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Old 08-25-2011, 05:27 PM
 
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Thanks for the happy update on Winnie! (happy)Tears popped into my eyes when I read the part about her asking for belly rubs. YAY!
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Old 09-12-2011, 01:15 PM
 
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Well, the clomipramine is definitely helping Winnie!

Without planning to, we ended up doing an A-B-A-B type experiment. For those of you who haven't read drug studies or other research on experimental treatments, this means you have patients with no treatment first, then studied while on treatment, then studied without treatment, then studied back on treatment. It's mostly not done with people, since it's seen as unethical to remove a treatment that's helping, even in an experimental design. Sometimes you'll see just an A-B-A designs when subjects are in one condition, then another condition, then back to the first condition.

Anyway, Winnie was on 2 pills a day since July, and as I posted earlier, she was showing improvement. Then last week we had about 10-12 pills left, so I called to vet to get a refill. Well, they are trying out a new assistant in the office, and there was a delay in the usual 48 hours it takes to get medications in. So I had to stretch the pills out, giving her only 1 pill a day for about 4 days. Just in that short period of time, she was "crazy" again. Examples:

Going for walks:
Before meds- she would run and jump in a bunch of different directions, not stopping to smell the smells other dogs like, very distractible by a leaf, a bug, anything moving.
When on meds several weeks- walks more like a "normal" dog. Pulls on the leash, which we'll address, but her pulling has a purpose and direction. She clearly wants to go "there" and not in 70 different directions. Stops to sniff poles, trees, fire hydrants, and other things dogs like to smell. Very interested in smells, like most dogs.
Down to 1/2 dose of meds- back to running and pulling in many different directions. Not smelling anything, doesn't seem to care about smells.

Snarling episodes:
Before meds- intermittent appearance of "Snarla," Winnie's evil alter personality. Suddenly snarling, growling, snapping, then quickly stopping. Bit me twice when she was "temporarily insane."
When on meds several weeks- decrease in Snarla episodes to 2 per week or less, and only directed toward the other dog going near her food, bed, or bone. Quickly stops snarling when yelled at. Triggers that used to set off the episodes aren't triggering it, except the territory stuff with the other dog. No biting of people (me) at all.
Down to 1/2 dose of meds- increase in snarling episodes to about 3 per day (almost as frequent as before meds, but not as severe).

Other changes:
Before meds-- would not lie next to us on the furniture. Instead would constantly jump on us, scratching us without meaning to, but seemed to have no control. Mouthing everything, accidently biting when mouthing got out of control. Would NEVER sit still when outside of crate.
On meds, full dose, for several weeks-- will sit or lie on couch next to us, accepts and elicits belly-rubs, still plays with lots of energy, but will sit down and rest in between. Much less mouthing, and stops mouthing as soon as corrected in a firm voice.
When on 1/2 dose of meds-- increase in jumping all over us as we sit on couch. Lots more mouthing, and not very responsive to correction. when lying down, try to give her belly rubs but after about 2 seconds she's too stimulated and runs around like crazy again.

I really hope this might help others who have a mentally ill dog! she's back to her full dose, and now after 3 days or so, she's back to normal. Well, normal for Winnie.

Also, I found the clomipramine online for $.18 per pill. My vet is getting it for about $.25 a pill and with his markup (which I understand--he has to make a living) it's about $.30 per pill. He's going to look into the office getting it from the place I found, or I'll just get it there with his Rx.
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Old 09-12-2011, 01:48 PM
 
Location: Montreal -> CT -> MA -> Montreal -> Ottawa
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Wow! That's just fabulous. It's absolutely, 100% clear that it's working on her! AWESOME!!!

Now that we've moved and will have a new vet -- although that's almost a year away when Artie needs his next annual -- I'm going to ask about a prescription for clomipramine. My old vet wanted more work done with a behaviorist rather than meds but, really, unless *I* was going to get tough on Artie (not happening), it wouldn't have helped. Behaviorist is here, Artie's terrific. Behaviorist leaves, Artie's nuts. I hope this new vet likes meds as much as I do. (I don't know quite what I meant by that -- I'm really, really tired.)
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Old 09-12-2011, 01:57 PM
 
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Just make sure YOU get copies of the old vet's records and take them to the new vet. If the old vet sends the records directly, you might run into the problem Elaine on seinfeld had, where one doctor makred her "difficult" and every other doctor got it in her records.
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Old 09-12-2011, 02:01 PM
 
Location: Montreal -> CT -> MA -> Montreal -> Ottawa
16,648 posts, read 26,620,346 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TracySam View Post
Just make sure YOU get copies of the old vet's records and take them to the new vet. If the old vet sends the records directly, you might run into the problem Elaine on seinfeld had, where one doctor makred her "difficult" and every other doctor got it in her records.
BAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

I actually got a copy of Artie's file before I left CT. Maybe I can doctor them up, no pun intended, to make him sound WORSE so that he'll definitely get an Rx.
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Old 09-12-2011, 03:18 PM
 
3,593 posts, read 10,643,727 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DandJ View Post
Wow! That's just fabulous. It's absolutely, 100% clear that it's working on her! AWESOME!!!

Now that we've moved and will have a new vet -- although that's almost a year away when Artie needs his next annual -- I'm going to ask about a prescription for clomipramine. My old vet wanted more work done with a behaviorist rather than meds but, really, unless *I* was going to get tough on Artie (not happening), it wouldn't have helped. Behaviorist is here, Artie's terrific. Behaviorist leaves, Artie's nuts. I hope this new vet likes meds as much as I do. (I don't know quite what I meant by that -- I'm really, really tired.)
Wow Dawn - I'm really hoping that its because you are tired that you are making a statement like this, or that maybe I'm misunderstanding you. I think your old vet was absolutely 100% correct! This med can have some very nasty side effects for some dogs. Some can be potentially life threatening. Besides - the meds could also be totally ineffective. Like for humans, it works for some and not for others.

Clomipramine (Clomicalm®) - Page 1

There is no "magic pill" out there for human or canine!
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Old 09-12-2011, 03:30 PM
 
Location: Montreal -> CT -> MA -> Montreal -> Ottawa
16,648 posts, read 26,620,346 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Va-Cat View Post
Wow Dawn - I'm really hoping that its because you are tired that you are making a statement like this, or that maybe I'm misunderstanding you. I think your old vet was absolutely 100% correct! This med can have some very nasty side effects for some dogs. Some can be potentially life threatening. Besides - the meds could also be totally ineffective. Like for humans, it works for some and not for others.

Clomipramine (Clomicalm®) - Page 1

There is no "magic pill" out there for human or canine!
Cat, I probably make Artie sound worse than he is, although he IS awful when he's alone with me (he's protecting me) and we encounter another dog or person.

We've had behaviorists work with Artie and, like I said, he's an angel with them. Once they leave and it's just Artie and me, he goes back into protective mode. I didn't know that there were awful (or worse!) side effects of the medication. I'll do more reading before I even suggest it as a "like to have" for Artie.

Artie's vet file is full of "difficult patient" and "must muzzle" -- and that's after I've left the room. But, I know, many dogs don't like to be poked and prodded at the vet. I get that.

I'd just like him to be able to CALM DOWN! sometimes. Here we are, in my office. I'm working. He's lying on his futon. Kids are outside playing and now, instead of lying down, Artie is freaking out, barking at the window. Sudden movements? Artie doesn't like it. Sudden or loud noises? Nope, he doesn't like that either. He's always ON GUARD instead of chilling out. I want him to relax. I want him to enjoy life, knowing that I'll protect him, not the other way around. That's really all I want. Tall order for such a short dog.
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Old 09-12-2011, 03:46 PM
 
3,593 posts, read 10,643,727 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DandJ View Post
Cat, I probably make Artie sound worse than he is, although he IS awful when he's alone with me (he's protecting me) and we encounter another dog or person.

We've had behaviorists work with Artie and, like I said, he's an angel with them. Once they leave and it's just Artie and me, he goes back into protective mode. I didn't know that there were awful (or worse!) side effects of the medication. I'll do more reading before I even suggest it as a "like to have" for Artie.

Artie's vet file is full of "difficult patient" and "must muzzle" -- and that's after I've left the room. But, I know, many dogs don't like to be poked and prodded at the vet. I get that.

I'd just like him to be able to CALM DOWN! sometimes. Here we are, in my office. I'm working. He's lying on his futon. Kids are outside playing and now, instead of lying down, Artie is freaking out, barking at the window. Sudden movements? Artie doesn't like it. Sudden or loud noises? Nope, he doesn't like that either. He's always ON GUARD instead of chilling out. I want him to relax. I want him to enjoy life, knowing that I'll protect him, not the other way around. That's really all I want. Tall order for such a short dog.
I know and I get it. I've raised a problem child too. My Gator has our vet going to new levels of bite protection whenever he has to go in for a check up or treatment. He is especially bad now that he has gotten old, arthritic and cranky. Some things we have to accept but others can be addressed. I know you are a softy with your little man but getting firm with him is the best way you are going to correct his issues. Medicating should be a last resort. This med plays with the chemicals in the brain and can also cause liver damage. Please try one last time working with a trainer. I know you'll be able to find one that not only works well with Artie but also works well with YOU!
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Old 09-12-2011, 04:00 PM
 
Location: Montreal -> CT -> MA -> Montreal -> Ottawa
16,648 posts, read 26,620,346 times
Reputation: 26595
Quote:
Originally Posted by Va-Cat View Post
I know and I get it. I've raised a problem child too. My Gator has our vet going to new levels of bite protection whenever he has to go in for a check up or treatment. He is especially bad now that he has gotten old, arthritic and cranky. Some things we have to accept but others can be addressed. I know you are a softy with your little man but getting firm with him is the best way you are going to correct his issues. Medicating should be a last resort. This med plays with the chemicals in the brain and can also cause liver damage. Please try one last time working with a trainer. I know you'll be able to find one that not only works well with Artie but also works well with YOU!
Thanks, Cat.

xoxo
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Old 09-12-2011, 07:00 PM
 
Location: Old Town Alexandria
14,505 posts, read 23,726,242 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TracySam View Post
She had X-rays of every part of her body after the accident, including the skull. No head trauma. My boyfriend witnessed the actual incident and saw the tire run over only her lower body.

But yes, I often wonder if she has some kind of brain damage.

No I don't want her on a benzodiazepine like valium, because those are habituating. she would gradually require more and more to get the same desired result, and if it's ever stopped abruptly, she would have withdrawal. I don't want her on anything "addictive." Benzos are fine for single-use, occasional things, but not daily. She'll end up trying to by them on the street.
could be PTSD (dont laugh) my vet told me Kimora a shelter dog I adopted had PTSD as she was abused....she still is wary (after 4 yrs in happy home) of new people and any broom or hand held object....If your poor dog was almost run over, Id think her residual memory has imprinted that....they say dogs have a good memory for long term trauma.....jmo hope this helps...
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