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Old 10-19-2007, 11:23 AM
 
Location: Metrowest area of Massachusetts
575 posts, read 3,469,034 times
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Gypsy you are confusing a protective instinct that a dog has with one that is trained to protect you and really fight, no matter what is tossed at him.

For example when my male is being worked and in that zone, a .357 going off over his head (he doesn't even hear it, and if he does, you'd never know it) because he is in tunnel vision mode. This helps to proof a dog but other noises and distractions are used too.

There is a big difference in what we are talking about here.

Genetics, and a level headed dog come from proper breeding and I don't mean watered down us bred dogs. I mean dogs from good stock.

But hey we can argue this to doomsday and everyone has their own beliefs.
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Old 10-19-2007, 11:40 AM
 
960 posts, read 1,360,683 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chick View Post
They are adorable dogs. I think they are beautiful. They also cannot do the damage to a STRANGER that a Rottie could do.

Many dogs have that instinct which is just that, instinct. If a stranger started really kicking your dogs ass he would probably retreat and the only way to know what he would do, one way or the other, is to put him under that kind of real pressure. I know my dogs would not retreat but instead fight harder.

A well trained dog is much less of a liability than an untrained dog.

UNTRAINED guardy dog breeds that could bite have no distinction between someones face or leg. They have to be taught any body part is ok, just NOT the face.

That womans Belgian who protected her, I am sure was a well trained dog. Most people do NOT talk about the training their dogs have and most do not own Mal's without training them to some degree.

I agree, that in order to really know if your dog will take one for the team, they have to be trained to do so. My Miniature Pinscher is slightly on the nuts side, (due to head injuries from a previous abusive owner) so I truly wouldn't know how far she would go, if forced into that kind of situation.
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Old 10-19-2007, 11:43 AM
 
Location: West Virginia
12,448 posts, read 31,550,188 times
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Katie would! My son tries and she goes after him, & when I even act like I am going to smack him she goes after me..Heaven help any one that tries! She is a pem corgi not a pit as most of you know.
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Old 10-19-2007, 01:01 PM
 
1,177 posts, read 8,085,682 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chick View Post
Allot of people falsely think their dog will protect them when in 'tested' reality with a decoy using a hidden suit, it won't happen. It takes allot of hard training hours, hundreds of hours, under many different conditions to produce a dog that can really protect you from an attacker or multiple attackers. That's why a done up dog costs so much money.
A "done up" dog cost so much because the American people will pay it and marketers know that. There are some good, reputable trainers in which dogs only cost $7000-15000. Sometimes a little more but the dog was obviously worth it, sometimes the dog itself was a lot to acquire untrained. These are people who's dog hold true and they have a good reputation. There are trainers who train for different things and abilities. Prices run different depending on what you want and whats involved. The one trainer I knew beforehand was very reliable with a good reputation and also trained all the K9 officers for the entire county. They also did obedience+ for anyone wanting it on their dog (if the dog was good enough for PP and could pass the eval.). Some just got OB trainer of course. They also did boarding too. The owner was also trained as well during the process. There dogs were not outrageously priced. I'm still learning the trainers here, the ones who sell their own or have classes. I want to make sure whichever one I decide to go with exclusively has everything I want, done the way I want and knows WTH they are doing.

Then you take a dog that is $40-50,000 and is supposed to be some super hero, trained to do all these almost magical things in any situation. This dog is sold to the layman over the internet. No handlers experience in owning/handling and keeping up the training of the dog. A dog isn't just "trained for life". They need to run through the paces to remain sharp and the person needs to know how to correctly handle the dog. How do you sell a protection dog to someone without ever even speaking to them? They do a "Buy It Now" via paypal pick the quantity and thats it. In same cases it works a little different and contact is MADE before the sell, in other cases this trainer/breeder sells to anyone that sends them this ungodly amount of money for something special. People are easily fulled and buy into the hype. Somehow these dogs are trained better then everyone else personal protection dogs, better then K9s and military dogs but cost twice the price or more. The trainer has only 5yrs experience vs decades. I know you probably were not in anyway referring to people like this. I just think it should be put out there for those interested to beware.

Sometimes it does actually protect too? There are several untrained tested dogs that have passed. Others didn't. They barked and then did nothing. They ran away when the attacker became aggressive. Or they continued to bark and jump on the guy, run around and never land a bite. Some did a nip, stopped, barked, ran around, came back did it again. Some bit and when the person became aggressive cowered back. Their bluff was called. The other dogs went for the bite, was hit with the stick, yelled at, ect and didn't let go.

Some people I know won't even start to PP train a dog until its been tested untrained to see where its drive and head is at. One dog I also know of was tested for a robbery, no prior training and hit the decoy and this was done with little light in the home. I've seen dogs hit with no training and shake it pretty good. Some of this can be attributed to natural instinct/prey drive the dog gets in its head the natural instinct of holding/shaking whatever is in its mouth. These dogs were shown to work very highly in defense drive and not be prey or sleeve driven at all and not be distracted, they have their eyes on the man no matter what. The gunfire is introduced as the dog is school and the PP training stars/continues.

Quote:
One deep bite and hanging on produces the least amount of damage. Multiple bites, or mouthing, produces allot of damage and makes it worse than it had to be. This isn't acceptable. Dogs trained this way are trained to take 1 deep bite but personally if it came down to a real situation, I don't acre if my dogs take 100 bites to protect me.
Somethings are natural in the a breed. A holding bite is natural in the AB, not multiple bites. This is also natural to the American Pit Bull Terrier, although they lack taking full mouth bites in many cases. Even a trained Pit Bull might have a problem with this. The Alano Espanol is supposed to be very good with a natural full mouth bite, don't have any personal breed experience.

There are many arguments (from people who do train) about what is best and not best. Even from various successful trainers.

Quote:
A rapist or robber hitting a barking dog, may get the dog to bite, use a frontal bite but let go but they are not trained to hang on and have a controlled-calm bite and stay until they are told to 'ous'. That takes training.

I do think some dogs will nip bite, growl etc, as stated above but take for example, that Bordello who if trained properly could put up one hell-of-a kick ass fight, didn't attack until he was hit, so it was defense or fear, or a combination, and he didn't stay into it because the bad guy got away.
Bordello? LOL Do you know what a Bordello is? It is the same a brothel.

Are you referring to the Boerboel I spoke of? Before you down what happened learn the breed first. It is their nature. Also the nature of the bullmastiff to hold, although I'm not sure nowadays that any would do more then that.

The Boerboel is bred as a guardian and hunter. Still used for the purpose very currently. Despite what some people think-that large game are vicious fighters, large game would actually rather not engage so therefore they make "simple" prey for the large dog & hunter. Large game is easy to corner. If they have to engage or are attacked they will defend themselves but usually they are not attacked.

They have a hell load of defense drive and very low prey drive. Which also makes them great for being a property guardian that won't want to chase a small dog that walks buy or a feral cat on your farm. They have more defense drive them many trainers or used to and some don't know how to handle it.

On their home front when not hunting they will not leave your property. Any intruder be it man or beast that comes on the property has an opportunity to leave. Because the Boerboel will chase it off your property(if the intruder runs). If the intruder can get away then the Boerboel will let it vs a dog that will continue to chase until it has run down the person. Once it hits the end of your property it stops. You can have these dogs without fence and they won't wander, they won't see someone on another property and try to get them either. Some people might think it is a weak guardian because of this (let's intruder leave) but it isn't done out of weakness at all its down because the trait has been bred into the dog over time. I would be in less trouble here if this happened to me. I could be criminally charged if my dog assaults someone off my property. On my property I can't be. Although a suit could be filled against me either way, same if I shoot them, but less likely (probably) if I shot them. If I shoot them when they are fleeing or trying to get away yup I could be charged with assault. Same if my dog chases them off my property and runs them down.

If the intruder doesn't want to leave/aggresses they will bite and the person can normally still flee depending on the amount of aggression. Like the dude just punched her, not a big deal and he was bit. If they intruder wants a serious fight and doesn't take the warning the dog will usually give it one. Being that they are not popular here you might not find much info. However in South Africa there have been untrained Boerboels who engaged in a home invasion and effective stopped the person. They did do an attack and not just a bite when the person was a serious threat. This guy in the states that hit the dog wasn't a serious threat and was unarmed. Like I said though, there are several pretty credible stories when the Boerboel fully engaged. They will go for a holding bite and fight the intruder. Their most deadliest attack is the the throat and thats the only thing that worries me about them. I think that might be due to again hunting big game, on the off chance when they do engage to go for the threat is the easiest to subdue an animal, the same way the large game (predator) hunts their own prey. Now you can't expect this of every Boerboel, instincts are there but how strong they are depends on breeding. Some do not have such a courageous temperament, others are too aggressive.

If were to take any untrained guardian it would be the Boerboel. I would feel safest with them having the least chance to be in legal trouble. Other breeds training is a good idea, but still not for every owner.

Quote:
Do I think my dogs, who are in training to protect me and far from being done would protect me? I hope so. They are being worked as a tag team so I certainly hope the would step up to the plate in a real situation. Maybe in 6 months I could say confidentially 'yes' I know my dogs would protect me. I hope never to be in a position to test it though.

It's a very involved process training a dog like this. They are trained to protect on command, or protect upon aggression toward you, and have to ous when told.

They can't fire off on someone on their own because they think the guy yelling and flailing his arms is a threat, they have to wait until the guy actually lays a threating hand on you and not a hand shake or a hug. They have to know the difference through training. It's allot of work especially for the handler.
We are supposed to be discussing untrained dogs here. Not trained dogs. The ability of an untrained dog. I'm well versed in training methods and different ring sports. Actually some SCH dogs have failed horribly (and unfortunately) in real life attack situations. I know what it takes for the training. I know what it takes of the dogs mental skills and ability. Believe I do. It is a good post though so others understand. I get very tired of the people yelling and complaining about "why are you training dogs to attack people, you jerk" Stupid stuff like that when they have NO IDEA! A trained dog is far safer and reliable then an untrained dog. They will attack when the situation called for and when told to do so, more importantly they will STOP when told to do so. Some people say I would never train my dog to attack they will protect me when need be (likely not anyway) but the question would be so HOW DO YOU GET THEM TO STOP?!?! I don't know where people's heads are.

Quote:
In the real world there are allot of nuts out there. A large dog or barking dog will not deter them. And at the same time a well trained and focused dog will not be deterred either. No fear from either, they are both on a mission.
SO TRUE!!
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Old 10-19-2007, 01:03 PM
 
Location: Florida
1,738 posts, read 7,515,108 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katie1 View Post
Katie would! My son tries and she goes after him, & when I even act like I am going to smack him she goes after me..Heaven help any one that tries! She is a pem corgi not a pit as most of you know.
same here! i don't care if it's trained or not CODY SAYS "No FIGHTING IN THE HOUSE!"
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Old 10-19-2007, 01:06 PM
 
1,177 posts, read 8,085,682 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katie1 View Post
Katie would! My son tries and she goes after him, & when I even act like I am going to smack him she goes after me..Heaven help any one that tries! She is a pem corgi not a pit as most of you know.
What? This doesn't sound like a safe dog to me. A dog that doesn't know the difference isn't good. That isn't a temperament that you want. They shouldn't be going for family members who are not in a serious confrontation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kelly3120 View Post
my little bro was visiting and we were playing around and got into a wrestle match and the dog charged him when he was pretending to punch me. I think that's protection!!! And he loves my little bro, but he loves me more =)

Also, if a man(repair man,etc) comes into th household and the husband isn't home, Cody is in a uproar the whole time(unless it's my dad or family). I think a robber could easily scare him as he's scared if someone raises a hand to him, but the barking goes from silly 20 pound dog to rottie when he's in protection mode.

No is a women robber came in he would wiggle his little butt right up to her and talk her into taking him home.
Again I wouldn't accept that behavior from my dog. Charging when you are playing. They need to be able to differentiate. What would have happened if his defense was biting and he bit your brother for what he thought was doing harm.

Your dog sounds like he might have some fear aggression going on. Well at least I don't think he would be reliable in a real confrontation. No way.
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Old 10-19-2007, 01:24 PM
 
Location: Florida
1,738 posts, read 7,515,108 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by APBT_Samara View Post
What? This doesn't sound like a safe dog to me. A dog that doesn't know the difference isn't good. That isn't a temperament that you want. They shouldn't be going for family members who are not in a serious confrontation.



Again I wouldn't accept that behavior from my dog. Charging when you are playing. They need to be able to differentiate. What would have happened if his defense was biting and he bit your brother for what he thought was doing harm.

Your dog sounds like he might have some fear aggression going on. Well at least I don't think he would be reliable in a real confrontation. No way.
maybe... but he never bites him. he just gets between us.
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Old 10-19-2007, 01:47 PM
 
1,397 posts, read 4,403,943 times
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Portia and Hef would definitely protect us. As is, if you don't give Portia your hand for her to sniff it, and "approve it", she goes CRAZY!!!She thinks that you are going to hit us or something. But if you give her the hand, she is the sweetest dog. The same with Hef.
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Old 10-19-2007, 01:47 PM
 
Location: Marion, IN
8,191 posts, read 28,131,265 times
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I hear an awful lot of judgmental statements going on here. The question was "Do you think your dog would protect you?" It was not "Hey, let me slam your dog." I don't personally know ANYONE who would train their dog to attack. And I don't want to know anyone who would. I don't personally know ANYONE who would pay the kind of money being mentioned here for either a dog, or attack training.

Just my opinion, whatever it is worth. I am sure it isn't worth much to anyone who would pay $15,000 for a dog and $40,000 to have it trained in the proper way to bite someone.
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Old 10-19-2007, 01:47 PM
 
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow!
430 posts, read 1,153,148 times
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We have a little 9 pound Maltese, no one strange coming into this house had better touch me.....was she "trained", nope not one bit. She will sit on my lap when a stranger is in the house, when they get up, she stands up (on my lap)....I think that's pretty protective, although I wouldn't say she could do much harm to someone but she certainly would try her best!

My son came over last week and grabbed me in a big bear hug, I wasn't expecting it and kinda yelled....he got bit! She didn't do much damage through his jeans, but you could see her upset when she did it.....she knew him, but also knew Momma yelped! Her first instinct was to go after him...afterwards she put her tail between her legs and her ears and head dropped....she looked at him (and the ears came back up) then looked at me and they went back down. You could just tell she KNEW him and she felt she shouldn't of bit him, but on the other hand, she also knew he made me yell and she didn't like that one bit.....he was very understanding when I yelled at her, and said "Mom, that's what she's suppose to do, don't yell at her"....so I stopped....she sat in my lap the entire time he was there! But, on his way out he stopped and knelt down, let her smell his hand and he picked her up, she gave him a big old sloppy kiss.....

O.Nana
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