or run their own rescue and I've never heard of not adopting to someone that works full time. You said your breeder won't sell to anyone that works full time. Thats just crazy
How does staying home and not working make you a better dog owner?
And Bulldogs are in rescues for other reasons besides just health issues, aggression is another big problem with bullies. They can be a big handful with an inexperienced dog owner.
No, I said my breeder won't sell to anyone that works full-time outside the home. My husband works at home, full time. He's not unemployed but he's not out of the house, either. So, since day one of being with us, PC has had someone with him almost 24/7. We had no issues with this rule. In fact, it's great because we had a housebroken dog before he was 4 months of age, a dog that never chewed anything, was never crated and had no behavioral issues. To this day, we rarely leave him alone for more than 3 hours at a time. He's the breeder, he makes the rules. I see no problem with that. There are plenty of Bulldog breeders in this area without rules who will sell you a puppy and never look back. I meet these dogs and their owners at the park all the time. That is why our Meetup has 564 Bulldogs, they are that easy to get around here.
I did mention aggression as a reason as well with the rescue. The President of the Bulldog rescue here is the one that said that, not me. Those are his exact words. He posts photos of the dogs on their site every single day. The condition some of them are in is inexcusable. Right now, they're up to 52 Bulldogs, and almost every single one of them has severe health or aggression issues. The rest are just old and not what people are looking for, sadly.
Buying from a reputable breeder[/b]. Why is this rarely mentioned in this context? How many people are willing to go through what MAK went through? I know that there certainly are grades of this, but how many people would be willing to allow the breeder to be "part of the dog's life" after the purchase? And, how many people would be willing to wait a year or more for their dog? IMO, if someone wants to do this, that's great, but I also don't think that this should be a requirement for getting a dog. (Just speaking about possible alternatives to pet shops here.) While I do understand the breeder's dedication to protecting and promoting the breed, I don't think that a lot of people would view this as a viable alternative to the pet shop, byb route. So, it makes sense to me that this alternative is not brought up that often in discussions like this.
Here's the thing. I met my now husband in 2006. We were engaged in 2007, married in 2008. In 2007, we started talking about getting a dog after we get married. We planned this way ahead. It wasn't some spur of the moment decision where we had to run to the pet store and buy one right there and then. We knew we wanted a Bulldog, we knew that reputable breeders have waiting lists, and we knew that a month after the wedding we'd be moving across the country. So, we found a breeder in our new hometown and were more than happy to wait 13 months. We were simply not ready before that. He came at the most perfect time and has been nothing but a joy in our lives. The wait was perfect for us, we could not have had him earlier due to the fact that we were still living on the East coast. People wait 9 months for a baby without complaints, funny how it's so different when it's a dog!
Animals shouldn't be purchased or even adopted at the spur of the moment. We researched extensively before making the decision to bring a dog into our home and couldn't be happier with our decision. And as far as the breeder being a part of the dog's life, he has been amazing. If we ever have a question regarding anything he will be there to answer. When my baby got sick with a bacterial infection at 6 months of age, my breeder met me at the vet's office at 11pm. He didn't have to, but he did. We love him and his family and enjoy seeing him at various Bulldog events. When I had two 5 week old Pit Bull foster puppies, it was my breeder who gave me deworming medication and helped me figure out how to properly care for puppies that young. He is absolutely wonderful and we're very lucky to have him in our lives.
Buying from a reputable breeder: While this may sound like a good idea on the surface, how does someone know whether the breeder is "reputable" or not? I have had two dogs from breeders. The first one gave me a pure-bred Dalmatian puppy with a pink nose, but showed me no papers. Nor did I ask for any. He took his dogs to shows, and told me the pink nose was a disqualifying factor. Since I don't show dogs, I have absolutely no way of knowing whether he told me the truth, or was just feeding me a line. And, I really didn't care. He was a great dog, pink nose or not.
My next dog also came from a breeder. It was actually an elderly couple who owned a farm and two pure-bred Golden Retreivers. They showed me the AKC registration papers on the parents, and I also registered the puppy I purchased. They did not appear to be breeding Goldens for a living, they only had the two adult dogs, and they were selling each puppy for only $50 each (this was in the 1970s, so I am guessing that would be closer to $500 today). They also began advertising in the local newspaper after the puppies were born. I only had to wait two weeks until they were weened at about 8 weeks old. They did not vaccinate or spay/neuter the puppies, that was my expense. To this day I could not tell you if either breeder was "reputable," but I did get two very good dogs from them. No health or temperament issues with either dog, but I only registered the one dog.
The only way to find a reputable breeder is to go their breed club's website. There is no other way, no matter what they tell you and whatever fake AKC papers they show you. You have to contact the breed club and they will send you a list of all the reputable breeders in your area.
You said your golden's parents were on site. No reputable breeder owns both the stud and b7itch. That's a huge red flag and a sign of a byb, it just doesn't work that way. And no reputable breeder will advertise in the paper, ever. In fact, if they have a website, they don't advertise puppies on there either, since all the pups have homes long before they are born. Most don't even have a site, just an email address listed on the breed club's site.
stan4, reputable breeders who have humane care in their breeding is not the target of these bans. Most of the bans initially (although that may have been skewed) are to help stop the inhumane mills. There is nothing wrong with using a humane breeder to get a specific dog with specific traits so long as their process is humane. Actually, i would think a person looking at a pure breed would do what you did because they want to get from the most reprutable person since who knows what you'll get from some mall pets store?
banevader,
1. Stop playing the fool, you know exactly what I'm talking about. Puppy production factories, not reputable humane breeders! That's one heck of a smoke screen your throwing out.
2. Not, so. There are other countries who on a national level placed restrictions and it's been working. The US has a problem because one state can't tell another state how to conduct business. The only thing a state can do is put local restrictions on local commerce. If that result in the mills not being able to sell, at least that state did what it could. If enough states did it, those mills will need to clean up their acts. pet stores know darn well what's happening at the factories, so they are not innocent.
3. When the USDA banned the import of dogs from foreign puppy mills, many lost their US customers and went out of business. A few specialty breeds relied upon the US and European vanity markets for the builk of their sales. To prevent them from being cut off from that money, they rebuilt their breeding operations so it could pass unannouced inspection. The humane level went from F- - - - to maybe B+ or A-. And guess what, the humane breeding programs actually produced more money for them because they were't stuck trying to hawk dozens of inferior puppies to black market brokers. They produces only a small amount that they use to produce, but at substantially less cost, with more healthy and adjusted puppies that commanded a higher price in the pure breed buyers.
4. I have no idea what that means and it makes no sense. I think you meant to say people wanting pure breed vanity dogs at cheap prices. If they want a cheap dog, they can get one at a shelter. But they don't want those common diogs, they want a specific dog as a fashion accessory. To be honsest, most people I know who have pure breds and buy them from pet shops are not in it for the breed, they are in it for the vanity. People who get pure brreds who respect the breeds, don't buy from pet stores but reputable breeders.
5. See #1 above.
Don't confuse puppy mills with reputable breeders. Don't confuse pure breed for the breed with pure breed as an accessory.
Whatever.
People want inexpensive animals for pets.
Unless and until that demand is curbed,there will be people ready and willing to fill it.
No amount of banning or breast-beating and teeth gnashing is going to prevent that.
Come up w/ solutions that curb the DEMAND and you'll solve the SUPPLY issues.
See: The drug problem in this country.
I'd like to address the major difference between reputable breeders and back yard breeders (BYB).
My experience is with German Shepherds so I'll use them as an example.
Unfortunately, this breed is prone to some devastating health issues. One of the most considered is hip dysplasia. Reputable breeders underwrite the expense of x-raying and certifying their animal's hips and elbows. German bred dogs are also certified for breeding, and part of that certification demands proof of temperament via Schutzhund. Titling dogs weeds out weak nerves and unstable temperaments. The cost of health testing (not only x-rays) and titling is substantial. Reputable breeders don't throw together dogs at random, they study generations of history for the lines they want incorporated into their breeding programs. American breeders, IMO, have ruined the breed.
Thanks for the education. That would certainly explain the high cost of pure-bred puppies these days, at least those from reputable breeders. It also helps to know what kinds of certifications a reputable breeder obtains for their dogs. It will give the buyer a means to identify whether the breeder is reputable or not. Which addresses my biggest question about breeders, how to distinguish a reputable one from a not so reputable breeder from the buyer's perspective.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Creek Hollow
Anyway, it is very unlikely that a BYB would go through this expense of money and time for the breed. Yes, you could get lucky and buy a healthy dog with a stable temperament, but the chances are not in your favor. There are few back yard breeders who truly seek betterment of the breed as their goal.
I completely agree, a backyard breeder or puppy mill is only interested in turning a profit, they have little or no interest in the dog. It is just a commodity to be sold to them.
However, there are also regular families, who have no intention of breeding their dogs, but nevertheless end up with a litter of puppies. When the puppies have been weened these are the people you typically see in pick-up trucks in parking lots or on the side of the road selling fewer than a dozen puppies, usually mixed-breed, but all from the same litter. Or a family may advertise in the local paper, and you can tell by visiting their home that they are trying to find homes for their family pet's puppies, not some breeder trying to off-load puppies for a quick buck.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Creek Hollow
HD is a crippling and painful disease. An unstable temperament is potentially dangerous. GSDs are also prone to bloat, which can run in certain lines, and is fatal without prompt intervention and a several thousand dollar surgery. Pannus is also a genetic flaw. And so on....
Hip dysplasia is something I am familiar with, and it is a common ailment in many large and giant breed dogs. Particularly among mixed-breeds. I have no doubt that all breeds come with genetic risks, as do all humans. While a reputable breeder may have a keen interest in improving the line, I seriously doubt that is the foremost concern of the vast majority of dog owners.
Some just want companionship, or a family dog, or to train them to hunt, or to pull a sled, or for protection, etc. Different people have different needs, but every dog owner wants a healthy, mentally stable dog. Potential dog owners should be made aware of those genetic risks before purchasing their dog, regardless of breed, so they can make an informed decision on whether it is worth taking those risks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Creek Hollow
Back yard breeders and puppy mills exist only because they are supported by uneducated buyers or unscrupulous pet stores, and I don't mean uneducated in a bad or condescending way. Many people don't realize the potential health or temperament weaknesses in the breeds they love.
An unscrupulous business will certainly make a profit in the short term, but in the long run they will always go out of business. So the odds are pretty good that if a pet store has been around for years that it most likely is not selling puppies from puppy mills. In addition, the pet store should be willing to show a potential buyer any records they have on the puppy. At the very least, I would want to verify that the puppy has had their parvo vaccination if it is in a kennel with other puppies from different litters. At 8 weeks old I don't expect the puppies to be fully vaccinated yet, but a parvo vaccination in that kind of environment is essential.
Animals shouldn't be purchased or even adopted at the spur of the moment. We researched extensively before making the decision to bring a dog into our home and couldn't be happier with our decision. And as far as the breeder being a part of the dog's life, he has been amazing. If we ever have a question regarding anything he will be there to answer.
Absolutely not. But to expect that people will wait a year or more is not realistic.
It worked out for you, and that's great, but I'm sure you can understand that's not for everyone.
Just to go back, briefly, to the problem of shelters being too rigid/invasive/demanding and other options for people who would rather rescue than buy from a breeder or store, there is also Animal Control itself. Around here, a dog or cat gets 3 days only in which to land a home...then they are euthanized. The facility here charges $100, which covers initial vaccinations, s/n, and microchip. I asked a friend who takes the animals' photos there, and she said the application process is really more of a formality...that they are more concerned with finding these animals homes before their 3 day expiration date than with investigating the potential owners or discouraging them in any way. I have no way of knowing if this is the case with Animal Control facilities in other areas, but it's certainly worth checking into.
You said your golden's parents were on site. No reputable breeder owns both the stud and b7itch. That's a huge red flag and a sign of a byb, it just doesn't work that way. And no reputable breeder will advertise in the paper, ever. In fact, if they have a website, they don't advertise puppies on there either, since all the pups have homes long before they are born. Most don't even have a site, just an email address listed on the breed club's site.
We have been members of our breeds parent club for over twenty year; my husband served two terms on their board of directors and I was national sales manager plus served on their judges education committee. We have bred and shown for over twenty five years, producing numerous champions and field titled dogs. To say that no reputable breeder will own both stud dog and female is ridiculous...while we did not often breed to our own stud dogs, occasionally we did when we felt it was the best choice for our girls, and produced lovely, healthy dogs (including champions) from those litters. To say that that is a sign of a BYB -huh? You are really over-generalizing with these statements...many breeders maintain separate lines and often breed to their own stud! As for puppies, while we often had a waiting list I certainly would list our breedings and upcoming litters on our website - why not? People want to see what you are producing, and sometimes there were puppies available....one might have more puppies than you thought, some families may have had to cancel at the last minute, etc.
And as for websites, I know of few breeders in this breed who DON'T have a website. I don't know what breed you are involved with, but this advice is doing a huge disservice to many good and reputable breeders.
Absolutely not. But to expect that people will wait a year or more is not realistic.
It worked out for you, and that's great, but I'm sure you can understand that's not for everyone.
You're absolutely right; however, it isn't necessary to wait so long for a reputable breeder's dog.
Not every pup in a well bred litter is a rising star. Some show line pups simply don't make the cut conformation-wise or coat-wise, and some working line pups simply don't have the drive. That doesn't change their quality genetics and they make excellent pets. It's not difficult to find one, especially if you're willing to drive a bit or trust the breeder choose a pup whose temperament best suits your home.
I guess what I try to keep in mind is that there are no absolutes. It is possible to get a good dog from a BYB, if you want to gamble with health and temperament. It is also possible to get an iffy dog from a breeder.
The people who want a well bred dog know how to look for one. As mentioned above, breed specific sites and clubs can provide recommendations, although realize they do so only in their local region.
The AKC offers referrals. Breed specific forums are another excellent way to obtain a referral if one can spend enough time on them to know the participants. Go to breed specific shows, meetings of local breed clubs. The hunt for the perfect dog is fun.
Nothing beats vigorously checking health as it relates to the breed you've chosen. Titles aren't just air, they're temperament testers in the case of working breeds.
I think too many animal purchases are not thought through. It always amazes me when people say they have enough money to buy an animal, but then are aghast at vet bills, cost of quality food, equipment, etc.
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