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Old 06-14-2011, 09:32 AM
 
Location: Sacramento, Ca
2,048 posts, read 2,798,733 times
Reputation: 1650

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Niftybergin View Post
I have to say that I really don't TRY to talk to "clueless folks." It's an exercise in frustration, and it's pointless...unless I'm just feeling masochistic. I've noticed that for the most part, they just don't LISTEN. Either they ARE simply clueless, and so they don't recognize intelligent advice when they hear it, or they simply don't care. Either way, I figure I could talk to them until I'm blue in the face and it won't make a difference.
I am the same way, I just smile and nod and move on to another subject of conversation, or another place where i don't have to keep talking to them. Recently at a dog park, there was a male GSD about the same age as my girl. His owner asked if I'd be interested in having her carry a litter. I thought about trying to explain that there are just too many dogs and that I am in no position to care for a pregnant ***** nor do I have the knowledge or desire to try my hand at breeding. After a few seconds of talking with this person, I simply said "She's scheduled to be fixed in a couple of weeks, so that won't work." I knew it wasn't worth the effort to try and explain anything more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maestramommy View Post
ugh, if they're "just dogs," why'd they get one in the first place? I don't believe in humanizing dogs either, but at least treat them with the respect they deserve as DOGS!!
I get this, even from my friends from time to time. "It's Friday night, why are you at the dog park?" and "It's just a dog, leave it at home!" I didn't get the dog so that I could have her around when it's convenient for me. I think it is my responsibility to make sure she gets properly exercised and socialized, for my well being as well as hers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gizmo980 View Post
Btw, we went to the same dog park today, and I think these particular folks are just generally annoying... there was actually a man with this medium-sized dog, who thought it was CUTE how his "baby" likes to bite people! WTF?? The dog was sitting on a bench (next to his owner), and this other owner was kind of teasing him - the dog bared his teeth, and took at least 4-5 nips at him. And they were laughing!! He obviously wasn't going to maim anyone, but really?? That is so not cute, and I'd be calling a trainer asap if it were my dog. I was so flabbergasted by this one, I just watched them with a confused look on my face.

I am in the Bay Area as well and I have found the crowd really varies depending on the park, and the time. The mid day crowd is quite different from the evening crowd and how the attitudes differ from park to park is really noticeable. Even what level of play is acceptable varies, some folks just don't really understand how dogs play together and think it's too rough, other actually let their dogs play too rough. I'm sure it isn't unique to the area.
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Old 06-14-2011, 11:09 AM
 
Location: Santa Barbara CA
4,706 posts, read 10,130,741 times
Reputation: 8525
I have always spayed or neutered my dogs and cats as have my family and friends. Someone commented on how unaltered animals have longer lives, well lets see, these are some of the fixed dogs in the group mentioned above and the age when they died. Jazz-14.5, Maddie 14, Buster 13, Rusty ( a big Collie) 16,Bailey 15.5 Bart 15 I could go on so I have yet to see that is true.

My males have not been big leg lifters or markers or humpers so have been great to take out into the community nor are they going over fences to get to a female in heat..as a matter of fact Dazzle seems so clueless about such matters

Santa Barbara really pushes spay and neuter and as a result in the 30 yrs I have lived here I have seen our shelter go from having frequent puppies to very few puppies contrast that to Texas where I got Chaos and there were alot of puppies in the shelter and yes it was a kill shelter. It kills me to think if I had not seen that photo of Chaos and had it not screamed I am your dog to me that she may have been put to sleep as she is such a great social butterfly of a puppy to to think her life might have been cut very short as there were alot of puppies there and I heard that it is common to have many in the shelters there.

Nope I will always favor spay and neuter unless you are a serious and ethical breeder. Why put a dog through the frustrations that unfixed dogs go through? My parents had a dog that went into heat before she got spayed and she was so distressed by the fact she was dripping why make her have to deal with that??? And why risk bringing unwanted puppies into this world? as for death during the procedure yeah that can happen but life is without risks and any one of us could drop dead this next moment from hundreds of different things as could our dogs....I have worked in a hospital over 30 years so have seen how very true that is so do not take life for granted and do accept that death is a part of life for all living beings. I was going to say just getting out of bed in the morning s a risk but heck being in bed is just as much of a risk as death is always just a heart beat away. So while it breaks my heart that some dogs do die during or after surgery it would not stop me from having a dog fixed.
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Old 06-14-2011, 11:18 AM
 
Location: Santa Barbara CA
4,706 posts, read 10,130,741 times
Reputation: 8525
Quote:
Originally Posted by ecvMatt View Post
I am the same way, I just smile and nod and move on to another subject of conversation, or another place where i don't have to keep talking to them. Recently at a dog park, there was a male GSD about the same age as my girl. His owner asked if I'd be interested in having her carry a litter. I thought about trying to explain that there are just too many dogs and that I am in no position to care for a pregnant ***** nor do I have the knowledge or desire to try my hand at breeding. After a few seconds of talking with this person, I simply said "She's scheduled to be fixed in a couple of weeks, so that won't work." I knew it wasn't worth the effort to try and explain anything more.

.

My Jazz being a mix breed was very beautiful and very unique and toss smart in there so people were always taken with her and asking if I was going to breed her then saying I want one of the puppies...well she was fixed at 16 weeks so no puppies . But I do laugh as did they think I could breed her and produce puppies like her? She was a one of a kind dog.
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Old 06-14-2011, 11:20 AM
 
Location: St. Louis, Missouri
9,352 posts, read 16,776,804 times
Reputation: 11458
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dashdog View Post
I have always spayed or neutered my dogs and cats as have my family and friends. Someone commented on how unaltered animals have longer lives, well lets see, these are some of the fixed dogs in the group mentioned above and the age when they died. Jazz-14.5, Maddie 14, Buster 13, Rusty ( a big Collie) 16,Bailey 15.5 Bart 15 I could go on so I have yet to see that is true.

My males have not been big leg lifters or markers or humpers so have been great to take out into the community nor are they going over fences to get to a female in heat..as a matter of fact Dazzle seems so clueless about such matters

Santa Barbara really pushes spay and neuter and as a result in the 30 yrs I have lived here I have seen our shelter go from having frequent puppies to very few puppies contrast that to Texas where I got Chaos and there were alot of puppies in the shelter and yes it was a kill shelter. It kills me to think if I had not seen that photo of Chaos and had it not screamed I am your dog to me that she may have been put to sleep as she is such a great social butterfly of a puppy to to think her life might have been cut very short as there were alot of puppies there and I heard that it is common to have many in the shelters there.

Nope I will always favor spay and neuter unless you are a serious and ethical breeder. Why put a dog through the frustrations that unfixed dogs go through? My parents had a dog that went into heat before she got spayed and she was so distressed by the fact she was dripping why make her have to deal with that??? And why risk bringing unwanted puppies into this world? as for death during the procedure yeah that can happen but life is without risks and any one of us could drop dead this next moment from hundreds of different things as could our dogs....I have worked in a hospital over 30 years so have seen how very true that is so do not take life for granted and do accept that death is a part of life for all living beings. I was going to say just getting out of bed in the morning s a risk but heck being in bed is just as much of a risk as death is always just a heart beat away. So while it breaks my heart that some dogs do die during or after surgery it would not stop me from having a dog fixed.
wise words .... reps owed.....
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Old 06-14-2011, 12:03 PM
 
1,257 posts, read 4,052,508 times
Reputation: 1013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dashdog View Post
I have worked in a hospital over 30 years so have seen how very true that is so do not take life for granted and do accept that death is a part of life for all living beings. I was going to say just getting out of bed in the morning s a risk but heck being in bed is just as much of a risk as death is always just a heart beat away. So while it breaks my heart that some dogs do die during or after surgery it would not stop me from having a dog fixed.
Respectfully speaking, it doesn't matter to you that some dogs died after surgery. But it matters to me that my dog died after surgery.
You know that my GSD died from Aspergillus infection after the surgery due to the collapse of immunosystem. As someone who works in the hospital for 30 yrs, you know how painful it is. It is simply not an accident. If it happens in a hospital to a human being, a successful malpractice lawsuit is warranted.
Yes, there are risks in life. I would risk my life for many things because I make my own choice. But I don’t feel I have the right to risk life of others, especially those who can't speak for themselves if there are known risks that can be avoided by simply waiting a little longer.
However, you are entitled to do whatever to your dogs. I believe all dog owners should fully aware the pro and con of the procedure before making the decision no matter how "clueless" they are.

Last edited by LingLing; 06-14-2011 at 12:39 PM..
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Old 06-14-2011, 12:06 PM
 
9 posts, read 9,351 times
Reputation: 34
I am all for people choosing to s/n if that is what they want. I am also for people who want to keep their dogs intact if they are responsible.

The thing is there IS, as has been mentioned here, good data that shows altering particularly before maturity increases health risks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by steelstress View Post
I think pointing out the health advantages is a good place to start.
is a common thought, but actually there is more data for this argument being AGAINST altering.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MSchemist80 View Post
I'd tell them all the health problems that can occur such as cancer if they don't spay/neuter them and the potential vet bills ($10K+).
the overall risk of cancer goes up with fixing...

Quote:
On the positive side, neutering male dogs
• eliminates the small risk (probably <1%) of dying from testicular cancer
• reduces the risk of non-cancerous prostate disorders
• reduces the risk of perianal fistulas
• may possibly reduce the risk of diabetes (data inconclusive)
On the negative side, neutering male dogs
• if done before 1 year of age, significantly increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer); this is a
common cancer in medium/large and larger breeds with a poor prognosis.
• increases the risk of cardiac hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 1.6
• triples the risk of hypothyroidism
• increases the risk of progressive geriatric cognitive impairment
• triples the risk of obesity, a common health problem in dogs with many associated health problems
• quadruples the small risk (<0.6%) of prostate cancer
• doubles the small risk (<1%) of urinary tract cancers
• increases the risk of orthopedic disorders
• increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations
Quote:
On the positive side, spaying female dogs
• if done before 2.5 years of age, greatly reduces the risk of mammary tumors, the most common
malignant tumors in female dogs
• nearly eliminates the risk of pyometra, which otherwise would affect about 23% of intact female
dogs; pyometra kills about 1% of intact female dogs
• reduces the risk of perianal fistulas
• removes the very small risk (0.5%) from uterine, cervical, and ovarian tumors
On the negative side, spaying female dogs
• if done before 1 year of age, significantly increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer); this is a
common cancer in larger breeds with a poor prognosis
• increases the risk of splenic hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 2.2 and cardiac hemangiosarcoma by
a factor of >5; this is a common cancer and major cause of death in some breeds
• triples the risk of hypothyroidism
• increases the risk of obesity by a factor of 1.6-2, a common health problem in dogs with many
associated health problems
• causes urinary “spay incontinence” in 4-20% of female dogs
• increases the risk of persistent or recurring urinary tract infections by a factor of 3-4
• increases the risk of recessed vulva, vaginal dermatitis, and vaginitis, especially for female dogs
spayed before puberty
• doubles the small risk (<1%) of urinary tract tumors
• increases the risk of orthopedic disorders
• increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations
this is from a well researched/peer reviewed and cited article. http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongT...uterInDogs.pdf

As a breeder I request that people wait till the pups are mature to fix (baring issues). But then I won't sell to the average pet owner anyway. If I don't think they can be a responsible owner they don't get one of my dogs. The rescue is FULL of fantastic pets that are already altered.

My own female dogs are fixed once they are not going to be used for breeding (which is quite a while as I won't breed till they are 4 as many issues don't show up till then) Males get to keep their parts until they become a problem.
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Old 06-14-2011, 12:29 PM
 
1,257 posts, read 4,052,508 times
Reputation: 1013
Dogcoatthesis:

Thank you for useful information. Thank you!
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Old 06-14-2011, 01:00 PM
 
Location: Bay Area, CA
29,041 posts, read 44,920,109 times
Reputation: 20413
I just wanted to clarify something, since a few people are getting the wrong idea from my thread (or not reading closely enough). I NEVER said "you're clueless if you don't spay/neuter your dog - period" nor did I say that clueless people "need a talking to." I was venting about a SPECIFIC clueless woman, who deserved the title based on more than her neutering choice.

I am still in favor of s/n for most cats & dogs, but I also don't want you to think I judge anyone with an intact pet... I know there are different situations, and would never offer my advice or opinions without being asked. She asked me for advice, and I gave what I felt was appropriate for her. Clear?
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Old 06-14-2011, 01:10 PM
 
Location: Visitation between Wal-Mart & Home Depot
8,309 posts, read 34,303,061 times
Reputation: 7074
Quote:
Originally Posted by gizmo980 View Post
I just wanted to clarify something, since a few people are getting the wrong idea from my thread (or not reading closely enough). I NEVER said "you're clueless if you don't spay/neuter your dog - period" nor did I say that clueless people "need a talking to." I was venting about a SPECIFIC clueless woman, who deserved the title based on more than her neutering choice.

I am still in favor of s/n for most cats & dogs, but I also don't want you to think I judge anyone with an intact pet... I know there are different situations, and would never offer my advice or opinions without being asked. She asked me for advice, and I gave what I felt was appropriate for her. Clear?
If I was responsible for steering the thread in that direction that really wasn't the intent and I hope I didn't come across as pointing fingers in anyone's specific direction because that was truly meant to be a rant against some people in my physical neighborhood.

I do think it's generally better not to get involved unless someone is asking you a question that you are competent, equipped and willing to answer, which is what I was really hoping to get across.
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Old 06-14-2011, 01:21 PM
 
Location: Bay Area, CA
29,041 posts, read 44,920,109 times
Reputation: 20413
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimboburnsy View Post
If I was responsible for steering the thread in that direction that really wasn't the intent and I hope I didn't come across as pointing fingers in anyone's specific direction because that was truly meant to be a rant against some people in my physical neighborhood.

I do think it's generally better not to get involved unless someone is asking you a question that you are competent, equipped and willing to answer, which is what I was really hoping to get across.
The comment wasn't directed at anyone in particular, just a general "reminder" - since a few people seemed to take offense to the word clueless. Pretty much everyone I've interacted with here (on the Pets forum) is very well-informed, so I'd never call you guys clueless... even if we disagree on a few points, which we inevitably will/do.
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