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Old 11-29-2011, 05:40 PM
 
Location: Earth Wanderer, longing for the stars.
12,408 posts, read 16,446,843 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harrier View Post
"It will take a health department issues (people getting sick, a child dying, food contamination, a person being bitten) for these dog owners to be controlled."

Oh my!

What is with the anti-dog vitriol. Most dogs are a lot cleaner and well behaved then some people. Why do you think dogs are trained as service animals? Do you think they would be used in such a capacity if it was likely they could make a person sick, bite a child, or contaminate food? The service dogs are trained to do their job - beyond that they have nothing special about them that would make them any less less likely to do the above things as another dog. The fact is that a trained domestic dog is usually clean, healthy, and well behaved. The fact is that you have been conditioned by the ADA law to distinguish between a "special" dog and all other domestic dogs. The only dogs one should be concerned about in a public place are feral animals. But I forget - I am in California - Liberal La-La land where everyone thinks it is their business to regulate the business of everyone else - including judging there dog as a hazard to human health without any evidence. As I said on another thread dealing with personal liberty threats - PATHETIC!
I totally agree with you. I have more fun watching dogs frolicking after balls in parks than annoying screaming spoiled little offspring of most humans. I think kids should be on leashes outside sometimes. I marvel that there are people nuts enough to want to kidnap the little monsters.

 
Old 11-29-2011, 06:28 PM
 
Location: West Virginia
12,403 posts, read 31,403,364 times
Reputation: 8098
I see nothing wrong with the small dogs in back pack or Stoller! To many people run into my scooter with their gro carts.... Backpack would make it Safer for my tiny SD! Yes they can still do the job they were born or trained to do! I was walking downtown from my apt to my sons house with Jetta! We got to a narrow part of the sidewalk...so I told her Back [meaning for her to drop back & walk Behind the scooter! Well about the time we got to a wide part of the sidewalk we were in front of public phone booth. The kid parents were NOT watching the 5 yr old kid!! Next thing I knew he Grabbed Jetta & was Running away with her!!!! Jetta was Wearing Choker Collor & her 6 Ft lead was Tied to the scooter!! He was Choking her To DEATH!! I was Screaming for him to put her down Parents just kept yapping on the damn phone!! They didnt do a thing til I got close enough to Grab the little Brat!!! Another time I was in the Book store & this kid came over & grab Katie by her front paws & started Dancing with her! YES My SD goes into BackPack on my scooter when in stores where there are Monsters & Stupid parents around!
 
Old 11-29-2011, 08:47 PM
 
355 posts, read 1,090,387 times
Reputation: 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrs1885 View Post
Bless you girl for jumping in!! By the time I got to the last page I was ready to pull my hair out. Is this an actual useful post, or just someone blowing off steam?

Personally, I have a bigger problem with the rug rats people let run loose. You want to talk about people getting sick? You're MUCH more likely to catch something from a school age child than from an animal. There aren't that many zoonotic diseases out there that you can catch just because an animal was there at some time.

As for dog bites, they're possible. So address the real issue - the idiot owners that don't bother to properly train their pets before taking them in public.

I"m a huge supporter of pets being allowed any place humans are IF they're properly trained and socialized. I know when I'm running errands that Munchi can go on with me I'm much less stressed and don't have issues with road rage. I can focus on her instead of the idiots out there and be a much nicer person at the end of the day.
. While I somewhat agree with this, the thing is, animals are very unpredictable. As the owner, YOU may think your dog is trained and laid back, but the dog could have a reaction by anything; including colors, sound, fear, or even just by seeing another dog they deem as a threat. As I stated before, I had a friend who had to pay almost $1000 in court fees because her dog ran off and bit a child. She claimed her dog was so sweet and never was aggressive so she felt the dog didn't need a leash *rolls eyes*. As far as humans having more diseases than dogs, that may be true, but I don't think sitting at a table where a dog was recently, shedding and drooling to the tenth power sanitary either. So, people need to keep their dogs on a leash and they should NOT be allowed to roam where humans do unless it is in a park or other dog-friendly setting.
 
Old 11-29-2011, 09:10 PM
 
Location: Mountains of middle TN
5,244 posts, read 13,995,655 times
Reputation: 6063
Quote:
Originally Posted by sajae90 View Post
. While I somewhat agree with this, the thing is, animals are very unpredictable. As the owner, YOU may think your dog is trained and laid back, but the dog could have a reaction by anything; including colors, sound, fear, or even just by seeing another dog they deem as a threat. As I stated before, I had a friend who had to pay almost $1000 in court fees because her dog ran off and bit a child. She claimed her dog was so sweet and never was aggressive so she felt the dog didn't need a leash *rolls eyes*. As far as humans having more diseases than dogs, that may be true, but I don't think sitting at a table where a dog was recently, shedding and drooling to the tenth power sanitary either. So, people need to keep their dogs on a leash and they should NOT be allowed to roam where humans do unless it is in a park or other dog-friendly setting.
When properly trained dogs are NOT unpredictable. I've got 16 years in training behind me as well as 15 years + in rescue work. I wouldn't call myself a first time dog owner by any means.

How does a leashed dog run off and bite someone?? A RESPONSIBLE owner doesn't take a dog in public unleashed.

As for sitting where a dog was drooling.................do the places you go not clean up?? Have you not seen children? Their hands are always in their nasty little mouths, full of germs, usually sticky, and they insist on touching EVERYTHING. There are actually few breeds of dog that drool a lot. Molossers of course. But aside from them, very few are heavy droolers. I've got a house full of dogs and no drool to clean up.

I've been around a lot of kids and a lot of dogs and I can honestly say I think dogs are MUCH cleaner. And more sanitary. And cute. I'd rather ban the kids and allow the dogs - if well socialized and trained - to be the ones to be allowed in a restaurant on a leash with their educated handler. But I guess we'll just agree to disagree.
 
Old 11-29-2011, 09:17 PM
 
4,919 posts, read 19,809,304 times
Reputation: 6214
Quote:
Originally Posted by goldengrain View Post
It appears as though the OP does not consider the owner's emotional needs as a valid reason to call a dog a service dog.
Neither does the US goverment anymore. As of March of this year, emotional and comfort animals as expressly stated as not being service animals and are not protected under US laws anymore. This is not the typical removing them from the definition, the justice dept went so far as to actually write into the law that they are noy service animals. Every state has the right to include them in their state laws but that does not apply outside that state and certainly not to interstate activities such as air travel. The new rules are the animal has to be Trained to peform a Task, and according to USDOJ, if the dog is just to provide pychological, emotional or comfort and not trained to actually do something, its not a SA. BUT, if the animal is trained to perform a task such as sensing a distinct change in a persons pshycological mental state and immedietely removing the person from that enviroment to a safe/clear zone, it may meet the new regulations.

Unfortunetely it was a direct result of the fakers ruining it for the legitimate people who needed them. Not only are the sc^m bag fakers the cause but their pimp doctors for playing fast and loose with this, AND lets not forget the slime ball vendors who sell these fake SA gear to anyone with money!
 
Old 11-29-2011, 09:43 PM
 
355 posts, read 1,090,387 times
Reputation: 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrs1885 View Post
When properly trained dogs are NOT unpredictable. I've got 16 years in training behind me as well as 15 years + in rescue work. I wouldn't call myself a first time dog owner by any means.

How does a leashed dog run off and bite someone?? A RESPONSIBLE owner doesn't take a dog in public unleashed.

As for sitting where a dog was drooling.................do the places you go not clean up?? Have you not seen children? Their hands are always in their nasty little mouths, full of germs, usually sticky, and they insist on touching EVERYTHING. There are actually few breeds of dog that drool a lot. Molossers of course. But aside from them, very few are heavy droolers. I've got a house full of dogs and no drool to clean up.

I've been around a lot of kids and a lot of dogs and I can honestly say I think dogs are MUCH cleaner. And more sanitary. And cute. I'd rather ban the kids and allow the dogs - if well socialized and trained - to be the ones to be allowed in a restaurant on a leash with their educated handler. But I guess we'll just agree to disagree.
Well, no, not all dogs shed or drool....that wasn't the point I was making. And I also agree that unruly kids in public are just of a pain and there needs to be something done about that as well. What I am saying is, there needs to be some regulation on what is considered a "trained" dog....because if that is the case, EVERYONE can just say,"Hey, this dog has been trained by me....so he is now a service dog or he is allowed to sit at the restaurant table".....The dogs will need to be trained by some type of licensed organization/person and I can see the laws moving towards this direction (thank GAWD!). I LOVE dogs, but think about the public who are forced to put up or be exposed to other people's dogs in a setting such as a restaurant or at the bank. Not only would we have to put up with other people's unruly, annoying children, but we also have to keep an eye on everyone's dogs, hoping the dog doesn't act out, break loose from their leash or bite us.......what I am saying is the line has to be crossed somewhere, whether the dog is trained or not.
 
Old 11-29-2011, 10:37 PM
 
Location: Cody, WY
9,557 posts, read 10,867,662 times
Reputation: 19143
Our dogs count just as much. There shouldn't be laws that discriminate against us because we have pets. Let the owners of restaurants and grocery stores and other businesses make the decision. I'd pick the places where I could bring my pals. Let people who don't like animals pick places where they're not allowed.

It's obvious that some of the posters on this thread hate animals, particularly dogs. They hate us as well because we love our animals. What wretched lives they must lead so consumed with hate!
 
Old 11-29-2011, 11:49 PM
 
Location: Bay Area, CA
29,041 posts, read 44,951,970 times
Reputation: 20423
Quote:
Originally Posted by faunablues View Post
Look man, I love dogs. But there are actual risks of having dogs in these stores and wearing the vests when they're not really trained. What if an untrained dog bit someone? You might assume they're better-behaved because of the vest and be more at risk.
You aren't supposed to bother or pet a service dog anyway, so it's kinda your fault if you get bitten... not to excuse their behavior, but most people know not to pet these dogs without permission.

Quote:
Also, some people are allergic to dogs. Yes, they'll be exposed to the service dogs anyway, but why make just existing in a store more uncomfortable for them than it needs to be.
I'm allergic to perfume and flowers, and yet they not only let perfumed folks into these stores - they actually SELL perfume and flowers! 'Tis life, and that's why they sell allergy pills on the next aisle.

Quote:
Also, there's the issue of food preparation. While dogs aren't necessarily carrying many more pathogens than a human, they do have hair that floats around and can come into contact with food. Just saying, it's not a matter of hating dogs, it IS a health issue.
And this is the only logical reason for not allowing dogs into grocery stores or restaurants, and why I don't try to bring my dog into them... but real service dogs are a different story, and always allowed by federal law/ADA. The whole "emotional support dog" thing is another story altogether, and I'm kind of with the OP on that one. My dog brings me "emotional support" every day, and I don't believe that qualifies him to come into restaurants. And I actually do suffer from an anxiety disorder (OCD), but still think that would be some tacky BS!

I did consider getting him certified just for housing purposes, since apparently they can't reject a service dog in rentals - or charge the pet rent/fees. Around here, I'd do anything to find more available and "affordable" (by our standards) rental housing. It's nearly impossible to find anything dog-friendly in this city, and as a result I'm paying waaaaaay too much for a 1br apartment. But aside from that one exception, I think service dogs should be limited to those who TRULY need them... including but not necessarily limited to the visually impaired, hard-of-hearing, and actual physically disabled. JMO.
 
Old 11-30-2011, 12:01 AM
 
Location: Bay Area, CA
29,041 posts, read 44,951,970 times
Reputation: 20423
Quote:
Originally Posted by sajae90 View Post
. While I somewhat agree with this, the thing is, animals are very unpredictable. As the owner, YOU may think your dog is trained and laid back, but the dog could have a reaction by anything; including colors, sound, fear, or even just by seeing another dog they deem as a threat. As I stated before, I had a friend who had to pay almost $1000 in court fees because her dog ran off and bit a child. She claimed her dog was so sweet and never was aggressive so she felt the dog didn't need a leash *rolls eyes*. As far as humans having more diseases than dogs, that may be true, but I don't think sitting at a table where a dog was recently, shedding and drooling to the tenth power sanitary either. So, people need to keep their dogs on a leash and they should NOT be allowed to roam where humans do unless it is in a park or other dog-friendly setting.
I don't think that poster (or anyone really) is arguing for OFF-LEASH dogs to be allowed anywhere... are they? Service dogs - or even emotional support dogs - are still expected to be leashed, in fact they're usually on a full harness in public. Your friend example doesn't really apply, at least not to the discussion of allowing service/ESDs in public places. Or did you think they were exempt from leash laws?
 
Old 11-30-2011, 12:25 AM
 
Location: Kowaniec, Nowy Targ, Podhale. 666 m n.p.m.
371 posts, read 839,866 times
Reputation: 475
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lola88 View Post
What is going on with some dog owners? My two pet peeves which also happen to be very common and illegal.

1) Unattended dogs who are allowed to run free off the leash - that the owners do not care how much they bark or who they run into or what they are disrupting (my group tennis lesson).
I have read on other blogs that it is pretty much against the law to have dogs off the leashes in public areas, other than, and I'm guessing, dog parks.
Department of Animal Care & Control
I see dogs off their leashes all the time and I have never seen a dog owner ever get a ticket. A fellow tennis player said that he sees people get $58 tickets daily near his beach house. It says the tickets can be up to $250. I don't get it. How can people let their dogs bark and run wild when it is against the law and not in human beings' public best interest.
You must hate me... My dog is off the leash as much as possible. This includes public transport, restaurants, (unless the restaurant owner complains, then I'll put her on the leash), bars that I frequent, pretty much anywhere where a fine isn't imminent. And for a dog the size of mine, it's illegal in Poland to have it unmuzzled when off a leash in public places.

But yes, I take full responsibility for my dog, my dog (a Belgian shepherd) is extremely well trained and behaved. I pick up after her, she ignores other dogs unless in a park, she doesn't even cross a street without permission.
And about fines, it's more or less included in my monthly budget for tickets. Every month I put 400 PLN to the side for unwanted expenses, which includes fines for walking my dog off a leash or getting a parking or speeding ticket...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lola88 View Post

2) A new trend is that people are lying and buying their dog red "service dog" vests to bring them into Whole Foods, restaurants, walk them around airports. I am 100% supportive of actual service dogs for blind people, dogs that hear for people or help them when their insulin is low.

What I have learned is this: Everyone is afraid of offending a real person with a disability. If someone has a note from their psychologist saying they are "nervous", that does not constitute a disability. A true service dog is trained by an organization (not an individual or the owner) to do a task or job that dogs don't usually do (like see for a blind person). When the dogs are working, they are working for the person with the disability. That is the only time they get the special access. A seeing eye dog who is off the job, is not allowed into public places. So, the woman parading her "rescue dog" around the airport is breaking the law just to seek attention and be permissive. That dog is not currently rescuing. The woman carrying her "adorable" pooch in the grocery store or restaurant, and is "psychologically comforted" by her dog and may even have a note from her shrink - that is not a service dog because it is not performing a service other than being a little animal while she is acting out her attachment disorder on the animal.
In Texas, pretending to have a service dog or a disability is a criminal misdemeanor with a fine up to $3000.

See the wikipedia link and the link from Texas.

http://www.servicedogs.org/resources/LAWSUMM.doc

Service dog

These "comfort dogs" masquerading as "service dogs" are a huge problem. It will take a health department issues (people getting sick, a child dying, food contamination, a person being bitten) for these dog owners to be controlled.
I called the health department in Santa Monica and asked what the policy is when a person has a pet dressed as a "service dog" and enters a restaurant or grocery store. It is obvious, usually because the person is carrying the dog and it is not extremely well disciplined, that it is a "fraudulent service dog". When service dogs are working, it they are not to be petted by others who distract them from their duties. So, another clue is a person looking and encouraging others to pet the dog. That is not what goes on with a true service dog working for a person with a disability. The business owners are afraid to get in trouble with the ADA (Federal Disability Group) so they do nothing - they see the obviously untrained non-service dog with the entitled dog owner but are afraid of getting in trouble.

These are the two questions you can ask:
In the U.S., according to the Department of Justice's Business Brief concerning Service Animals, business owners/managers can ask 2 specific questions. 1) Is this a service dog required because of a disability? and 2) What task(s) is the dog trained to perform? If these questions are not appropriately answered, the business may exclude the animal, but not the person.

These dog owners are making our public places unsafe and also disrespecting the actual highly trained service dog serving individuals with real disabilities.
Actually, I could probably get away with it, as my dog is so well trained that whenever we visit a restaurant, she would lie under the table and ignore everything until it's time to go. More often than not, people don't even know that there is a dog until we go, and suddenly she would come from underneath the table...

I agree however that people shouldn't "fake" service dogs. Whenever I visit a place which has no clear no-dog policy, and I'm being let in with my dog, I usually tip the waitress generously to encourage this kind of hospitality towards dog owners. That generally works better than trying to cheat the system.

What I miss in your rant is the part that deals with dog owners' responsibility. It's not difficult to actually train your dog to behave in public places. Dogs want to please their masters, which they see as the alpha in their pack. So, encourage the behaviour you want, and discourage the behaviour you dislike in public. Sure, it takes some time, but hey, a pet is a member of your family and not a consumer item. If you can't be arsed socializing your pet, keep it in your back yard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lola88 View Post

This must stop.

Lola
I don't think people care enough to take such a stand against it. There are worse things going on in the world than misbehaving pets disrupting tennis classes. Although I understand your annoyance, the biggest issue is not the fact that people don't really respect the law, but more that people don't take their responsibility when it comes down to their pets.
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