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Old 10-18-2007, 11:21 AM
 
Location: McKinleyville, California
6,413 posts, read 9,112,178 times
Reputation: 4225

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My Chelsea shakes like a leaf during the whole bath, she does not like the hair dryer so I hand towel her and she loves, she stops shaking as soon as she is out of the bath. She is much the same at the groomers, except that she does not struggle with them as she does with me.

I think it is cruel and unusual punishment to take a guard dog into a situation where it has to be on duty or needs a shock collar to make it obey, when all it wants to do is do its job. All of my dogs have always been trained by me to obey on verbal or hand signals, but never would I have a need for a shock collar or even a choke collar. A dog that stays amped up is likely to snap under extreme pressure and a work place where the owners attention may wander away to actually do work, may allow the dog to act on their own volition. That could make for a dangerous situation if some one should infringe upon your workspace / territory.

 
Old 10-18-2007, 12:01 PM
 
830 posts, read 864,192 times
Reputation: 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDragonslayer View Post
My Chelsea shakes like a leaf during the whole bath, she does not like the hair dryer so I hand towel her and she loves, she stops shaking as soon as she is out of the bath. She is much the same at the groomers, except that she does not struggle with them as she does with me.

I think it is cruel and unusual punishment to take a guard dog into a situation where it has to be on duty or needs a shock collar to make it obey, when all it wants to do is do its job. All of my dogs have always been trained by me to obey on verbal or hand signals, but never would I have a need for a shock collar or even a choke collar. A dog that stays amped up is likely to snap under extreme pressure and a work place where the owners attention may wander away to actually do work, may allow the dog to act on their own volition. That could make for a dangerous situation if some one should infringe upon your workspace / territory.
To DogPaw, I have had dogs for 50 years and this is the FIRST bad grooming experience so I want to make sure you realize that I am not and would not attack groomers in general. I would caution people of the few (like anything else) bad apples.

To Chick, I like to tell you about one of my clients. He keeps at his business a very large scary boxer or some type of intimidating breed. He would be kicked off his homeowner policy if he continued to keep the dog at his home. Here is what happened:

When the dog was young (not a pup but a young dog) he got held up on an invisible fence. My client's wife couldn't stand to see the dog in pain so she grabbed him to pull him off the invisible fence. Because she did this, the dog after that always associated the pain with the wife who had red hair (luckily that was the first wife and marriage didn't last long .. not trying to be mean here) but worse then that, everytime the dog saw a redhead female especially bubbly (maybe because the wife was frantic when she pulled the dog away) the dog would grawl and want to bite. Eventually, the dog did bite a woman again (didn't tell you about the first red head) with red hair. My point is, by bring your dog to work, you could be conditioning him the same way. Your dog may associate the amping with your office worker's hair color and be aggressive with every woman with, say blonde hair color.

Like DragonSlater, I think it is cruel and unusual punishment to bring your dog to work and subject him to being amped. I wish those collars you mentioned were not legal. I can accept invisible fences but I am sure there could have been a way to have trained my friend's dog with the invisible fence at a lower ampage without the life long effects of this dogs. Hey, I know accidents happen, some of you may have read my post about accidently almost posioning my 5 cats by putting Advantix for dog instead of cats. Turns out Advantix is extremely toxic for cats! Beware!
 
Old 10-18-2007, 03:05 PM
 
Location: Metrowest area of Massachusetts
575 posts, read 3,465,654 times
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Quote:
Second.....what do you mean by remote collar? Third.....I still don't see any reason to take a dog around people that when they get to close he starts shaking because he is over amped and wanting to bite. (your words) To me, by the time you are taking him to work he should already be able to be around people without prong or control collar.
Certain breed are genetically guardy. My dogs are Malinois from old Belgian bloodlines. They are over-amped dogs out of the box, that's why they are affectionately called Mali-gators. One is being trained for drugs and the other accelerates and both are being trained for my protection. And for as guardy as they are their affection tops it. Even to strangers once they realize no threat is present you will be slurped to death.

Bloodlines and genetics, take for example the Australian Shep's. They are genetic Herder's, have an over-the-top prey drive so they have to be trained not to kill the herd but instead move it. They have to be under control. How do you think they achieve this? With treats or a stern voice? Nope.

Over-amped and wanting to DEFENSE bite since he was unsure if she was threat or not and by him sitting through that situation and LISTENING to me, and then again and again, doing it over and over again will CONDITION him that it's not a threat and to eventually as he grows ignore it. That takes years/maturity in the dog before he will be calm while in every kind of situation. You cannot keep a dog away from people and expect to have a social dog.

He is young and unsure of his role right now. He gets over amped because he wants to take control.

You have to put a dog in a situation over and over again to be confident in any given situation that you can say, 'he will' or he 'won't' react a certain way, otherwise you couldn't take them anywhere and you would create/harvest an anti-social messed-up in the head dog. It's called conditioning.

The collars are responsible and a smart backup safety measure which give control, same as if the dog started to run toward a street (traffic) better the dog takes a pull of the prong or a zap of the remote than runs in the street and get hurt or killed.
 
Old 10-18-2007, 03:48 PM
 
98 posts, read 362,954 times
Reputation: 41
Default How Sad....

My girl, Athena, is a rescue dog...her litter was abandoned out in the country in rural Nebraska. She is afraid of everything: large mailboxes, trashcans, gutters in the street, loud vehicles, beeping vehicles, etc. My husband and I take her for walks all the time and after 4 yrs, one would think she would be used to all this stuff, but unfortunately she is not.

She is very affectionate and needs lots of attention. More than likely she would be very afraid of two loud dryers blowing on her. I would be very upset to find her cowering in a crate bcs of this. The least the employee could have done was sit with the dog and give her/him a little attention...wouldn't it get hot w/two blowers on it for extended period of time? I am very disturbed by this and am glad that my dog does not need more grooming than a simple bath, towel dry, and brushing...at home!!

You can submit a 'letter to the editor' and without naming names express your thoughts and feelings about what you saw at the store. That's the point of the 'letters to the editor'.

I am glad you started this thread, maybe pet owners will think twice about where they are taking their pets and I am glad that you tried to stand up for this dog.
 
Old 10-18-2007, 03:58 PM
 
1,055 posts, read 4,303,389 times
Reputation: 1157
Chick...Oh please! Tell yourself what ever you want. My dog does well in any situation and around all kinds of people. He will let me know with his body language if he approves of someone or not. I didn't have to train him with a shock or prong collar. I don't have anything against prong collars, if used correctly it's a great tool.

I don't feel like it's my dogs job to protect me, it's my job to protect my dog. His size and bark alone are enough to deter anyone that would think twice about coming into my home or bothering me when we are out.

There are other ways to socialize dogs other then having them at work and getting over amped and growling at people when they approach you.
 
Old 10-18-2007, 04:31 PM
 
830 posts, read 864,192 times
Reputation: 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by chick View Post
Certain breed are genetically guardy. My dogs are Malinois from old Belgian bloodlines. They are over-amped dogs out of the box, that's why they are affectionately called Mali-gators. One is being trained for drugs and the other accelerates and both are being trained for my protection. And for as guardy as they are their affection tops it. Even to strangers once they realize no threat is present you will be slurped to death.

Bloodlines and genetics, take for example the Australian Shep's. They are genetic Herder's, have an over-the-top prey drive so they have to be trained not to kill the herd but instead move it. They have to be under control. How do you think they achieve this? With treats or a stern voice? Nope.

Over-amped and wanting to DEFENSE bite since he was unsure if she was threat or not and by him sitting through that situation and LISTENING to me, and then again and again, doing it over and over again will CONDITION him that it's not a threat and to eventually as he grows ignore it. That takes years/maturity in the dog before he will be calm while in every kind of situation. You cannot keep a dog away from people and expect to have a social dog.

He is young and unsure of his role right now. He gets over amped because he wants to take control.

You have to put a dog in a situation over and over again to be confident in any given situation that you can say, 'he will' or he 'won't' react a certain way, otherwise you couldn't take them anywhere and you would create/harvest an anti-social messed-up in the head dog. It's called conditioning.

The collars are responsible and a smart backup safety measure which give control, same as if the dog started to run toward a street (traffic) better the dog takes a pull of the prong or a zap of the remote than runs in the street and get hurt or killed.

If you need that much protection, why not dig a whole in the ground and cover it with stray.
 
Old 10-18-2007, 04:39 PM
 
251 posts, read 1,192,359 times
Reputation: 131
This one is a hard call. I for one, am not a fan of the big pet store/grooming chains. While there is occasionally a good groomer in these places...they are rare. And unfortunately there is no standard of training that is recognized. Yes...there is the NGDA but that is really no guarantee of anything as to the 'common sense' part that is required to be a professional groomer. There is no licensing required either which I also feel is ridiculous....sorry fellow groomers but I have seen too much abuse (hiring illegals with no training and for cheap wages for one) and am starting to thinking maybe licensing is the only way to weed out these 'bad apples'.

There is also too much reliance on cage dryers IMHO. This allows the groomer to do lots of dogs at once. Sometimes it is a good idea....a husky for instance will get a good snooze in while I do a poodle or whatever. But pet owners are a bit to blame in this area......they want a great job, etc., etc., but they don't want to pay what is necessary to make that time worth it....and not that would be easy either...the overhead in grooming is insane and it is a wonder how these shops stay in business!!! So the groomer is forced to crowd the dogs in....much like a doctor.

BTW an early appointment, first thing when they walk in the door appointment is better then later. Mornings may seem crazy but it usually isn't until about 11am that things get out of control.

Anyways...as far as the dog being abused. Again....a hard call. We often forget how intelligent our little buddies are....and dogs figure out very quickly 'who' is part of the grooming process. Anyone who 'doesn't belong' is a way out of that building! Especially with older dogs....their hearing and sight goes but that nose still works and sometimes all it takes is a whiff of perfume or a tone in someone's voice to set them off thinking they can go home. Even a dog that was a bit senile (often shown by walking aimlessy and barking in a cage) will associate the smell of a 'different person' with being done and leaving. And we forget exactly how sensitive those noses are. A dog that is terrified of a dryer will be flattened against the wall of the cage, or biting the bars and trying to get out.

So I hate to say it but by hanging around you were probably upsetting the dog worse!

Sometimes towel drying is not an option. There maybe be finish clipping that needs done (whether or not you think it needs done,you must remember someone else who owns the dog may be insistent), the dog might attack the groomer while being dried with the fluff dryer (especially when old and senile)...there are lots of reasons why a cage dryer is sometimes the better option. YOU might think it is a nice day out, but bathing does drop the body temp for awhile which in an older dog comes back more slowly. And these are just a few things.

Now....I absolutely agree the dog SHOULD NOT BE LEFT UNATTENDED!!!!!! EVER!!!!!
That I would definitely complain about and it is situations like this that I am talking about in the 'common sense' department.

So I wouldn't call it abuse....just stupidity.
 
Old 10-18-2007, 04:48 PM
 
Location: Metrowest area of Massachusetts
575 posts, read 3,465,654 times
Reputation: 310
Quote:
Originally Posted by dogpaw View Post
Chick...Oh please! Tell yourself what ever you want. My dog does well in any situation and around all kinds of people. He will let me know with his body language if he approves of someone or not. I didn't have to train him with a shock or prong collar. I don't have anything against prong collars, if used correctly it's a great tool.

I don't feel like it's my dogs job to protect me, it's my job to protect my dog. His size and bark alone are enough to deter anyone that would think twice about coming into my home or bothering me when we are out.

There are other ways to socialize dogs other then having them at work and getting over amped and growling at people when they approach you.
You think so huh. and you are a qualified trainer? I didn't think so. You DON'T have working dogs so you have no knowledge of them. Try one, it will test your so called skill. See a professional police dog trainer, you will be enlightened.

Your job is to protect your dog against other animals and your dogs job is to protect you against bad people. Apparently you don't know that difference.

You can bet your ass it's my dogs job to protect me from bad people as I get in there, if I can with him kicking ass or he gives me the time to process what's happening and make a even deeper decision. Things in the real world happen fast.

You can recall the dog off a rapist or someone who breaks into your house, you can't recall a bullet, which I am not adverse to using if I was in fear enough.

I do a agree a barking dog is deterrent to MOST but not ALL and in my line of work I feel a hell of allot 'safer' with my dogs.

and what do you think, my use of the prong is not correctly? Well it is. My dogs and myself train every week with a highly regarded professional who train state PD's., PPD's and Shutzhund - French & Belgian Ring dogs, so give it a rest.
 
Old 10-18-2007, 05:01 PM
 
1,055 posts, read 4,303,389 times
Reputation: 1157
I have a German Shepherd Dog........So yes I have a working dog. Nuff Said.
 
Old 10-18-2007, 05:04 PM
 
830 posts, read 864,192 times
Reputation: 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by chick View Post
You think so huh. and you are a qualified trainer? I didn't think so. You DON'T have working dogs so you have no knowledge of them. Try one, it will test your so called skill. See a professional police dog trainer, you will be enlightened.

Your job is to protect your dog against other animals and your dogs job is to protect you against bad people. Apparently you don't know that difference.

You can bet your ass it's my dogs job to protect me from bad people as I get in there, if I can with him kicking ass or he gives me the time to process what's happening and make a even deeper decision. Things in the real world happen fast.

You can recall the dog off a rapist or someone who breaks into your house, you can't recall a bullet, which I am not adverse to using if I was in fear enough.

I do a agree a barking dog is deterrent to MOST but not ALL and in my line of work I feel a hell of allot 'safer' with my dogs.

and what do you think, my use of the prong is not correctly? Well it is. My dogs and myself train every week with a highly regarded professional who train state PD's., PPD's and Shutzhund - French & Belgian Ring dogs, so give it a rest.
You give it a rest or go start a thread so you can get feedback that will be from people who is as "smart" as you seem to think about the subject. I knew from your first post you weren't trying to make a point with your example .... felt more like you were being passive/aggresive to start an arguement.
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