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Old 01-16-2012, 03:07 PM
 
9,856 posts, read 13,389,211 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRational View Post
The implication may have been that specific breeds, or at least specific dogs, or perhaps dogs of specific people...

In short though... dogs which can't be relied upon to be left alone... SHOULDN'T be left alone.
And NO, crating them for the 8-10 or more hours of a typical work & commute day is not the solution.
It's certainly not a solution for the dog.
So let me ask again. Which would you prefer: A dog to be alone for 9 hours/day, but then have someone the rest of the time, or the dog be euthanized in the city pound?

Which option is the better one for the dog?
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Old 01-16-2012, 03:23 PM
 
410 posts, read 643,670 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hnsq View Post
So let me ask again. Which would you prefer: A dog to be alone for 9 hours/day, but then have someone the rest of the time, or the dog be euthanized in the city pound?

Which option is the better one for the dog?
Why are those the only options for you?
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Old 01-16-2012, 03:24 PM
 
Location: The Great State of Arkansas
5,981 posts, read 16,281,396 times
Reputation: 7572
Folks, also remember - many dogs are not pinging off the walls every second from activity or lack thereof. Some can sleep up to 20 hours per day! Mostly there's an average of 12-14 or so. As has been previously said, if the dog can comfortably stand up, turn around, stretch a little bit - you aren't really asking them to do something they don't want to do anyway.

I'm at home all day with mine, but the Mastiff goes to his crate and stays there for 8-9 hours. It is huge - I call it the guest bedroom :-) If I am going to have to be gone longer than a couple hours, he may get to spend another 2-3 in the crate. (Flamers, bring it on - he's safe). My reasoning is that he IS safe - he's a puppy and still has little moments which he forgets his manners - and I have a multidog household with an old guy who is not appreciative of a 150 lbs. locomotive running through the house. My alternate plan is that I put the old boy in the bedroom and close the door and separate the others out with baby gates, which they all highly respect. Just keeps foolishness from getting out of hand.

True story about a month old - on a very windy and cold day, I went across the street to visit my father. All dogs were playing Free Bird in the house - they were fine - I wasn't going to be gone but about 45 minutes. While we were eating, my father said "whose dog is that in your front yard?". Well, it wasn't "whose", but "how many" - and every one of them belonged to me. The front door had blown open. Yes, my mistake. Yes, I goofed. and yes, they did what dogs do and went outside to check out the pee-mail. I am human, it happens. Fortunately, they all thought it was just delightful to see mom when she came tearing out of the house across the street and they did the Snoopy dance across the front yard because weren't we having so much fun??? There's 7 dogs, folks - that's a lot of different directions to run. Had I separated them or (so cruelly) crated them all for an hour, no problem. As it was, I looked like the Pied Piper leading the crew back to their abode. Had I not been home and had made a human error, we could have had a lot of missing pups - or pups in the street, picked up by AC, or picked up by God only knows who.

Crates are good in certain instances. No one wants puppy mill crates - but for safety and for the dog's comfort they are great. It's the humans who abuse the crates that make them a lousy idea.
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Old 01-16-2012, 03:41 PM
Status: "On The Lookout" (set 21 days ago)
 
Location: The Triad (NC)
28,381 posts, read 61,736,849 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hnsq View Post
So let me ask again. Which would you prefer:
Which option is the better one for the dog?
And again... THAT isn't the question.

If you insist on posing THIS question....
then it becomes about the choice of pet that person made...
or perhaps THEIR suitability for any dog.
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Old 01-16-2012, 04:04 PM
 
Location: Earth Wanderer, longing for the stars.
12,411 posts, read 16,425,717 times
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Perhaps for some dogs it may be cruel and for others, not.

Some dogs test at the mental level of a five year old child. Yes, I know the genes are different, but I would not think of crating a child.

I think it takes more vigilant supervision if you have a puppy and do not crate. I think a good parent who is 'always there' supervising a very young child has a better chance of having a better kid.

One thing that I must bring up, is that everyone in a family has a job, a contribution. The dog's contribution is protection and to alert us to possible intruders. I feel safer with a dog patrolling the house freely than caged. It scares me, as well, to think if there were a possible fire and I was in the basement and the dog were upstairs in a crate where I could not get at him.

I think a crate may be a final resort for a young dog whose family does not have the time to adequately supervise. Isn't that what we sometimes use cribs for?
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Old 01-16-2012, 04:16 PM
Status: "On The Lookout" (set 21 days ago)
 
Location: The Triad (NC)
28,381 posts, read 61,736,849 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goldengrain View Post
I think a crate may be a final resort for a young dog whose family does not have the time to adequately supervise.
Isn't that what we sometimes use cribs for?
Good analogy.

Call the CPS agency in your town and ask what they would do for a 5yo left alone, in a crib,
with no other human interaction, for 8-10 hours a day, 5 or more days a week...
Any guesses what would happen?

Being the center of attention for an hour or so after such treatment
doesn't ameliorate what came before.
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Old 01-16-2012, 06:27 PM
 
Location: The Great State of Arkansas
5,981 posts, read 16,281,396 times
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We can all dream of fires and intruders and horrible scenarios - but the original intent of the question was basic - is it CRUEL to crate? And the answer is simply that everyone can bring something different to the table here. Yes, it is cruel to crate for extended periods of time...or to lock in the basement or garage or back yard. More space does not equal better treatment. All that being said - see story above - had mine all been crated and the door blew open, it blew open, I lost a lot of heat, and I had a bad gas bill. As it is...I could have had a catastrophe. And I could have a catastrophe if the house catches on fire and I'm gone, or if the back gate goes down in a tornado, or I die and my dogs are crated or wandering free. Things happen, folks - they do - for those who despise crating, do a little more reading on the logic behind it. It's there - and I'm a convert from not crating at all to thinking there is some justification at some times. Anything done improperly or to excess can be cruel - anything done halfway (including obedience) borders on cruel - common sense, as usual, is the answer.
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Old 01-16-2012, 06:31 PM
 
Location: tampa bay
6,582 posts, read 6,790,770 times
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My lab loves her crate!!We never use it as a punishment...it's for when we leave the house...she is told to get in her cage and is given a treat...we lock it and leave.Some times when our kitten is annoying her she gets in her crate to escape him!!LOL
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Old 01-16-2012, 07:56 PM
 
Location: Santa Barbara CA
4,704 posts, read 10,121,886 times
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Years ago I thought crate training sounded cruel but when I go Jazz I decided to give it a try more so by mistake. I was visiting my parents when I adopted her and was at a class reunion that very night so my parents put her in the laundry room when they went to bed and she screamed and cried. I came home got the larger crate they had for the cats trips to the vets put the puppy in it and put it by my bed .The puppy was quite and slept the rest of the night. So I went out and bought a crate the next day and read about crate training. I am so glad I decided to give it a try and every other dog I have owned has been crate trained. The crate has always been their safe haven and they all have enjoyed going in on their own and sleeping . When I would leave for work Jazz would get nervous and she would go put her self in her crate before I left ( door was off) as she felt safe there. She was a high energy reactive dog and putting her in her crate for a few hours while I was home in the beginning taught her it was ok to just chill out. Later in life I would tell her to go to bed if she was getting too hyper and she would go to her crate and relax until I gave her a release word to come out.

Because my dogs are crate trained they have gotten to do some traveling with me and I have friends that love to have them come with me when I visit and at things like agility events they lay quietly in their crate. Used correctly a crate is a great tool . Oh yea I do live in an area that is prone to Wild fires and when we have had bad ones here and I did not feel safe leaving my dogs alone when I went to work fearing my area could be evacuated during the night BECAUSE they were crate trained the hospital I work for allowed me to bring them as long as I kept them crated in our department. They always have behaved very well when I have had to do that because they do feel safe in the crate and know that whining is not going to get them out so they stay quiet and my co workers have always been so impressed by that!

A funny side story I always kept a crate at my parents in the room I would sleep in when we visited and when Phoenix was living with them if they could not find her( she was deaf so calling her did not work) they learned to go look in the crate and sure enough she would be asleep inside. When she came back to live with me after my parents died and I adopted Chaos this past spring I always had to shoo Phoenix out of the crate to put the puppy in it at night.
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Old 01-16-2012, 09:39 PM
 
Location: West Virginia
12,386 posts, read 31,331,354 times
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I think having a dog in a crate makes it easy for the fire dept to find them! A loose dog in the house alone can get scared & Hide or even try to bite the Fireman trying to rescure them! After all How many dogs do you know thats seen a fireman in full gear & mask? Think about it!
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