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Old 07-13-2012, 09:27 AM
 
1,195 posts, read 2,514,752 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snofarmer View Post
I don't support the breading of any dog that has to be born by C-section.



Yes I agree, the akc show folks have done a disservice to many dogs.
I do not suport what they have done but they are the only database for pedigrees in the US, we have to play nice with the akc. BUT we fallow the SV for our standards.

SV German Shepherd Breed Standard





Yes, the same happened with the GSD. a few wackows got them to change the standard to what they thought "looked" good standing still.



Like what?



Designer dogs ie muts. trend setters they do a big disservice to us all.
If you were doing responsible breeding that would be fine but you are not.




A photo copy does not cut it in the real world only the original.

Yes, as we have seen there are many unscrupulous BYBers and dog owners
That is why we use DNA. The use of DNA is very common these days.

As for the sales practiced used by some.
Trust me we are targeted all the time, when you have some of the best GSD's outside of Germany you become a target.
To each his own, however I am a bully fancier, so I have no issue w/ dogs that need a C-Section- and for the record C- Section has become much more rare in the last few years, as well as artificial insemination-

You may take issue w/ "designer breeds" however, you actually get the best of both worlds- You get the look you desire, as well as the functionality you want- for example Olde English Bulldogges have the orignal EB look, with the functionality of a agile, strong bulldog, which happened by mixing English and American Bulldogs with a dash of Pittie for gameness-

"Purebred" isn't always best, at some point all breeds will have to outcross, or become extinct- such is life
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Old 07-13-2012, 09:31 AM
 
1,195 posts, read 2,514,752 times
Reputation: 789
Quote:
Originally Posted by snofarmer View Post
and you have no idea what recessive genes are or how they will manifest them selves.

Both Male (in your case the dad) & Female (in your case the daughter) could be perfectly healthy and with no health issues.

Bread then together and a recessive gene pops up , thus the "runt".

Breading for a particular trait is a little more compacted than you state
and there is no guarantee the trait will manifest it's self in the litter.
There are no guarantees, and this is what seperates the reposnible breeders from the non-responisble. I am willing to cull if I have to ensure the tight line breeding worked, if it doesnt work, then you may have to cull an entire litter ( I understand this rubs folks the wrong way, however it is a necesarry part of responsible breeding)

There is no guarantee that the mother will not squash her babies, there is no guarnatee that she won't bleed to death during delivery, there is no guarantee that her milk won't drop, there is no guarantee in anything involving bringing life into this world- So I maybe missing your point?
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Old 07-13-2012, 09:39 AM
 
Location: zone 5
7,330 posts, read 13,170,630 times
Reputation: 9611
Quote:
Originally Posted by cool rob View Post
There are no guarantees, and this is what seperates the reposnible breeders from the non-responisble. I am willing to cull if I have to ensure the tight line breeding worked, if it doesnt work, then you may have to cull an entire litter ( I understand this rubs folks the wrong way, however it is a necesarry part of responsible breeding)

There is no guarantee that the mother will not squash her babies, there is no guarnatee that she won't bleed to death during delivery, there is no guarantee that her milk won't drop, there is no guarantee in anything involving bringing life into this world- So I maybe missing your point?
I understand not wanting to pass on defective genes, but what is the point of destroying a dog when it could be fixed, sorry altered, and sold as a pet?? I can't read this any more. Do you even like dogs?
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Old 07-13-2012, 09:41 AM
 
Location: Northern MN
3,869 posts, read 13,047,045 times
Reputation: 3566
So I'm a "Elite Breeder"

Well I'm going to burst your bubble.

As we raise our dogs from a whelp, train and handle this dog all of it's life.
From cradle to grave.
We, as I stated, all of our dogs that are used for breeding are vet checked for genetic defects and health checked , OFA of both hips and elbows and DNA.
All are of sound temperament, how do we know? WE live with these dogs, we interact with them daily.

The Germans have a "bread warden".
His duties is to first approve the breading.
Next he sees that you are prepared, whelping box and supply's.
when the whelping is completed he will show up to see that they are healthy.
If any deformations or health issues are present he will cull them.
He will also cull any white or blue coated whelps.
If the b itch has 10 or more whelps he will find a b- itch who can feed them.

"His duties is to first approve the breading."
You would not have been permitted to bread your dad to the daughter and you would not get any papers.

I know the thought of culling will upset some folks but the Germans are fanatics and the bread comes first over our feelings.
IF it doesn't make the bread stronger it makes it weaker.

Your assumptions are huge.

Do you know what it takes for a dog to earn their schutzhund title .
All of mine are SchHIII titled.
I know you don't.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cool rob View Post
These statements are very general and they sterotype the BYB/Hobbyist as a puppy miller-


I can say the same things about "elite" breeders, and would it still be true?

Most "Elite Breeders" have no idea what their animal is capable of or it's limitations are, as this dog was more than likely picked based on pedigree alone, as well as championship titles.

Most "Elite Breeders" have no idea what they are doing and own dogs that should not be used for breeding, as many have serious health issues and should be culled @ birth, as they do not meet the minimum requirements for being a functional dog- Show me one "Elite" breeder of yorkies that has a dog that can chase down a rat and kill it, don't worry I will wait.

Most "Elite Breeders" are not healthy, functional dogs with a working desire to do what they have been originally bred to do- however they do have a nice looking pedigree, titles, show/conformation with hopefully a sound temperament, more so if they have not spent their entire life stuffed in a purse as a fashion accessory.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cool rob View Post
So I maybe missing your point?
You are because you are not a educated or ethical breeder

PS build a proper whelping box to lower the chances of the b -itch laying on any whelps.
A breeder would already have a whelping box
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Old 07-13-2012, 09:42 AM
 
1,195 posts, read 2,514,752 times
Reputation: 789
Quote:
Originally Posted by subject2change View Post
I understand not wanting to pass on defective genes, but what is the point of destroying a dog when it could be fixed, sorry altered, and sold as a pet?? I can't read this any more. Do you even like dogs?
Wouldn't that add to the overpopulation of dogs?
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Old 07-13-2012, 09:48 AM
 
1,195 posts, read 2,514,752 times
Reputation: 789
Quote:
Originally Posted by snofarmer View Post
So I'm a "Elite Breeder"

Well I'm going to burst your bubble.

As we raise our dogs from a whelp, train and handle this dog all of it's life.
From cradle to grave.
We, as I stated, all of our dogs that are used for breeding are vet checked for genetic defects and health checked , OFA of both hips and elbows and DNA.
All are of sound temperament, how do we know? WE live with these dogs, we interact with them daily.

The Germans have a "bread warden".
His duties is to first approve the breading.
Next he sees that you are prepared, whelping box and supply's.
when the whelping is completed he will show up to see that they are healthy.
If any deformations or health issues are present he will cull them.
He will also cull any white or blue coated whelps.
If the b itch has 10 or more whelps he will find a b- itch who can feed them.

"His duties is to first approve the breading."
You would not have been permitted to bread your dad to the daughter and you would not get any papers.

Your assumptions are huge.

Do you know what it takes for a dog to earn their schutzhund title .
All of mine are SchHIII titled.
I know you don't.
Sure I do- Tracking, Prtection and Obedience and I know it isnt easy, epsecially when your doing it right, so hats off to you- So I guess I should then welcome you to the BYB/Hobbyist club then?

If they practice that in Germany, for every GS breeding, then once again hats off to them for that practice-

However if you beleive they dog warden would not approve inbreeding when they saw fit, you are mistaken-
Check out this link:

Extent of Inbreeding in Purebred Pedigrees
Extent of inbreeding in pedigree dogs revealed in new study

Once agin this is what YOU do- that does not mean that every person you sell a dog too, will do the same- as well as every GS "elite breeder" will do the same, and the majority DO NOT train their dogs in working titles, only confirmation
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Old 07-13-2012, 10:05 AM
 
Location: Northern MN
3,869 posts, read 13,047,045 times
Reputation: 3566
Before they even get to that point they have to run/trot 12mi (the AD)and pass a temperament test/obedance.
There are a few other small tests they have to pass also.
Then after they earn a title they get there KkL rating "Koerklasse" , all of mine are KKL1a.
A registered German Shepherd dog that has a Schutzhund degree would have demonstrated sufficient ability as a working dog to qualify for breed evaluation. The breed evaluation is an in-depth examination of the dog's structure, temperament and pedigree, which requires both a certification of good hip joints and sufficient performance on an endurance test (the AD)
  • Dogs rated Koerklasse 1 (Kkl1) "recommended for breeding".
  • Dogs rated Koerklasse 2 (Kkl2) are "suitable for breeding.



No the breed warden does not allow " inbreeding when they saw fit"
he is bound by law.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cool rob View Post
Sure I do- Tracking, Prtection and Obedience and I know it isnt easy, epsecially when your doing it right, so hats off to you- So I guess I should then welcome you to the BYB/Hobbyist club then?

If they practice that in Germany, for every GS breeding, then once again hats off to them for that practice-

However if you beleive they dog warden would not approve inbreeding when they saw fit, you are mistaken-
Check out this link:

Extent of Inbreeding in Purebred Pedigrees
Extent of inbreeding in pedigree dogs revealed in new study
Your link is to a USA site. WE play by the German's rules.
try looking up the info from the homeland Germany.

We only register with the ACK because that is what Americans know.
the SV is much better at regulating the breed and a lot of other breeders could learn some excellent practices from them.
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Old 07-13-2012, 10:55 AM
 
24,843 posts, read 32,298,423 times
Reputation: 11452
[quote=cool rob;25150870]
Quote:
Originally Posted by no kudzu View Post
you'd be surprised how many purebred dogs end up in rescue or shelters. I have a purebred Bichon and a purebred Maltese both of whom were very expensive when first purchased and who ended up in rescue. Irresponsible pet owners trash expensive dogs all the time with no regard for the animals. Just like BYB raise puppies to sell.

and you have no business breeding dogs if you agree to let a female breed with her father. unreal.[/quote]

If you look @ your dogs pedigree, I will guarantee you that there are at least two to three father/daughter mother/son breedings that happened, trust that, and they were not accidental-
I looked at all five of my dog's pedigrees.

I saw nothing like that.

That is INBREEDING not line breeding.
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Old 07-13-2012, 12:30 PM
 
Location: The Great State of Arkansas
5,981 posts, read 16,284,441 times
Reputation: 7572
Quote:
Originally Posted by cool rob View Post
I am willing to cull if I have to ensure the tight line breeding worked, if it doesnt work, then you may have to cull an entire litter ( I understand this rubs folks the wrong way, however it is a necesarry part of responsible breeding)
I'm not even believing this. Again, recessive gene. Look it up.
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Old 07-13-2012, 01:00 PM
 
1,195 posts, read 2,514,752 times
Reputation: 789
[quote=Driller1;25153256]
Quote:
Originally Posted by cool rob View Post
I looked at all five of my dog's pedigrees.

I saw nothing like that.

That is INBREEDING not line breeding.
If you go back far enough in their generation, or start branching off in their pedigrees, you will find line breeding/ in breeding whatever you choose to call it- that is the only way to ensure their survival-

For example the Dogue De Bourdeux aka french Mastiff @ one point there were literally only around 100 or so in world-

Through selective in/line breeding, they have been able to get their numbers up without compromising their core standards- Not all were father to son, many were brother to sister or cousins, etc-

If you do the research, you will see it for yourself-
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