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Old 08-06-2011, 02:32 PM
 
Location: SE Michigan
6,191 posts, read 15,355,696 times
Reputation: 10248

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I think we can agree to disagree, especially since I think we both speak from the heart. I do believe that people who own demonized "bad boy" breeds ought to take a higher road and a higher level of responsibility. Pit bulls were bred for vermin-killing and dog fighting; like many terriers. Go to any reputable pit bull site and you will see this advice. Just like herding dogs are bred for herding and moving stock, pointers will point, terriers will go after vermin, Daschunds will dig, Akitas and Rottweillers will be more likely to be dog-aggressive, working dogs generally will be higher-drive and more diffciult to manage than, say, Bichons or Havanese.

A drivey or dog-aggressive dog is not a fault. The PC thinking that a dog- or animal-aggressive dog is "defective" and ought to be killed is wrong. This is normal and acceptable for many dogs. It doesn't make the dog at fault; but it does put extra onus on the owner to be responsible.

If all we have left in the dog breed kingdom are soft, compliant pet dogs mixes of no determinant breed (like those stupid "Labradoodles" or "Goldendoodles" or other designer dogs) with little or no drive and no working ability, this would be a sad day indeed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrs1885 View Post
I respectfully disagree. Pits are actually one of the most stable temperament dogs out there. Yes, in the hands of a moron, it's possible that the dog will bite. But that's true of ANY breed. Think of what people would think of the Mastiff if it became to criminal's breed of choice. It would also bite, but it would be a 150 pound biter as opposed to a 45 pound biter. Would do way more damage.

Pitbulls are wonderful dogs for any responsible owner, not just those that are hyper-responsible. Sadly, they're incredibly popular with the criminal element and because of that, there are many, many of them. Because there are so many and because the morons of the world choose them more than any other breed, it makes it look like they're an aggressive breed that needs an experienced handler, but that's not true at all. The rottie was thought of the same way for a while. And the dobie, chow chow, shephard, etc. Many breeds have gone through this. And like all breeds, it wasn't the dog that was the problem; it was the owner.

Instead of saying a certain breed should only be owned by someone of a certain amount of experience, we need to be saying that all owners of all breeds should have a certain amount of experience or education. I've had more - WAY more - problems with doxies than pitties. And if any breed needs a very highly educated or experienced owner, I think it's someone with Jack / Parsons Russel. Those are wicked smart dogs that are very highly active. They are not first time dogs in most cases and not for a lazy owner. I don't even have a typical terrier breed in my house because I know they don't fit in with my pack and lifestyle. But even so, I'd never say they're a 'bad' breed. Nor would I mandate that they only go to homes with highly trained owners because not every single J/PRT is like that.

 
Old 08-06-2011, 02:45 PM
 
Location: La lune et les étoiles
17,611 posts, read 19,033,833 times
Reputation: 18918
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiroptera View Post
I think we can agree to disagree, especially since I think we both speak from the heart. I do believe that people who own demonized "bad boy" breeds ought to take a higher road and a higher level of responsibility. Pit bulls were bred for vermin-killing and dog fighting; like many terriers. Go to any reputable pit bull site and you will see this advice. Just like herding dogs are bred for herding and moving stock, pointers will point, terriers will go after vermin, Daschunds will dig, Akitas and Rottweillers will be more likely to be dog-aggressive, working dogs generally will be higher-drive and more diffciult to manage than, say, Bichons or Havanese.

A drivey or dog-aggressive dog is not a fault. The PC thinking that a dog- or animal-aggressive dog is "defective" and ought to be killed is wrong. This is normal and acceptable for many dogs. It doesn't make the dog at fault; but it does put extra onus on the owner to be responsible.

If all we have left in the dog breed kingdom are soft, compliant pet dogs mixes of no determinant breed (like those stupid "Labradoodles" or "Goldendoodles" or other designer dogs) with little or no drive and no working ability, this would be a sad day indeed.
All dogs have the propensity to bite or be aggressive. People think that just because my cute little pekingese looks like this.....



...that he can't do any damage. Trust me, he can.
 
Old 08-06-2011, 03:01 PM
 
Location: SE Michigan
6,191 posts, read 15,355,696 times
Reputation: 10248
Yeah, but he cannot do the same level of damage as a pit pull, Rottweiler, Chow, mastiff-x, etc.

Thanks for playing but your ill-mannered and poorly-trained Peke is your problem to deal with all on your lonesome, not a societal problem. Pekes are notoriously ill-tempered. Thanks for letting the Teeming Millions know you are a clueless owner with yet another vicious, untrained little 8-lb dog you can't control routinely blows you off, though.


Quote:
Originally Posted by calipoppy View Post
All dogs have the propensity to bite or be aggressive. People think that just because my cute little pekingese looks like this.....



...that he can't do any damage. Trust me, he can.
 
Old 08-06-2011, 04:39 PM
 
Location: zone 5
7,330 posts, read 13,229,355 times
Reputation: 9611
Should I warn him about pit bulls?
Attached Thumbnails
Got my first warning about pitbulls yesterday-810.jpg  
 
Old 08-06-2011, 05:19 PM
 
Location: Louisiana
4,584 posts, read 5,018,337 times
Reputation: 4346
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiroptera View Post
Yeah, but he cannot do the same level of damage as a pit pull, Rottweiler, Chow, mastiff-x, etc.

Thanks for playing but your ill-mannered and poorly-trained Peke is your problem to deal with all on your lonesome, not a societal problem. Pekes are notoriously ill-tempered. Thanks for letting the Teeming Millions know you are a clueless owner with yet another vicious, untrained little 8-lb dog you can't control routinely blows you off, though.
Yikes....
 
Old 08-06-2011, 05:23 PM
 
Location: La lune et les étoiles
17,611 posts, read 19,033,833 times
Reputation: 18918
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiroptera View Post
Yeah, but he cannot do the same level of damage as a pit pull, Rottweiler, Chow, mastiff-x, etc.

Thanks for playing but your ill-mannered and poorly-trained Peke is your problem to deal with all on your lonesome, not a societal problem. Pekes are notoriously ill-tempered. Thanks for letting the Teeming Millions know you are a clueless owner with yet another vicious, untrained little 8-lb dog you can't control routinely blows you off, though.
LOL...and speaking of ill-mannered, vicious and untrained
 
Old 08-06-2011, 05:47 PM
 
Location: Texas
43,546 posts, read 52,637,306 times
Reputation: 70794
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrs1885 View Post
I don't think that 'many' people are like that, but yes, there are certainly poor pet owners and some of them own pitbulls. What does that prove?? And don't say pitbulls are more likely to be aggressive, because there are plenty published articles, stats and studies to prove otherwise. They consistently score in the top 90th percentile in temperament testing, higher than many breeds considered 'mans best friend'.

So............. your 'point' is totally invalid. It's just more ranting from someone that's totally ignorant on this subject. You're someone that's obviously willing to buy any BS media hype that your fed, no nearly intelligent enough to do the homework and get the facts yourself. You're simply regurgitating inaccurate, biased information. And you want the people here that ARE educated and have taken the time to actually get the facts themselves to believe you? Mmmmmmmm yeh, not going to happen.
Well, as someone who sews up dog bites for a living, I think I do have an 'educated' perspective. What it sounds like you have is some emotional bleeding heart perspective. I don't have any skin in the game. I love all dogs and even volunteered at the shelter and have helped socialize pits.

And my only point is that people keep saying, "Well, if you train them..." Well, hardly anyone trains their dogs, PERIOD. So that's a giant IF right there.
 
Old 08-06-2011, 05:51 PM
 
82 posts, read 453,888 times
Reputation: 170
meh, message boards often make me think of a bukowski quote,

"If you think I have gone crazy try picking a flower from the garden of your neighbor."
 
Old 08-06-2011, 07:00 PM
 
Location: San Antonio, Texas
1,692 posts, read 3,422,654 times
Reputation: 4115
Quote:
Originally Posted by calipoppy View Post
All dogs have the propensity to bite or be aggressive. People think that just because my cute little pekingese looks like this.....



...that he can't do any damage. Trust me, he can.
LOL... my point exactly some of the most determined dogs I have ever known are the little ones with BIG DOG personality.

BY the way love your ankle bitter. Too Handsome by far!
 
Old 08-06-2011, 10:18 PM
 
Location: Mountains of middle TN
5,244 posts, read 14,018,762 times
Reputation: 6063
Quote:
Originally Posted by stan4 View Post
Well, as someone who sews up dog bites for a living, I think I do have an 'educated' perspective. What it sounds like you have is some emotional bleeding heart perspective. I don't have any skin in the game. I love all dogs and even volunteered at the shelter and have helped socialize pits.

And my only point is that people keep saying, "Well, if you train them..." Well, hardly anyone trains their dogs, PERIOD. So that's a giant IF right there.
So, your specialty is dealing with people who come to you in a time of emotional turmoil, after a very traumatic event in their life. You have experience with humans, not dogs. Volunteering at a shelter does not make you an expert, I hate to tell you. Being in the medical field in whatever area you specialize does not make you a dog expert. It simply makes you someone that sees the after effects of humans who haven't properly socialized and trained a dog. It makes you someone that sees the effects of a dog bite, but not the dog that did the biting. Which truly doesn't matter because my guess is you couldn't accurately name the breeds anyway. I've met very few people who can do better than 50% of the breed testing. I seldom do better than 70% myself. So you're simply taking the word of a person who was just involved in a very chaotic and distressing situation and very few people in a situation like that can give you an accurate account of what happen. Add in the fact that few people can accurately give you the breed or breed mix of a dog in a situation like that, and you have the reason so many 'pitbulls' bite people. I've seen labs and hounds and dogs like the Dogue that have that more square face listed as a pitbull in shelters all over the place. I've seen veterinarians that have listed dogs improperly. So, out of curiosity, what in the world makes you think you're an expert??

I have 18 years experience in rescue and 19 years experience in training. I started with rottweilers and worked with some of the top rottie breeders and showers in the country. I handled these dogs back when they were the 'evil canine' in the country. I was around the people that worked with the evil Chow Chows and GSD's back when they were the demon spawn of the country. So if I've got all these years behind me and I can't do better than 70%, what in the world makes you think you know so much more? How many classes have you taken on sheltering, veterinary courses, etc? Granted, I'm no vet, but I've been heavily involved with them for years because of my career path.

This is a fad that's been going on for decades in this country, and the breed changes frequently. As the 'evil breeds' have been demonized and banned in the larger inner cities where so many of the criminals have used them to buy themselves some time when the PoPo comes to the door or when rival gangs show up, they just find another breed. Well, about 20 years or so ago the pittie was tagged. And now they're battling the same crap that the other breeds have battled for so many decades. And apparently that's thanks in part to people like you that have no experience in the field, but still insisting on telling people that are too ignorant to know any better that you do and that it's a 'dog problem'. It's not a dog problem, it's a people problem and you're a large part of that.

Do I have a personal stake in this? You bet. There's a breed of dog that's being destroyed because of ignorant people like you and I don't think it's fair. I was involved as it was winding down for the rotties. And I'm involved now. And I've had both breeds and I've had them around my children and strangers and I've never had a single problem. I've had over 50 dogs in my home at a single time, all from different shelters and different background and not had a single issue. Know why? Because I always made sure my dogs were well trained and socialized. And I didn't just do it with my shepherds and rotties and pitbull breeds and chows and boxers, etc. I also do the same with my chihuahuas and cocker spaniels and poodles, because although they may not cause as much damage when they bite, they are dogs and have teeth and they still can bite and that shouldn't be accepted from any breed of dog, period. It's called being responsible.

You're right there are plenty irresponsible owners out there that don't train and socialize their dogs. Luckily most dogs have very good temperaments on their own so it's not an issue. And that's not based at all on the breed a dog is. Proof?

American Pitbull Terrier (there are multiple breeds that make up the 'pitbull' catch all breed, but they have them as well as many other breeds listed here) is listed at an 86.4% score.

ATTS Breed Statistics | American Temperament Test Society, Inc.

ATTS is a non-biased group that's not affiliated with any other breed groups of any kind. They've been doing annual testing since 1977. They probably have a little more experience here than you.

Moving on.........

Quote:
Every study completed to date has found breed specific legislation to be completely ineffective in reducing the incidence of dog bites. Now a study of pet dogs in Spain published in The Journal of Veterinary Behavior, offers new insight into why. The study found that the so called dangerous breeds simply behave no differently from dogs in general when it comes to behaviors likely to lead to biting.
Banned breeds are no more aggressive than others, new study finds | National Canine Research Council

Hmmm..... Their study was published in the Journal of Veterinary Behavior. How many times have your studies been published in there? Because I'm thinking they might know a bit more on this subject than you too.

Before posting on a subject that you obviously have very little knowledge on, trying to claim your 'experience sewing people up' makes you an expert, you might want to check your facts so you don't look like a total moron.
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