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Old 06-18-2012, 12:01 PM
 
Location: In the middle...
1,253 posts, read 3,028,518 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxywench View Post
1: get the bite seen to...you got bitten by "a dog" (because they cant treat you apropriatly without Knowing what got you) and leave it at that, if your dogs are up to date on their rabies vaccine make sure to mention that you KNOW the dog was UTD on rabies but your not interested inpersuing the matter further. you do not have to tell them whos dog it was ect...just that its a dog bite.
this way they can clean you up and give you apropriate antibiotics if nessicary, animals mouths are "DIRTY" (they are carniovres afterall and thier mouths contain some serious bacteria)

2: are these girls spayed? Female on Female dog agression is INCREDIBLY common (same sex agression in females is even more common than in males!) and this risk is increaed in dogs who are not spay/netuered...if they are not already get that done for BOTH girls, hormones wont help the situation.

3: sounds to me youve got a resoucre guarder, unfortunatly even the tiniest thing can become "high value" (i knew a dog who was a resource guarder of socks and lint!) i suggest starting to practice crating/seperation if you dont already, feed each dog on schedual sperated by a barrier preferably IN their crates. treats not being used for training purposes should also be "in crate only" (or in their own rooms) and NEVER EVER EVER leave them alone unsupervised. if you have to go out, seperate, having a shower, seperate, need ot go pee, seperate (even if that isimply means taking one dog into the bathroom with you...) YOU need to eb the one to step in here...dogs are instinctual and it syour job to take control of any and all situations so THEY dont have to.
resource guarders are uslaly NEVER cured, but thy can turn their attentions, a food guarder can grow out of the food issue and then suddenly start guarding toys or a blanket ect...so while i applaud you for getting a trainer involved, its never a 100% cure.

get a break stick...yes this is a tool made "comon" by dog fighters however its also a tool that EVERY multiple dog home (especially if you have larger breeds) should have...in cae of emergency a break stick is a valuable tool to help break up a fight WITHOUT putting your hands neer the pointy end of the dog.

same sex agression is often also dominance based...so go back to basics, you need ot take control of your home and the BEST way to do that is through basic simple training...i reccomend using the NILF (nothing in life is free) method...and spend just 5-10 mins each day with eac dog individually literally putting them through their paces...do an "as many tricks in 5 minutes" challenge, or simply walk around your garden working on leash maners or off leash heel ect...ANYTHING that reaffirms you are the one in charge of the situation, ad that they need to "work" for you.

Its so easy for us as owners to become "lazy"...well my dog is trained so i dont need to make him sit every time, or i dont need to do anymore training with him ect...but dogs CRAE mental stimulation and leadership...
there not stupid....thewhole "be dominant to your dog" movment, alpha rolling ect is ridiculous, they know were NOT dogs..., but they do crave that stability, that bond and that stimulation that paying attention to YOU and you becomming a strong leading figure gives them...
and mental stimulation is as if not more valuable than physical excersize in terms of ridding any excess energy...a TIRED dog is a happy dog.
As usual, SPOT ON! ^ FOXY!
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Old 06-18-2012, 12:16 PM
 
Location: On The Road Full Time RVing
2,342 posts, read 2,900,539 times
Reputation: 2224
.
You don't know which dog started the fight because you were not in the room.

The dogs could have been sleeping, and one of them had a bad dream
and jumped on the other dog and there you go ...
a fight with the other dog trying to protect it's self.

Having the had hand checked and a tetnus shot
is more important than the dogs.

Watch the dogs for rabies even if they have be vaccinated.

Time will tell.
.
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Old 06-18-2012, 12:48 PM
 
Location: North Western NJ
6,591 posts, read 20,715,536 times
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sounds like your on the right track op with thinking a change in schedual might have exasperbated this...
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Old 06-18-2012, 12:52 PM
 
26,321 posts, read 24,422,016 times
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Your going to have to choose. Unfortunately these things happen, they were fighting b/c one is probably the Alpha female and the other one challenged, or visa versa.

There is nothing that will trigger it, that you will see, they will just constantly go at it, and hurt each other very badly.

My sister adopted a gal whose owner had two females, the same thing kept happening....

so....unfortunately, one of them refuses to submit to the other.
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Old 06-18-2012, 01:43 PM
 
1,004 posts, read 2,026,877 times
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Heard of a saying males fight for dominance females fight till the death. A good friend of mine has the same situation, however she just rotates dogs in crates. Not something I would do personally but it works for her.
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Old 06-18-2012, 03:07 PM
 
Location: On the west side of the Tetons
1,355 posts, read 2,080,962 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oleg Bach View Post
'All three dogs ate dinner" sounds like you humanized the mutts a bit to much and are surprised they behaved like animals- They are dogs. Take a look in a dogs mouth..then look at your own teeth- compare them. Dogs have a mouth that is used to rip flesh- to hunt and kill- to bite...

I suggest that you start to respect your dogs as dogs and not stress them out with gentle demands to be human- Dogs will be dogs ....and they will fight over territory - whether that territory be your affection or your ability to deliver them food. Next time a fight breaks out...show them you are the top dog and be tough...The most silly thing you can do is ask them or yourself why--------------they behave like dogs- control them- it's not cruel- If you don't control them they will control you- YOU ARE THE MASTER.
You don't know anything about me or my dogs, so I'm not sure how you came to these conclusions. I referred to it as dinner because of the time of the meal. It's not like I set them a place at the table and ask them what they'd like for dessert. My dogs all know that they sit politely and wait for me to place the food in each bowl. Then, I set the bowls down and they wait until I tell them "ok" before they begin eating. This is how it is at each meal. Because I know I have a dog who has a history of resource guarding, it would be stupid to leave them unattended, even though there has not been an issue in years. So, I supervise while they eat. I can leave a plate of food sitting on the coffee table and they won't touch it because I have not given them permission.

I do love them as much as anyone loves their human children, but I respect (and cherish) that they are dogs and not children and I try my best to provide them with what they need to be healthy, happy dogs.

I just spent some time speaking with my vet, who does know me and my dogs, and she agrees that the schedule changes and resulting stress are very likely the cause, since this behavior is so out of character for them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bumpus7 View Post
.
You don't know which dog started the fight because you were not in the room.

The dogs could have been sleeping, and one of them had a bad dream
and jumped on the other dog and there you go ...
a fight with the other dog trying to protect it's self.

Having the had hand checked and a tetnus shot
is more important than the dogs.

Watch the dogs for rabies even if they have be vaccinated.

Time will tell.
.
I was in the room, which is why I was so completely taken by surprise. There was no warning growl, no raised hackles, nothing that signaled to me there was about to be a problem. Rabies is 100% not an issue.
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Old 06-18-2012, 04:05 PM
 
Location: North Western NJ
6,591 posts, read 20,715,536 times
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while i do agree that true female on female dog agression can be an uncurable situation...
a single fight despite being fairly brutal is NOT a reason to automatically assume this is same sex agression and certinaly not a reason to "choose" between the 2...

it MIGHT come to that point unfortunatly, where you do have to choose to keep one or the other or to crate and rotate as ts called...BUT i would certinaly not even consider 1 fight to be the do all end all. its a very rash and illogical onclusion to come to when we as humans dont knwo ALL the aspects involved.

OP i definatly suggest trying to get them back on the schedual they are used to, i would definatly suggest a break stick and id definatly suggest never leaving them unsupervised together...
i would also suggest you put some serious thought into what will happen if this does turn out to be true same sex agression (which in females will eventualy result in death if allowed females are serious when they fight as youve found out) it is a managable situation with time an effort evenif it is true same sex agression, but given this is a single attack and seemingly very random/out of the blue, i certianly wouldntbe going making any rash desicions just yet.
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Old 06-18-2012, 04:23 PM
 
Location: On the west side of the Tetons
1,355 posts, read 2,080,962 times
Reputation: 2616
Quote:
Originally Posted by foxywench View Post
while i do agree that true female on female dog agression can be an uncurable situation...
a single fight despite being fairly brutal is NOT a reason to automatically assume this is same sex agression and certinaly not a reason to "choose" between the 2...

it MIGHT come to that point unfortunatly, where you do have to choose to keep one or the other or to crate and rotate as ts called...BUT i would certinaly not even consider 1 fight to be the do all end all. its a very rash and illogical onclusion to come to when we as humans dont knwo ALL the aspects involved.

OP i definatly suggest trying to get them back on the schedual they are used to, i would definatly suggest a break stick and id definatly suggest never leaving them unsupervised together...
i would also suggest you put some serious thought into what will happen if this does turn out to be true same sex agression (which in females will eventualy result in death if allowed females are serious when they fight as youve found out) it is a managable situation with time an effort evenif it is true same sex agression, but given this is a single attack and seemingly very random/out of the blue, i certianly wouldntbe going making any rash desicions just yet.
Thanks for your helpful suggestions. I have an appointment with a behaviorist who specializes in BAT. She recommended buying Baskerville Ultra muzzles to use as needed for safety while we sort this out. So, I'm figuring out what sizes to order now. Where would I buy a break stick? I'd never even heard of that before.

Both dogs are staying here. Period. If that means keeping them separated permanently, so be it. However, I'm certainly not resigning myself to that at this point.
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Old 06-18-2012, 04:49 PM
 
Location: Ohio
15,121 posts, read 13,363,696 times
Reputation: 20547
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdna View Post
Thanks for your helpful suggestions. I have an appointment with a behaviorist who specializes in BAT. She recommended buying Baskerville Ultra muzzles to use as needed for safety while we sort this out. So, I'm figuring out what sizes to order now. Where would I buy a break stick? I'd never even heard of that before.

Both dogs are staying here. Period. If that means keeping them separated permanently, so be it. However, I'm certainly not resigning myself to that at this point.
That is exactly how I felt. As a last resort......I was going to see if I could have their canine teeth ground down and capped by an animal dentist. They put braces on dogs teeth and crowns on tiger's teeth.....so I didn't think that was going too far. They couldn't do much damange to one another without those fangs.

My vet mentioned several medications, including Prozac, that we can try with my problem kittty if it comes to that. So far it doesn't look like it will.....but it is nice to know the option is there. From my own research, many times these meds are only needed for 6 months or so.....then they can be weened off with good results.

I am soooo glad you have access to a behaviorist........that is by far your best option.....but you still have other options if that doesn't work.

I am confident you will figure this out and I sure hope you don't need surgery on your hand.
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Old 06-18-2012, 05:35 PM
 
4,919 posts, read 19,792,227 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdna View Post
Both dogs are staying here. Period. If that means keeping them separated permanently, so be it. However, I'm certainly not resigning myself to that at this point.
and is that for THEIR benefit (its in their best interst to live a life of permenenat seperation in the household) or for YOUR own personal benefit (you want it that way even if not the best for the dogs)?

Seriously, you have a major problem on your hands as evident by your inability to sperate and control them resulting in harm to you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdna View Post
I seriously thought they were going to tear each other apart. When I couldn't get them separated, I ran and got a pot of cold water to throw on them because I couldn't think of anything else. They didn't even notice. I finally got between them enough to get one in another room and closed the door with my foot while I dragged the other one away. They were still growling and trying to get each other the whole time. They're both cut and bleeding and Abby is going to need stitches in her arm.
add to all this the following:
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdna View Post
Abby is acting aggressive if she even sees Naala. Abby has always been very,very submissive.

I just have to keep them away from each other for now.
If you are unable to get the dog to stop growling or showing aggression at the other on your command, especially since they have lived together, you may have losyt the alpha control over that one.

Have you considered rehoming?
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