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Old 10-25-2011, 05:30 PM
 
Location: Northern CA
12,770 posts, read 9,791,814 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ParallelJJCat View Post
Pit bulls are dogs. Dogs can be aggressive absent of any negative human impact. For one, it comes down to how you define negative impact. An owner who does not socialize their dog or provides poor training can have as much impact as an owner who is outright abusive.

Every dog is an individual, and there are various factors that go into determining if that individual will be aggressive or not. Their owners can certainly play a very large role in this. But so can genetics...a dog that comes from two aggressive parents is more likely to be aggressive. This can be overcome with training, but that isn't a dog that a newbie pet owners should have.

Because pits are so popular and some are indeed used for less tasteful purposes, you will have pits that are genetically slated toward aggressive behavior. But this can be true of ANY breed...I've seen goldens that were aggressive that did not have abusive or neglectful owners. Which is why it is important for dog owners to realize that dogs are DOGS, and any dog can bite...so socialize young and have some basic understanding of their social needs.
Can't disagree with any of that, good points.
My Cody was a rescue. She had had to fight for every morsel of food, in her previous life. I heard that they would just throw a bag of food out the back door, and let them go at it. So her food aggression was learned behavior, and human caused. We 'managed' it as best we could.
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Old 10-26-2011, 01:06 PM
 
4,919 posts, read 19,751,489 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ParallelJJCat View Post
Every dog is an individual, and there are various factors that go into determining if that individual will be aggressive or not. Their owners can certainly play a very large role in this. But so can genetics...a dog that comes from two aggressive parents is more likely to be aggressive. This can be overcome with training, but that isn't a dog that a newbie pet owners should have.
Thank you for the well stated comment.

That is exactly what I belive, all dogs regardless of breed, could become vicious without any human involvement. They can be raise in a loving caring home and still attcak their owner. They can be raised in a well balanced enviroment with other dogs and one day, snap and go bonkers. It can be a yorkie, a beagel, a german shepard, a great dane, a mutt and even a Pitbull.

I find it disturbing (or should I say laughable) that so many pit bull groups and individuals attempt to always claim (as you can read on this forum over and over again) that it has nothing to do with the breed and is always the result of the owner. Someone went so far as to claim that there has never been a pitbull attack where it was raised in a loving and caring home. Of course everyone with a brain knows that's not true. The reality is that any breed, can turn on people, other animals or its family, for no reason that something within the dog that had NO external factors.

So whenever they make such ridiculios claims, less people start beleiving them and that is the most harmful thing to that breed.
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Old 10-26-2011, 01:44 PM
 
Location: zone 5
7,330 posts, read 13,137,567 times
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I believe that if you read posts with a more open mind, ParallelJJCat's statement is exactly the point that most pit bull supporters are making. Not that there's never been an aggressive pit bull with responsible owners in the history of the world. Just that, responsibly owned they are no more likely to be aggressive to humans than any other dog. And yes, they are much more likely to be irresponsibly owned.
Anyway, the OP appears to be gone, and who could blame her. At least some of us were trying to offer suggestions.
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Old 10-26-2011, 02:45 PM
 
Location: St. Louis, Missouri
9,350 posts, read 16,737,662 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subject2change View Post
I believe that if you read posts with a more open mind, ParallelJJCat's statement is exactly the point that most pit bull supporters are making. Not that there's never been an aggressive pit bull with responsible owners in the history of the world. Just that, responsibly owned they are no more likely to be aggressive to humans than any other dog. And yes, they are much more likely to be irresponsibly owned.
Anyway, the OP appears to be gone, and who could blame her. At least some of us were trying to offer suggestions.

^^^ yes....

and pf ... i still maintain that it really does not have to do with the breed... but with the individual dog and its issues and circumstances....
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Old 10-26-2011, 08:55 PM
 
Location: Brawndo-Thirst-Mutilator-Nation
16,279 posts, read 16,379,192 times
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If it was me..............well, I would get rid or them ASAP..............they could end up doing the same thing to the kiddies.
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Old 10-26-2011, 08:57 PM
 
Location: Northern CA
12,770 posts, read 9,791,814 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PacificFlights View Post
Thank you for the well stated comment.

That is exactly what I belive, all dogs regardless of breed, could become vicious without any human involvement. They can be raise in a loving caring home and still attcak their owner. They can be raised in a well balanced enviroment with other dogs and one day, snap and go bonkers. It can be a yorkie, a beagel, a german shepard, a great dane, a mutt and even a Pitbull.

I find it disturbing (or should I say laughable) that so many pit bull groups and individuals attempt to always claim (as you can read on this forum over and over again) that it has nothing to do with the breed and is always the result of the owner. Someone went so far as to claim that there has never been a pitbull attack where it was raised in a loving and caring home. Of course everyone with a brain knows that's not true. The reality is that any breed, can turn on people, other animals or its family, for no reason that something within the dog that had NO external factors.

So whenever they make such ridiculios claims, less people start beleiving them and that is the most harmful thing to that breed.
Quote:
Someone went so far as to claim that there has never been a pitbull attack where it was raised in a loving and caring home. Of course everyone with a brain knows that's not true. The reality is that any breed, can turn on people, other animals or its family, for no reason that something within the dog that had NO external factors.
That is not what she said, and certainly not what I said.
What I attempted to get across to you is the difference between human aggression and dog aggression - they are 2 entirely different things and unrelated. There is nothing unusual about dog aggression in pitbulls, however human aggression is highly unusual, not normal, and atypical for this breed. The latter is caused by humans, either purposely or inadvertently by lack of socialization. Dogs do not attack their owners, like a wild animal or a wolf might - there is something very wrong when this happens - fortunely it is a very rare occurrence. So do not paint pitbulls with this twisted fear you have. You stand a greater chance of being attacked by a shark on dry land, than attacked by a pit. That's reality as opposed to newspaper sensationalism.

Last edited by claudhopper; 10-26-2011 at 09:24 PM..
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Old 10-26-2011, 09:12 PM
 
Location: Northern CA
12,770 posts, read 9,791,814 times
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Here is your typical pit owner. I had a lowlife neighbor in this little house next door that attracts these types for whatever reason. The price was cheap. I found out after he moved out, that he hadn't paid his mortgage for well over a year, he waited them out.
He grew pot in his backyard. He gets a pitbull pup. He leaves it out in the cold, all by itself, 24/7. I guess they fed it, all I ever heard was them opening the door to scold it for something. It cried all the time. It was horrible for me to witness this. I called AC and was told there is no law that requres them to pay attention to a puppy, duh. I just wanted a welfare check done, but that wasn't going to happen. There was a period of time, I hoped the little dog would die of exposure or something, so it could end it's suffering.
After about 4-5 months of this, the dog was gone. I don't know what happened to it, but that dog will be messed up. Most all of my rescues carried scars of mistreatment whether inside or out.
This particular idiot thought the dog would guard his pot plants - or at least scare off an intruder. It would have barked, that's as much as it would've done. It was scared of everything, because it had not been exposed to anything or anybody.
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Old 10-26-2011, 09:25 PM
 
Location: Northern CA
12,770 posts, read 9,791,814 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tickyul View Post
If it was me..............well, I would get rid or them ASAP..............they could end up doing the same thing to the kiddies.
Get rid of what, the kids?
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Old 10-27-2011, 03:13 PM
 
2,226 posts, read 1,753,535 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ParallelJJCat View Post
Just going to echo other posters-- dog and human aggression are not the same thing. Many pit bulls are dog aggressive, or become dog aggressive as they reach sexual maturity. In many cases it is a manageable situation.

However, it sounds like the OP probably has a situation where the two dogs are fighting over a limited resource (the owners). With pits, true dog aggressive tends to more constant...they react strongly to other dogs at all times, or to same sex dogs at all times. If it was a true case of dog aggression, I would expect the male to be reacting to ALL dogs he sees he on the street, or to be reacting to the female on a more constant basis. Dog aggression doesn't switch on and off like that. It's an instinct, like herding in a border collie...they don't sometimes have a strong drive but usually not.

Since he's usually fine with the female, and the OP hasn't mentioned other instances of aggression with him, there's probably something like a dominance issue going on (though I don't necessarily agree with dominance as the term is commonly used in dog training). This can be a good thing, as true dog aggression is more instinctive and can be more difficult to correct. If the issue is lack of socialization or fighting for a resource, it's a training issue, which is more fixable.
Have to agree with this post. It did sound like a jealousy/protective issue rather than agressions towards the other dog on a normal basis, which would be easily avoided. Simply do not play with them togehter. But unfortunatly with pits, they can be so destructive with one arguement, actually even deadly....so it can be an issue of getting rid of one or the other and keeping only one dog. That would be sad, so I'll reiterate about getting a Cesar Milan book on Bully dogs. He seems to be the best of the best in handling some of the physological issues with them. I know I had a German Shepherd that never showed people agression or even agression to any dog I brought into the home. He lived with pomeranians and other german shepherds (all opposite sex though) also cats. He was even terrified of kittens and they could back him into a corner in a heartbeat and he would never, never attack them. But a dog walking across the street when he was accidently off leash a couple times in his lifetime and it was an immediate "kill him" reaction and a couple bad fights to stop. So you never know.
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Old 10-27-2011, 03:41 PM
 
4,919 posts, read 19,751,489 times
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[quote=latetotheparty;21447821and pf ... i still maintain that it really does not have to do with the breed... but with the individual dog and its issues and circumstances....[/quote]
So, if pitbaulls were raised in a sanctuary enviromenbst, void of himan contact, you are saying that after a generation of having NO human contact to corrupt them, you would have no fear of walking into the sanctuary with your family?

Quote:
Originally Posted by claudhopper View Post
however human aggression is highly unusual, not normal, and atypical for this breed. The latter is caused by humans, either purposely or inadvertently by lack of socialization. Dogs do not attack their owners, like a wild animal or a wolf might - there is something very wrong when this happens - fortunely it is a very rare occurrence.
But it is a trait of the dog by virtue of human socilaization. What your saying confrims what my vet (highly experience with aggressive animals) stated, that a pitbull's huiman agression is tamed by human socialization. Absent human contact that keeps it in check, they are human aggressive by nature.

He also said that Pitbull are in the higher percentage of domesticated to feral. That means that when removed from humans, their natural human aggression that is part of the breed will be in the upper 50% over the baseline of the German Shepard. Essentially, it is human contact that supresses their aggression, so long as it's not abusive or threatening. he also said that the time period for PitBulls (even those raise in close and loving human contact) to cross over is in the higher 75% percentage group.

So if you were to take 100 dog breeds and removed them from their loving careing and responsible ownership life, or raised in isolation without human contact, a Pitbull would be one of 50 breeds that most likely will become human agressive and one of 25 that will do it faster than any other breed. Now, that still means that 50 other breeds will be right along side that Pitbull for becoming human agressive without human calming contact and right with 25 others who will do it faster than a baseline breed. That is the points that Pitbull owners can't accept that there is something within the breed itself that makes the breed (as well as many others) dangerious to the public where nothing in the dogs life (except for the breed itself) contributed to that aggression.

I own an agressive breed animal and if you asked me is the animal is human or animal agressive, I would say as a species, yes it is and it is by nature. Although many (if not most) are wonderful loving pets and have never exhibited any agression towards other humans or animals, it would be absolutely stupid to claim ever that the specics itself is not subject to human and animal agresion far greater than any other similar domesticated animal. So face the facts, a pitbull by its very nature of the breed has a certain level of human and animal agression in its genes that is on the higher end of the breed chart.

You woukld be 100% correct to agrue that half the other breeds of deomseticated dogs are just as likely to turn human and animal agressive, and you would be 100% correct to argue that that 25% of all the other breeds will do so just as quickly, but to argue that the breed is not by nature human and animal agressive is laugable if not loonacy.

And that is my reason for being againt PitBull bans because half the other dogs or taking the most extreame case, 25% of all other breeds are equal to or maybe even more agressive to humans when devoid of human contact than a Pitbull. Since nothing is being done about them, its unfair to single out this breed along. This is especially true because this particular breed is more often owned in a way that brings out the agressions. Look back over the years and as people owned other breeds for their "reputation" or were owned for the "machoism" they instilled to the owner, other breeds interchanged the fear level. However, thiose breed loyalist didn;t white-wash the natural breed traits, they accepted them and used it to highlight that these natural aggressions were low except for when the dog was being groomed to meet the image instead of just being the breed.

Doberman owners will admit that the breed is subject to agression by nature, but that agression is actually low, very low, so if the overall incidents have exceeeded the data of where that aggression should be, you have crossed from the breed to the enviroment and people started looking at the enviroment causing the agression and no longer at the breed being this mudering dog. Rememebr, they were once the intense subject of breed specific bans. Today, they still face the left over prejudice in some areas, but overall dobermans are more accepted like any other dog due mainly because their loyalist didn;t try to pretend the breed wasn;t what it was. By embracing exactly what the breed is (including possible agression veruses Pitbull owners that are in denial about any agression as a breed trait) people became educated and were able to tell the diffrence between the breeds traits and human exploitation of those traits. Pitbull loyalist whants the world to ignore any posible breed trait and make it all enviroment, a sure way to go nowhere fast.
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