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Old 10-16-2007, 01:10 PM
 
Location: St. Augustine, Florida
1,932 posts, read 7,278,720 times
Reputation: 977
miu.. I have to say that it's pit bull, not pitbull and "pit bull" isn't a breed of dog. It's a term used to group three breeds, American Pit Bull Terriers (APBT), American Staffordshire Terriers (AmStaff) and Staffordshire Bull Terriers (Staffie).

Now, I know this really has nothing to do with anything, but I was just curios as to why you said this and what you meant by it.

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I have no pitbulls living in my neighborhood at present and most likely there won't ever be.
Why would you assume that no one in you're neighborhood would own a "pit bull"?

Okay, moving on.. lol!

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If you are a responsible pitbull owner, then hooray for you, but like a handgun, there is no need to promote the breed nor encourage more people to own one.
My husband and I are the proud owners of three wonderful American Pit Bull Terriers. We are responsible, respectful owners and our dogs have been properly trained and socialized. Our dogs are very friendly, loving dogs. Now, I'm not sure exactly who this post was to, but out of the people that have posted in this thread so far, myself, APBT_Samara and citybythebay are all responsible APBT owners. None of us would ever recommend this breed to just anyone. We are all very educated on the "pit bull" breeds and we know that they are not for everyone. Just like no dog breed is for everyone. None of us have or would "promote the breed nor encourage more people to own one", thanks for the laugh though! lol!

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Pitbulls should not be billed as some universally perfect breed to own.
Again, just like every other breed, the "pit bull" breeds are not for everyone, but they are most certainly not bad breeds. Anyone that will take the time to educate themselves on the breeds and will put in the time and effort it takes to be a good owner, can own a "pit bull". These aren't monster dogs or anything like that! lol! I'm 5' 3" and weigh about 105 pounds, I have absolutely no trouble at all controlling my three APBTs.

APBTs are one of the most stable, people-friendly breeds in existence! During the 20's, 40's, 50's and the 1st part of the 20th century the American Pit Bull Terrier was the number 1 family dog. In temperament testing the APBT tests higher than most popular family breeds such as Goldens and Beagles. For hundreds of years "pit bulls" have been bred to have a human friendly disposition and an overwhelming sense of need to please their owners. "Pit bulls" are currently used and suitable for all types of service work including drug detection, emergency rescue, service and therapy work, military service, and much more. The American Pit Bull Terrier is additionally one of the most intelligent and easy to train breed of dogs. The trainer of the show dog Lassie has even remarked on how the APBT is his choice of breed for training.

Check out what this website has to say about the APBTs temperament.. American Pit Bull Terrier - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Taken From Text:

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When treated well, APBTs typically have sunny personalities. They are very sweet, curious, intelligent, and clownish. They are noted for their outgoing, affectionate, eager-to-please disposition and their fondness for people. They adore attention, often relishing the company of humans and are notorious for their loyalty to their masters, even giving their lives for them.... Despite the stereotype, the average, sound-minded APBT is not a threat where children are concerned.... APBTs were never bred for human aggression or guarding behavior; generally they only will attack if they perceive an immediate threat to their masters or families rather than seeing every person as an intruder upon their territory. They were originally bred against human aggression because in the pit fighting days the handlers had to be able to handle their dogs as well as treat their wounds, and if necessary, quickly pull the dog out of a fight for various reasons. Any dog that did show the slightest sign of human aggression in that day was 'culled', and therefore, not allowed to carry on its bloodline. For that reason stable examples of the breed are generally not suitable as guard dogs. It is important that APBTs who display any sign of human aggression are not bred, in order to preserve the stable and friendly nature of the breed, and equally important that man aggressive dogs are never kept.
And check out what this website has to say about the APBTs temperament.. American Pit Bull Terrier, Pit Bulls, Pitbulls

Taken From Text:

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By no means are these dogs people-haters or people-eaters. Their natural aggressive tendencies are towards other dogs and animals, not people. However if they are properly socialized they will not even be aggressive with them.... The American Pit Bull Terrier is a good-natured, amusing, extremely loyal and devoted family pet, which is good with children and adults.
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One of my boyfriend's friends has told me about a pitbull that is kept chained in someone's basement. It is mean and growls at everyone. His owner loves owning such an angry fighting machine. If I knew where this guy lived, I would report him to the authorities. But I don't.
That is horrible! People like that make me sick! No dog should ever be chained up, especially not in a basement! I don't think any dog could live like that and be a nice dog! That is wrong in so many different ways and he needs to be reported! It's sad that people can even be like that!

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I had to wrap the leash several times around my wrist and watch out for small dogs during our walks. If I saw a small dog in the distance, I would cross the street and be ready to brace myself in case the dog tried to lunge towards it. We had some close calls. The problem was that years earlier, some little dog attacked the AmStaff and bite her lip. Ever since, she has hated small dogs
.

There is no excuse for that. My male APBT was attacked by a Lab/ Shepherd mix and he's not dog aggressive at all! A good owner wouldn't allow their dog to pull on a leash like that or be that aggressive! That is dangerous and very irresponsible! I mean, good lord! You really don't even have to take the time to train your dog to walk on a leash these days! There are so many things out there to help a dog walk on a leash! Prong collars and gentle leaders, just to name a couple.

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I worked a dog rescue and one woman with several labs lived next door to a family with pitbulls. They were very friendly dogs and they often played together. What this woman noticed was that when the dogs occasionally got agitated and heated, the pits took it to the angry level a lot faster than her labs. And once the pits got mad, it took more to get them to let go of that angry attitude and calm down. Whereas her labs were much quicker to distract and get happy again.
I have owned a Chocolate Lab and a Black Lab (as well as several other different breeds) and like I already said, now we own three APBTs. Our APBTs are just a friendly, if not more friendly than my Labs ever were. Many of our close friends and family own "pit bulls" and not one is aggressive or mean. Not one has ever attacked someone or something and they all live in homes with other pets and/ or children. As for Labs though, I was attacked by a Lab, my younger brother has been attacked by a Lab, my neighbors (when I was younger) had a Lab that attacked 5 people before it was put to sleep and our neighbors that live across the street from us own a Lab/ Shepherd mix that ran into our yard and attacked our male APBT! Actually, the neighbors that live across the street from us own two Lab/ Shepherd mixes and an APBT, guess which dog is the nice one?! Both of the Lab/ Shepherd mixes are so aggressive that they have to be kept away from all animals and all people except for their owners. The APBT is their 11 year old daughters dog and the APBT is the sweetest thing!.. Now, I'm not saying Labs are bad dogs, I love all dogs, but those are just my experiences. Oh, and not that it makes a difference or really even matters, but all of the aggressive Labs I have ever met were yellow labs. I was also bit by a Chow when I was younger.

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There was a weird newstory local to me. It was in the suburbs too. Guy took his pitbull to a friends house. The dog didn't like the ~12 year old girl living there, bit her arm and wouldn't let go of it. The police came and pepper sprayed the dog. Then shot it in the rump, then finally had to kill the dog. I think that this was in Hudson, MA last spring. I don't save these stories.
I wouldn't believe the media! lol! There are a few things that contribute to the negative stories on the news. As often the case, negative stories always seem to get National coverage, where the positive stories only make the local news. The Media is not always very responsible with their stories! I have seen news reports of a dog attack by another breed and, yet the media had a picture of a "pit bull" on the TV while reporting this story. Iíve read many stories where the reporter obviously hadnít done any research, when I asked about their statistics they choose not to reply. Plus, the statistical data on dog bites and attacks are inaccurate. Many dog bites are never reported. There is nothing in place to track dog bites in the US accurately. There are 25+ breeds that are commonly wrongly identified as "pit bulls". Those of us who have been involved with the breed for years have trouble identifying them 100% of the time, so, we certainly canít expect inexperienced people to be able to properly ID a dog. That said, it leads us to believe that many of the bites that claim to be from "pit bulls" are in fact, inflicted by other breeds.

Like any breed of dog, a healthy "pit bull" that is properly raised will remain loving and friendly. In the past 20 years, we have seen some sad examples of poorly bred and badly treated dogs that are by products of irresponsible "backyard breeders" and cruel and abusive homes. These improperly raised, unsocialized creatures can show temperaments far removed from the traditional authentic "pit bulls." Do not confuse these unfortunate misbreds with the HUGE majority of well-loved "pit bulls" in this country that remain solid in temperament, affectionate, trustworthy and friendly to their dying day.

 
Old 10-16-2007, 01:15 PM
 
Location: St. Augustine, Florida
1,932 posts, read 7,278,720 times
Reputation: 977
Quote:
Originally Posted by miu View Post
BTW you shouldn't be mad at non-pitbull owners that are wary of pitbulls, instead you should be mad at the irresponsible pitbull owners giving the breed such a bad reputation. Trying to persuade us non-pitbull owners that they aren't all bad is a big waste of time imo. Just get your fellow pit owners to do the right thing and be good dog owners. The problem is that it's not just a few bad apples, but more a decent percentage of pitbull owners that don't know how to handle the breed properly.

Maybe in addition to registering them with the animal control departments, they should also be required to be trained with an good dog obedience school and a copy of that certificate be kept on file.
I have to say, I agree with this post, for the most part. None of us are mad at the non-"pit bull" owners. We realize that it's irresponsible owners and breeders that are the root of the problem and that's what we tell people! There is absolutely no reason for someone to hate all of the "pit bulls" just because some of them end up in the wrong hands. I'm sure if they had a choice they would not choose to live with an irresponsible owner! Not only am I a "pit bull" owner, I'm an animals lover and trust me, if there was any way at all that I could "Just get my fellow pit owners to do the right thing and be good dog owners" I would! What good dog owner wouldn't?! Those people don't even listen to laws, why in the world would they listen to me?! And I'm not "Trying to persuade us non-pitbull owners that they aren't all bad", I'm trying to educate people on the breeds.
 
Old 10-16-2007, 01:26 PM
 
768 posts, read 1,414,215 times
Reputation: 410
Quote:
Originally Posted by miu View Post
BTW you shouldn't be mad at non-pitbull owners that are wary of pitbulls, instead you should be mad at the irresponsible pitbull owners giving the breed such a bad reputation. Trying to persuade us non-pitbull owners that they aren't all bad is a big waste of time imo. Just get your fellow pit owners to do the right thing and be good dog owners. The problem is that it's not just a few bad apples, but more a decent percentage of pitbull owners that don't know how to handle the breed properly.

Maybe in addition to registering them with the animal control departments, they should also be required to be trained with an good dog obedience school and a copy of that certificate be kept on file.

Miu, I'm not mad at you. My intention was to encourage you to stop repeating what you have heard and to actually get personal experience, think and evaluate something before simply repeating what you have heard. Have you ever considered that what you have heard may not be accurate, or may not be reflective of the whole picture? Have all of the facts in front of you before rushing to judgment.

Yes, I do dislike irresponsible dog owners. If I could, I would change all of them. However, an owner's lack of responsibility is not the dog's fault. It *is* however, the person's fault, and I believe the person should be held responsible--not the dog breed.

My intention wasn't to convince you that pitbulls are not bad. What I was trying to do was convince you to open your mind and find out for yourself.

Honestly, to switch from talking about pitties to an AmStaff to try to make a point about a pittie is irrelevant. It's not the same breed and doesn't belong in the same conversation. However, the AmStaff should have been walked on a harness if it pulls that much and the owner can't get it under control. The fact that your friend 1) didn't train the dog to walk property and 2) didn't know that she needed to use a harness indicates to me that she is not a responsible pet owner. I won't address the fact that you allowed yourself to be a part of such a potentially dangerous situation for a month. You could have been hurt just by not having control over the dog and being yanked, and you are obviously well aware of the danger that you think you would have been putting others at risk of.

I don't believe I should have to register my dog with anyone. The day someone is required to register their peekapoo, lab, or whatever breed the popular media deems 'harmless' that day is the day I'll not have a problem with it. The criminal system in this country says that everyone is "innocent until proven guilty." Having to register a dog just because of its breed is saying it's guilty until proven innocent.
 
Old 10-16-2007, 01:31 PM
miu
 
Location: MA/NH
12,955 posts, read 21,492,877 times
Reputation: 10082
I'll have to put in a call with my city's animal control department to ask them if they have any numbers about pitbulls in my area. I believe that home owners insurance has issues with certain breeds living on the property. But all the dogs in my area are small to medium sized furballs of love. There is no need for guard dogs here. Our city is one of the safest in the nation.

And pitbulls may have sunny dispositions if raised and treated right, but the shelters in places like Hartford, CT get in pitbulls all the time and most are unclaimed and get put to sleep. Fostering a pitbull of unknown history is a gamble that most people don't want to take, especially if they have young kids around. And I would never want to argue with a mad pitbull either. Too much muscles and teeth to deal with, and the potential for lots of damage. However, I am not afraid to handle my lab.

Anyway, as I've said before, as long as you are a good responsible dog owner, I don't care what kind of dog you own. Unfortunately, a lot of dog owners aren't very good at training their dogs. And I like to be easily stronger than my pets, not the other way around.
 
Old 10-16-2007, 02:03 PM
 
768 posts, read 1,414,215 times
Reputation: 410
Quote:
Originally Posted by miu View Post

If you knew several people or families that were looking to get a dog, would you across the board only recommend a pitbull to them? I would hope not. ...

Some dog breeds are more forgiving in terms of if they are not trained properly, they still can be a passably good companion. However a pitbull is not one of them. Can you disagree with that?

Please stop going on preconceived ideas. Why are you still trying to make such broad statements and force a single breed to fit into it??

No one is trying to force you to believe that you need a pittie. I don't understand why you are still looking to others (who you know probably have and love at least one dog who is a pittie, BTW) to agree with you about a false stereotype contrived by an ignorant media merely looking for airtime or page space (and we all know that the sensational "story" gets it, facts be da**ed) about a breed that we know firsthand and love. I never expected you would be convinced about the breed but I had honestly hoped that you could have the capacity to consider another point of view and put thought into what you are typing.

Stereotypes are just that, and not every dog fits its breed's stereotype, just as people don't fit stereotypes. A good friend of mine has a bassett hound. By stereotype, bassett hounds are supposed to be low-energy, lazy dogs. Not this dog! She's a high-energy, high-maintenance dog, there is nothing low-key about her. She's a great dog and I love her dearly, but she doesn't fit the stereotype--just as many other dogs don't.

Would I recommend a pittie to anyone right off the bat? No, I wouldn't recommend a breed as a whole right off the bat to anyone--period. I know enough about dogs to know that you can't generalize like that. I would have to see the dog and work with it and know the people involved. I would have to know what kind of time and money the people are willing to invest in the animal. Not many people have the time or interest in making an animal a well-behaved member of the family, as opposed to a yard ornament. (In fact, some people have yet to make their human children well-behaved members, either!) If someone wants a pet they only have to deal with once every few weeks at the most, they can volunteer at a shelter and get their fill of animals while learning about the cruel reality of many animals' lives.

There is no such thing as an entire breed that is "good" whether they are trained or not. Obnoxious, out-of-control dogs are just like obnoxious, out-of -control children; it is the fault of the person supposed to be teaching them. As much as you obviously want a hard and fast rule, there honestly isn't one. Each dog is different, just as each person is different.





Warning: The thoughts you have read are those of this poster. No one else may share these views. That is okay.

Last edited by AnyDayNow; 10-16-2007 at 02:14 PM..
 
Old 10-16-2007, 06:09 PM
 
829 posts, read 6,560,960 times
Reputation: 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by miu View Post
But the other issue with pitbulls is their stubbornness and unwillingness to let go once they have a grip on the victim's limb. Even pepper spray won't get them to release their bite if they don't want to. It's their temperament that is also a problem with those dogs.
What is your point? This was addressing one myth. What you are saying applies to attacking dogs and not APBT. Many dogs are unwilling to release their bite in an attack. Most dogs again pepper spray is not a deterrent. It will depend on the dog, not the breed. What you are saying applies to an attacking dog of any breed. Did you not see the Rottweiler pulling his arm further and further down. He didnít want to let go.

The issue isnít temperament of the breed. They have one of the best temperaments that can be found in any breed. Due to culling out human aggressive dogs and breeding for a trustworthy and stable temperament. If you want to start making general statementsÖmost other breeds will lash out and bite when they are injured, most other breeds will bite/attack out of fear when scared or hurt. So their temperament is not a problem. Seems like I shouldnít be trusting other breeds.

The Pom here who was protecting his owners car didnít let go of the guys hands. He still had his hands stuck in the window when the police arrived to the Wal Mart parking lot. They opened the door, the dog up in the air shaking and attached. They tried to spank him and get him to let go but he only did so when he wanted to. They didnít want to pry his mouth open because he was so small that they thought they would hurt him and they didnít want to yank him off because the tiny teeth were imbedded pretty deep and would rip flesh away.

Most dogs of any breed wonít out unless they know the command or have been raised to have respect and obedience to the owner. Not just the APBT. Any unstable dog of any breed that goes into a kill attacks isnít going to let go. What it takes to make them let go depends on that individual dog. You can beat them, pepper spray them, ect and they wonít let go. Otherwise the girl a friends dog attacked wouldnít need re-constructive surgery and a metal plate in her face. The dog was fine with her kids but this was a girl she was baby sitting that had food and the dog looked at the girl as below him obviously. A golden/lab mix. How crazy a perfect family breed that attacks. She tried to beat and pull the dog off. The owner was in shock and I can only imagine the horror and helplessness she felt as this dog ripped away the girls flesh. Its clear the dog had a dominance issue in the first place, I wonder how long it was subtly allowed to go on? This could have been prevented had the dogs issues been corrected.

My female can go on the springpole or play tug with me. When I tell her to let go, she lets go. I tell her wait and tease her with the toy, throw the toy, ect she will wait until I tell her its ok. If she wants the spring pole and I tell her to WAIT she will sit there no matter how long it takes.



When she was playing with out late female they were had a tug toy rope. She accidental grabbed the other females lip. She continued to shake and pull. I finally realized she was attached to the other females face. So I called my husband for assistance. Our late female was just sitting there, yet its said they are ďeasily angeredĒ a dog has teeth sunk in face/lip and is being jerked around and isnít the least bit angry. She is just looking to my husband for help. He tells her No, wait, if he had said ok get her then she would have defended herself. I go to my female and grab her collar and tell her to let go solves the problem. Both want to continue playing like NOTHING happened, including the female on the receiving end.


If Pit Bulls had less of a tendency to out then they sure wouldnít be using them as Police K9s. They must always be controlled and must out when told to. Dog must stop anytime told. Funny you mention Belgians because I have heard that the main reason some are flunking is due to not wanting to out.

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Originally Posted by miu View Post
I am not anti pitbull, but many people should not be allowed to own them. The same goes for several other breeds. Pitbulls are fine dogs if trained properly, but most dog owners are passive about their dog ownership or they own them for the wrong reasons. I have no pitbulls living in my neighborhood at present and most likely there won't ever be. If you are a responsible pitbull owner, then hooray for you, but like a handgun, there is no need to promote the breed nor encourage more people to own one. Pitbulls should not be billed as some universally perfect breed to own. They should be treated like a Belgian Malinous, where it is a working breed, they needs to be socialized properly when young, trained properly and exercised regularly. Some of us want a more friendly and relaxed dog like a lab or a small loving dog like a pug. There are so many different breeds of dogs, all with different temperament. As long as you have your pitbulls trained and well socialized, then enjoy their company in peace.
Yes the problem is DOG OWNERS, they are passive just like you said. They let their dogs do whatever and treat them like kings. That is where there are problems with all dogs and not just Pit Bulls.

Like a handgun..lol There is nothing wrong with people owning them. I donít promote them for everyone but the same is true of any breed. Any breed is only for certain types of owners, as the breed has to fit with your lifestyle, personality and training ability. Getting the right dog would be less dog bites, estructive dogs and ogs in shelters. How is the Belgian Malinois (by the way its ois not ous) treated? I have owned one so Iím really interested in seeing how you think they should be treated? They are a working breed for sure and is the APBT. All dogs need to be socialized/properly trained from a young age to prevent behavioral problems. Not just Mals, Pits or working breeds. This is the major problem with dogs. The dog just does whatever it wants around the house, poos wherever, barks at guest, tries to bite them if they sit too close to their master, eat food from the table, tear up whatever they want. Then there is no outside stimulation, walks, playing, if they are outside its alone in a backyard by themselves. Of course exercised is needed to the degree the breed and individual dogs needs. This applies to any breed of dog.

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One of my boyfriend's friends has told me about a pitbull that is kept chained in someone's basement. It is mean and growls at everyone. His owner loves owning such an angry fighting machine. If I knew where this guy lived, I would report him to the authorities. But I don't.
Youíre boyfriends doesnít know where this guy lives to report him? Why do you think it has this issue, not because of its breed, because it probably has poor breeding and no socialization. I knew a Pit Bull that was kept in a basement room like 24/7. She wasnít mean and didnít growl at everyone. She was cautious and scared, she would cower down as she walked and always had her tail tucked. How a dog behaves depends on that individual dogs personality and the breeding behind it. Iím not one to compare human/animal but maybe this will help you. You could put 3 different people in the same hardship and each will probably take it different depending on their personality. Psychology tells us that certain things happening cause X but still give variables for individual personality and coping skills, so you can have different outcomes for different people.

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I worked a dog rescue and one woman with several labs lived next door to a family with pitbulls. They were very friendly dogs and they often played together. What this woman noticed was that when the dogs occasionally got agitated and heated, the pits took it to the angry level a lot faster than her labs. And once the pits got mad, it took more to get them to let go of that angry attitude and calm down. Whereas her labs were much quicker to distract and get happy again.
Its all depends on the breeding and personality of the dogs. It is typical for the APBT to be dominant with other dogs, so we can expect that. Labs are more lax and do better with other dogs. No one is arguing this? The solution if you have an APBT you let play with other dogs supervise them and learn their body signals. You must take into account how that dog is bred and raised. Also this is a known fact, no one has disputed that certain breeds of dogs donít do as well with other dogs.

People think if they get a Lab it will be the perfect family pet. That causes problems. No training, socialization, rules, exercise. So the dog nips their kids, digs up the backyard, digs, rips up carpet, jumps on people. All common reasons why Labs are often dumped off at shelters, they are not a perfect breed and neither is any other.

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Originally Posted by miu View Post
And how can you ignore their dangerous potential in the wrong hands? They are popular dogs for entering into dog fights for a good reason.
No ones ignoring the fact. All dogs are dangerous in the wrong hands. Larger or stronger breeds are going to likely be able to do more damage quicker then a smaller breed. That doesnít mean the others are not potential dangerous. I will tell you about a 12yr old girl (who ironically her father and grandma both own APBTs she has been raised with) went to her friends house. Her friend has a small white mixed breed, like a Westie mix. She walks in her friends yard the dog bites her leg. The bite is to the bone and takes a chunk out. She has to go to emergency where they fix it up. They jacked it up and its not healing and getting infected so she has to go back and have it reopened, cleaned, treated and fixed back up. She spends the whole summer in pain, on crutches, with stitches, bandages and doesnít get to do anything fun-ride bike, swim because this little dog bites her.

It's not right to let small dogs be vicious All dogs owners be held to the same standard. It would be the best benefit of the dog, owner and others if they were properly raised no matter the size. I had a Yorkie try to attack me in the vets office. The old man couldnít even control his small dog. He was sitting in a chair by the door as I was leaving and it growled, jumped off his lap and ran out after me (all in seconds of course) and he yelled at it and scrambled to get it but missed and it grabbed onto my jeans. Growling and shaking. I lifted my leg up and it just kept hanging on with its attack. Finally he could get it off. Obviously I was uninjured so I guess that makes it ok? Not IMO, that is unacceptable for any dog no matter the size, he didnít even apologize.

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And I already said that the dog is being mistreated, but it's the breed characteristics of having high muscle mass that caused this jerk to want a pitbull, and not a golden retriever chained in his basement. Actually, the lab I own was badly abused and he doesn't growl at anybody, instead he just wants to hide from the world.
Weird because I know dogs of many breeds that have been abused and neglected. Maybe this individual jerk wanted an APBT because of muscle but that doesnít stop the St Bernard owner who kept his dog locked in a shed for getting that dog for whatever reason or the greyhound owner who had her 2 locked in crates in the basement almost 24/7 and the cocker spaniels I read about who were kept in a room by an old lady and they peed/poo in there all the time. The dogs were rescued but crate training was near impossible because they always went on themselves and as I remember some were put down due to BAD TEMPERAMENT and others came out ok, just had so much to do in the training, confidence area a lot of work. This just shows what happens when you neglect animals.

Your point about the Lab again is what? As said before how a dog acts depends on that individual dog and not breed. NONE of my APBTs growl at anyone including the 3 from bad situations. So the point you are trying to make isnít a factual one. One female who is 5yrs old was beaten (hit with objects, kicked, ect), starved, fought, full of coccidia and whip worm. She has never growled at anyone. She just doesnít trust anyone but us and would hide from guest. Now after some years she is feeling comfortable with some people (one of our friends kneeled down and she came up to him and let him pet her, heís a dog lover though so maybe she could sense that). The other female didnít have it nearly so tough, she was kept out in the middle of nowhere on a super thick log chain that was only about 4ft long. She also had hook and whip worms. She is one of the friendliest dogs you could meet, she loves everyone, will gladly give you a hug and enjoys relaxing with her family. The other one is a male, he was neglected (no socialization or training), fought quite a few times, had a terrible worm infestation when I got him, so bad it could have been a lethal case yet he only wants to be loved and give love. He is one of the most gentle and tolerant I have seen with puppies, wiggles his whole body when he sees a person and likes to rub all over you and lay on your lap.

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If you knew several people or families that were looking to get a dog, would you across the board only recommend a pitbull to them? I would hope not. Just like the other thread asking about if a beagle would make a good apartment dog, the answer was no, not to get a beagle because like to run around and bark. Or every time there has been a Disney Dalmatian movie, the parents run out to buy a dalmatian to keep their kids happy. Again problems as those dogs are high energy and not good around kids. Every dog breed is specialized and too many people pick a dog for their looks, less for what they were bred to do.
This is where we agree. Like I said, different breeds for different people. We saw what happened with the Dal popularity, publicized attacks by Dalmatians. Anytime a breed becomes popular its bad news. More irresponsible idiots own them and more breeders who breed unstable dogs.

Quote:
Some dog breeds are more forgiving in terms of if they are not trained properly, they still can be a passably good companion. However a pitbull is not one of them. Can you disagree with that?
Since itís a lie yes I can disagree with it. The dogs I got were abused, neglected, not trained and not socialized yet they prove to be great companions, all except one who is scared however she isnít a danger to anyone. Just not a dog who will greet guest or enjoy a walk. They are all APBTs. You need to get some knowledge before making such statements. Most people who have worked in rescue, whether thatís in APBT rescue or shelter/rescue involving many breeds will attest to the fact that APBT seem to be a very forgiving breed. When a human can fight, beat, starve and light an APBT on fire and that dog is rescued and becomes a therapy dog I think they are being more then forgiving. They never held it against humans in the first place. When a bait dog that was also mistreated in other ways find a new home and is loving to the people and dogs they meet they held nothing against the people who abused them or the animals who attacked them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by miu View Post
But all the dogs in my area are small to medium sized furballs of love. There is no need for guard dogs here. Our city is one of the safest in the nation.
What is your point about guard dogs? No one mentioned guard dogs anywhere. The clip did feature Rottweilers know to excel in guard work and GSD one that is great in personal protection/home security. But we were discussing APBTs I thought?? Which make horrible guard dogs and are often stolen due to wanting to go with anyone people friendly nature. They are usually filled with over joyous love and enthusiast. I think to even believe a GSD or Rott isnít loving would be silly. Not everyone owns a Rott just for a guard dog.
 
Old 10-16-2007, 08:41 PM
 
Location: Tejas
6,884 posts, read 10,392,239 times
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Miu, ANY dog is a danger in the wrong hands. And I mean any. I own a Staff which is gentle baby and only in December I had to put down a Lab / Golden Retriever mix because it tried to eat children, literally. Snapped at every child around. Any breed can be dangerous.

Pitbulls are some of the easiest trained dogs I have worked it. And I am going with the gerneal 'type' breed you are referring to. To me, the two Staffs that I have owned are gentle, and I have worked with one that had little to no training at 2 years old. Took a week to get him close to where he should be.

I see you are trying to non bias but you are not coming off that way. If you look at kennel club websites you will find that Staffs are some of the easiest dogs to train and they are one of the few that are reccomended for children. The media dosent send out that message which is a shame.

Quote:
Some dog breeds are more forgiving in terms of if they are not trained properly, they still can be a passably good companion. However a pitbull is not one of them. Can you disagree with that?
Can I disagree, yes. Read above
 
Old 10-17-2007, 02:16 AM
 
Location: On a back country trail just toodling along...
38 posts, read 2,079 times
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I am a APBT owner, and I'd like to point out that the APBT in that YouTube video was a bit on the small side. My female APBT for instance is 90 lbs, and I can guarantee her bite is MUCH stronger than the one in that video. She has broken cow femur bones in one bite. Once I was playing with her and she started clamping down too tight on my arm, and I started to hear 'cracking' sounds. I told her to stop, and she released immediately.
 
Old 10-17-2007, 03:04 AM
 
829 posts, read 6,560,960 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Man View Post
I am a APBT owner, and I'd like to point out that the APBT in that YouTube video was a bit on the small side. My female APBT for instance is 90 lbs, and I can guarantee her bite is MUCH stronger than the one in that video. She has broken cow femur bones in one bite. Once I was playing with her and she started clamping down too tight on my arm, and I started to hear 'cracking' sounds. I told her to stop, and she released immediately.
So are you actually an APBT owner or are you really an American Bully or Bandog owner? Sorry but it should be pointed out that your female is rather large for the breed. They are to be a medium sized breed. The APBT in the youtube video wasn't on the small side at all for the breed, maybe compared to the size a Rottweiler is supposed to be. My males are not over 60lbs and the standard calls for females 30-50 and males 35-60. My dogs average 35-55lbs. Your female is larger then a standard male. Balance is the most important thing however it'd be pretty rare to see a balanced 90lbs dog. I have been showing APBT for many years now and I'm tired of all the crappy azz bybs breeding giant monster APBT for color, size and $$. Ruining the breed, adding structure problems, ect. Do you even know your dogs bloodlines? There are many "Pit Bulls" which are actually bandogs with hung papers as dishonest breeders bred in Presa, American Bulldog, Cane Corso, Bullmastiff for size.

Please don't talk about something if you don't know about it. We don't need anymore misconceptions spread around. People believe a large bull type breed must be a Pit Bull thanks to these idiot bybs with their giant "Pit Bulls". Same reason people told my friend "that is a pretty pit bull" about her Cane Corso and why the guy at a dog show thought my other friend had a awesome pit bull when he was actually a Boerboel.

PSI (bite strength) isn't always determined by size. Smaller dogs can have a harder bite then larger dogs. I had a 45lbs female with a soft bite "couldn't bust a grape type" and a 30lbs female with a wicked hard bite. So the PSI must be different. My FIL's male is under 50lbs (I'm pretty sure) and he as well shatters bone. His sire and dam both had strong bites. The larger dog they had didn't have this same capability. I think this test should be done with more then 1 individual of each breed. Size can play a part but won't always be your determining factor. Some bloodlines are know for having a stronger bite then others and they are not larger dogs.

People who don't know their own breed slay me. I'm on another forum where someone recently got a female Bullmastiff from a reputable show breeder. The breeder told them the dog would be around 100lbs and the mom was like 105lbs I think. "Someone else piped in good luck with keeping her that small." -They had a female Bullmastiff that was 150lbs.- Obviously they had a dog bred away from the standard from a byb biggger is better fad and just showed their uneducation on the breed. Male Bullmastiffs should max at 130lbs so their female like yours was larger then a male. Males 110-130 and female 100-120. You have your dog, take care of your dog, love your dog. But don't tote around your out of standard probably byb dog as what an APBT is supposed to be as its not a good representation of the breed. That seems rather silly. I had a way out of standard Boxer and I never chimed in put down a well conformed Boxer or typy Boxer because it was different then mine. Mine was the one that wasn't right.
 
Old 10-17-2007, 03:06 PM
 
Location: St. Augustine, Florida
1,932 posts, read 7,278,720 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miu View Post
I'll have to put in a call with my city's animal control department to ask them if they have any numbers about pitbulls in my area. I believe that home owners insurance has issues with certain breeds living on the property. But all the dogs in my area are small to medium sized furballs of love. There is no need for guard dogs here. Our city is one of the safest in the nation.

And pitbulls may have sunny dispositions if raised and treated right, but the shelters in places like Hartford, CT get in pitbulls all the time and most are unclaimed and get put to sleep. Fostering a pitbull of unknown history is a gamble that most people don't want to take, especially if they have young kids around. And I would never want to argue with a mad pitbull either. Too much muscles and teeth to deal with, and the potential for lots of damage. However, I am not afraid to handle my lab.

Anyway, as I've said before, as long as you are a good responsible dog owner, I don't care what kind of dog you own. Unfortunately, a lot of dog owners aren't very good at training their dogs. And I like to be easily stronger than my pets, not the other way around.
You said that all the dogs in your area are small-medium? Well, "pit bulls" are small-medium breeds. Our male APBT comes up to my knees and I'm only 5' 3", and he weighs 48 pounds. Our two female APBTs are slightly shorter than our male and they weigh 38 and 42 pounds. We have no need for guard dogs in our neighborhood either, that's one of the reasons we don't own guard dogs. We own a breed that was bred specifically to be human friendly. We own a breed that doesn't make good guard dogs because of their love of humans. We own one off the most stable, human-friendly breeds in existence. Our dogs have let a complete stranger walk into our home when we weren't there and all they did was lick him! Of course it was someone that we knew that had permission to get something out of our home, but our dogs had never seen him before and we were not home at the time.

A lot of the "pit bulls" that end up in shelters are put down for one of three main reasons. 1- A lot of people wouldn't even think about adopting a "pit bull" because they are brain washed by all of the twisted media hype and unbelievable myths. Because they don't get adopted, they get put down, whether they are good dogs or not. 2- The shelter is in a city or county where certain breeds are illegal, if that shelter can't find another shelter or rescue group that has room for the dog and is willing to take it within a certain amount of time, normally a few days, the dog has to be put down. And 3- The dog was used as a fighting dog, so it's too dog aggressive to safely be placed in a home. A lot of people think that fighting dogs are put down because they are horribly aggressive, and that is true to a point, but they are normally not human aggressive at all. Fighting dogs were bred, raised and trained to want to kill other dogs. They are also bred, raised and trained to be human friendly. The dogs have to be handled before, during and after the fights, the owners have to stand in the pit with the dogs as they are fighting and there are people crowded around watching the fight. These days though, the people that fight dogs don't breed responsibly, so even though the "pit bull" breeds are supposed to be human friendly breeds, you really never know with some of these fighting dogs. It's not that these are bad dogs, they are some of the absolute best breeds out there, people make these dogs mean.

Fostering any dog of any breed with an unknown back ground is a gamble. There are many breeds that are larger than the "pit bull" breeds, there are many breeds that can do just as much if not more damage as the "pit bull" breeds and most breeds were not bred specifically to be human friendly like the "pit bull" breeds have been. Oh, and I would never want to argue with any dog, no matter what breed it is. No matter what breed the dog is it's still a dog and dogs are animals, all dogs have teeth, all dogs can bite, all dogs can attack, all dogs can cause serious harm and all dogs can kill, there for, all dogs are a potential threat.

As far as you not being afraid to handle your Lab, I would hope you wouldn't be! lol! My husband and I are not afraid to handle our APBTs, just like I was never afraid to handle my Chocolate Lab, my Cocker Spaniel, my Fox Hound, my Black Lab, my Rhodesian Ridgeback/ Rottweiler mix or my 2 Mini Schnauzers. I haven't been afraid to handle any of my dogs, no one should be afraid to handle their own dog. I am however somewhat afraid to handle dogs that I don't know, no matter what breed they are. With my dogs I know how they are, I raised them and trained them. With other dogs you really never know. I would be just as afraid to handle a Lab that I didn't know as I would be to handle an APBT, an AmStaff or a Staffie that I didn't know. Actually, I would probably be more scared of a Lab! Most of the dogs that I know are "pit bulls" and not one of them has ever been mean, but almost every aggressive dog I have ever met has been a Lab or a Lab mix.

Speaking of aggressive Labs and Lab mixes, I was watching the dog whisperer today and one of the dogs that he went to help was a Lab/ Beagle mix. This dog was so aggressive! It had bitten children and other dogs and every time it saw an adult, a child or another dog it went crazy! Another Lab that I saw on the show killed one of it's owners pet chickens. All of the "pit bulls" that have been on the show (the shows I have seen) were either hyper and didn't want to listen or they were dog aggressive, but nothing like these Labs were. In fact, Cesar's pack is mostly all "pit bulls" and "pit bull" mixes and they are some of the most well behaved, friendly dogs I have ever seen in my life! lol! It's not the dogs or the breeds that are bad, it's the owners.
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