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Old 10-20-2007, 03:17 PM
 
Location: Hooterville, NV
216 posts, read 734,321 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PitBullMommie1206 View Post
My husband and I are also "pit bull" owners, we own three WoNdErFuL American Pit Bull Terriers.
I didn't realize you have 3 already! Wow, you must have alot of energy
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Old 10-20-2007, 03:19 PM
 
Location: West Virginia
12,386 posts, read 31,331,354 times
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Sorry I did not do BREED rescue..ANY animal that needed help I helped! I will not jack this thread to list them all!

Last edited by Katie1; 10-20-2007 at 03:30 PM..
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Old 10-20-2007, 06:01 PM
 
1,177 posts, read 8,068,728 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLongestJourney... View Post
The fact that he is chained is very much a concern to me. From everything I have read chained dogs, regardless of breed, are the most dangerous dogs. They will aggressively attack any one or anything that invades their space while chained. There are enough horror stories about pits due to bad owners; they contribute to ignorance over the breed and make it much harder for responsible dog owners. The conditions you describe sound to me like this dog is being set up to be a tragedy in the making.
That is a myth. Please don't believe everything you read. Take the time to do a little research or some experience before you take something as truth. Believing such myths is no better then people who believe all Pit Bulls are vicious killers.

I put my dogs outside on a daily basis, some longer then others, it depends on that dogs needs/wants and the weather, ect. I use chain, kennel, fence. I'm reluctant to leave any APBT in a fenced yard without supervision. Our kennels have tops, rebar or cement perimeter to keep the dogs in. My dogs are all extremely friendly towards people!! Most can at least play with each other, some might not like a certain dog. Some have a high prey drive but are generally good with "my" cats (which are actually feral and strays). Some would kill a cat if given the chance, many dogs of any breed will do the same even if raise indoors and let outside with free yard roam, dogs have predatory instincts. Most can play/get along with even friends dogs or strange dogs. It just depends on the dogs personality and drives, so while some of my dogs don't like other dogs or are prey driven there has been no correlation to a chain/aggression.

APBTs are most often chained as this is one of the most reliable means of keeping them safe. It is a shame that someone who would be acting responsible with their dog might be seen as a cause for concern. It is also a big, big shame that some APBT (and other) owners think its ok to leave their dog chained 24/7. (Like this person) That is not fair to the dog. I have observed many dogs being kept like this on large yards, but what I have not observed is still a dog that attacks anything and everything. I have been on many APBT yards where the dogs are chained just about 24/7 and have never observed such crazed behavior. One guys place I went to he was not even home. I had permission to be there.

I just recently had an experience with my friends chained dog. This was a week ago. He is a 5yrs old APBT. My husband and I had to move stuff near where he was chained, we had to move sheet metal and other large items which required us to cross where he was chained. He never went crazy or acted in an aggressive manner. We walked by him with big, heavy, sometimes loud items. He patiently sat there and waited to be pet. In some cases he would come up to me and brush me with his muzzle and I would pet him. He never acted aggressive or even overly exited like an untrained dog. He didn't act timid or fearful. He is a good dog with a good temperament. A chain isn't going to change that. When we went to get some more stuff I looked at him sitting a small cat was sitting right under him. I wish I would have had my camera because it would have been a cute picture. He obviously doesn't aggressively attack anyone or anything that comes in his chain spot.

What you are speaking of is territorial aggression and in some cases a possible defense drive. It is not common for an APBT to have a high territorial drive. However I understand that in some breeds it can be very high, especially in guardian breeds that have a high defense drive. Chaining a dog of such nature for extended period of time would likely be seen to cause outward aggression, but the same would hold true of kenneling this dog or keeping it within your home. Not socializing and training a dog of that nature makes an incredible liability and much more serious and faster then an most APBT or other breeds that doesn't have those traits.

All dogs no matter what need to be trained, socialized and given attention. Otherwise you will see some type of behavior and temperament problem. These will be in various degrees depending on breed, age, individual dog, ect, but will exist in all forms of being kept without social contact. Seeing 2 males recently, 1 being kenneled and 1 being chained I have observed the same behavior problems in each. Both dogs are very timid. neither is aggressive. The chained male seems to want affection, he was excited to see people, very excited, jumping around and such but when you go up to him he drops to the ground out of fear. The kenneled dog also acts like he wants attention if you are at the kennel door, if you open it go go in he runs and hides behind the dog house or cowers. I know that neither of these dogs have had adequate attention. Nothing I can do because its not illegal how they are being kept. There really isn't anything the law can do to force people to give their dogs attention. Even some dogs kept inside are in crates almost 24/7 or locked in a room or basement so people who do that it would be hard to report them if their were a law about giving dogs attention. It sucks but we really don't know if all these pet owners are giving attention and playing with their dogs daily, not unless we put cameras in all their homes.

I find it very responsible of me to put my dog on a chain when she goes out so that I know she won't escape or anything like that. She will be happier to have more room and freedom on a chain then locked in a kennel (cage) which she hates, just like her Dad and Grandma and her Dads litter mates. She will not get off the chain as she will get over the 7ft fence. I'm certain her daughter will be the same, very athletic and have that "escape artist" blood in her. Some of my dogs are pretty much safe in a fence, they don't know they can jump or climb it. Others are fine with going in a kennel too.

I find irresponsible and concerning the lady I know with a Pit/Lab mix that gets away from the yard. She did then use a cable which the dog get off of too and gets out of the yard. She put her out while she was getting ready for work and the dog was no where to be found when she went to let her in. So she had to run around looking for the dog, all the while late for work and 6 month pregnant. She finally was able to find her. She lives on a busy avenue, residential homes in the middle of stores, shops and gas stations. She wanted a chain set up, my husband put one in for her. She used it like twice and said "I can't stand to look at her with the chain on". I'm like OMG is she going to be able to look at her dog run over in the middle of the road!!!! Her Mom was there and was like it only for 15 minutes a day, it keeps her safe and out of trouble. She has had to chase the dog down yet more times, one day it won't be so lucky.

It was mentioned in another thread that Pits are "unforgiving" or can't take abuse/nelgect and come out happy. Its obvious in the OP's post this dog is doing fine with an ok temperament. In the other thread I also talked about my rescues and foster. Of which were abused or neglect. One from a 4ft thick logging chain where she lived 24/7. She has no aggression problems and neither do my other male or female. They went through a lot in their lives but are not aggressive. All they want is love. That is how the breed is!

Keeping dog chained up all the time is bad, but this applies to any situation where the dog is kept without socialization, attention and contact. So it should be differentiated between. What I find concerning in this situation is that the owners don't care for the dogs with attention and time or medical attention either.
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Old 10-20-2007, 07:19 PM
 
Location: Hooterville, NV
216 posts, read 734,321 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by APBT_Samara View Post
It was mentioned in another thread that Pits are "unforgiving" or can't take abuse/nelgect and come out happy. Its obvious in the OP's post this dog is doing fine with an ok temperament. In the other thread I also talked about my rescues and foster. Of which were abused or neglect. One from a 4ft thick logging chain where she lived 24/7. She has no aggression problems and neither do my other male or female. They went through a lot in their lives but are not aggressive. All they want is love. That is how the breed is!
This is so true. I have been around pits that have been through some of the most horrendouse experiences and they remain loving and friendly. I don't know that the same could be said for all breeds. Pits are not easily "broken" so I don't know where this other person got their idea.
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Old 10-20-2007, 09:48 PM
 
Location: New York, NY
74 posts, read 269,905 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by APBT_Samara View Post
That is a myth. Please don't believe everything you read. Take the time to do a little research or some experience before you take something as truth. Believing such myths is no better then people who believe all Pit Bulls are vicious killers.
I don't want this thread to get too far off topic - perhaps we can start another thread concerning the practice of chaining. However, I will say I have researched this subject - I do not take everything I read as truth without reviewing the supporting evidence and then making up my own mind. I am a firm supporter of pit bulls; if I were the type to buy into myths I would certainly not be an owner of a pit bull or a defender of the breed. That said I do believe chaining dogs can contribute to their becoming aggressive. You are right in that perhaps I should differentiate between dogs constantly chained and those occasionally chained but otherwise cared for by their owners, but it seems obvious to me what the OP described were dogs that were continuously chained and neglected and I think my concern is valid. Here are just a few links describing the practice that I am referring to (and which sounds like what is going on with these dogs):

The Humane Society (http://www.hsus.org/pets/issues_affecting_our_pets/animal_abuse_and_neglect/the_facts_about_chaining_or_tethering_dogs.html - broken link)
Helping Animals
Unchain Your Dog
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Old 10-21-2007, 12:26 AM
 
1,177 posts, read 8,068,728 times
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I wasn't trying to go OT. People have thrown those links at me many times. They can believe what they want, you and I are both free to be of differing opinions. I've had a great deal of experience with 1000s of Pit Bulls (mainly chained) without having aggression problems so I go by my own experience. People have different experience which contributes to their opinions so its no big deal.

I did read what the OP is saying, which is actually the opposite of what is claimed. The dog is friendly towards people and is happily playing with the OP/family. The dogs are ok with each other. I think that they should talk to the owner and see if they would give the dog to them. That way the dog would get better life and proper attention and not live the rest of his life on a chain.

It can contribute to aggression in certain breeds/dogs. I think I did clarify that. However its not the chain, its the lack of social contact, socialization and training. I don't see why people can't understand this. Anyone who knows dogs behavior should easily understand this.

"A chained dog feels rejected and doesn't understand why."

I wonder why a dog that is in a 10x10 feces covered kennel (4 sided prison/cage) 24/7 doesn't feel rejected?

"Imagine being chained to a tree year after year. You watch the door hoping someone will come play. No one ever does. You long to run, but you can only pace."

Imagine being locked in a 10x10 cage year after year. You are a prisoner watching the door hoping someone will come and play. No one ever does. You run but can only pace in a circle around and around the kennel. You bark, dig, chew up your dog house. You are bored and lonely.

This is just ridiculous to say only one form of solitary confinement as bad. Let the rest of the dogs suffer? I don't see why people don't make the connection of why a chained dog has issues. Why they find it so hard to accept that its not the chain and its not just chained dogs. Dogs everywhere are suffering from the same type of neglect due to being confined to kennels, crates and basements. Why these people even get dogs in the first place I don't know.

I'm still waiting on an update from the OP. What will happen with the dog?
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Old 10-21-2007, 08:52 AM
 
Location: Hooterville, NV
216 posts, read 734,321 times
Reputation: 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by APBT_Samara View Post
I think I did clarify that. However its not the chain, its the lack of social contact, socialization and training.
Which can happen whether the dog is chained, crated or in some other way isolated and not allowed any interaction - agreed. That's the point though, that dogs that are kept in any of these ways 24/7 lack socialization. It doesn't matter how the dog is isolated, just that it is.

If you keep your dog for a bit on a chain the yard in the way you specified it's entirely different from people who keep their dog out there it's entire life. Which is what those links, and what I think TheLongestJourney, is referring to.

Quote:
I'm still waiting on an update from the OP. What will happen with the dog?
Yeah, me too.
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Old 10-21-2007, 09:06 AM
 
Location: New York, NY
74 posts, read 269,905 times
Reputation: 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by APBT_Samara View Post
However its not the chain, its the lack of social contact, socialization and training. I don't see why people can't understand this. Anyone who knows dogs behavior should easily understand this.
Like most things in life there are degrees - there are a lot of people who chain their dogs and then completely ignore them and that is what it sounds like the OP described. (Or isolate them in some other manner as you described, but that is not how these dogs are being contained so I thought it irrelevent to the post.). I think chaining is more potentially dangerous because it is easier for a child/other animal, etc to come in contact with a dog that is aggressive than might otherwise be with other forms of containment. Also, there does seem to be a correlation between chaining a dog 24/7 (or otherwise confining) and lack of socialization, training, etc. Someone who keeps their dog chained 24/7 is more likely to be someone who neglects their dog and does not socialize or train it. So for a dog that does become aggressive due to lack of socialization, training (which is highly correlated with chaining/confining 24/7) to be chained in a yard or other outside area is putting the dog is a position where children/animals, can easily cross it's path and invoke the dogs territorial protective instinct. All ingredients for a tragedy. I have seen pits or pit mixes that are highly territorial - they do exist. A woman in my neighborhood has to keep her pit away from other dogs while he is on his leash becomes he becomes protective of the territory around his leash; this dog is otherwise fine in the dog park. It only takes one territorial pit bull confined 24/7 and neglected who then becomes aggressive as a result of lack of socialization/training to harm a child that crosses it's path to add to the media hype regarding pit bulls and no pit bull owner needs that. Not to mention the tragedy of a child/person/animal being hurt by the dog.

I do not think that chaining automatically equates to aggression, however, I do think it is a risk factor. It is prudent to avoid risk factors where possible. Not all people who smoke get lung cancer, however, knowing the risks I elect not to smoke because I choose not to increase my chances of getting lung cancer. These dogs are friendly now, but left in the condition they are in several years this MIGHT cease to be the case. Is it 100% gauranteed? Of course not...they may very well still be sweet and affectionate. But why risk it?

I will agree to disagree on this point. It sounds like you care for your dogs very much which is something these dogs, by what is described, don't have the benefit of.
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Old 10-21-2007, 03:42 PM
 
1,177 posts, read 8,068,728 times
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Originally Posted by Mom2Five View Post
Which can happen whether the dog is chained, crated or in some other way isolated and not allowed any interaction - agreed. That's the point though, that dogs that are kept in any of these ways 24/7 lack socialization. It doesn't matter how the dog is isolated, just that it is.

If you keep your dog for a bit on a chain the yard in the way you specified it's entirely different from people who keep their dog out there it's entire life. Which is what those links, and what I think TheLongestJourney, is referring to.

Yeah, me too.
At least we seem to agree! I know its different, thanks for seeing that. I do know what it is referring to chaining (24/7). My point is that the average person and all these groups with their info never say its isolation period, just that its chaining. Which means they are overlooking the rest of the suffering dogs and so is more of the general public because they are only concentrating on chaining as thats what they've been told about.

All my rescue that I spoke of were on chains for years 24/7. They don't have aggression problems. Historically APBTs were almost always kept chained, their entire lives, they might be off to fight or breed but most of the time they were chained. Yet still known as the friendliest dog around and the best family dog. I'm not saying these things so people think chaining up 24/7 is ok! I'm saying because they should still get a chance. I don't want it to come down to dogs being put to sleep because of a chain. Not given a chance to be temperament tested just like dogs that are supposedly trained to fight (even without evidence) and are PTS because they are "too risky" or "dangerous". Just like dogs from hoarders who don't get a chance, they must all be bad just because some will fail. I hope you see what I'm trying to say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLongestJourney... View Post
Like most things in life there are degrees - there are a lot of people who chain their dogs and then completely ignore them and that is what it sounds like the OP described. (Or isolate them in some other manner as you described, but that is not how these dogs are being contained so I thought it irrelevent to the post.). I think chaining is more potentially dangerous because it is easier for a child/other animal, etc to come in contact with a dog that is aggressive than might otherwise be with other forms of containment. Also, there does seem to be a correlation between chaining a dog 24/7 (or otherwise confining) and lack of socialization, training, etc. Someone who keeps their dog chained 24/7 is more likely to be someone who neglects their dog and does not socialize or train it. So for a dog that does become aggressive due to lack of socialization, training (which is highly correlated with chaining/confining 24/7) to be chained in a yard or other outside area is putting the dog is a position where children/animals, can easily cross it's path and invoke the dogs territorial protective instinct. All ingredients for a tragedy. I have seen pits or pit mixes that are highly territorial - they do exist. A woman in my neighborhood has to keep her pit away from other dogs while he is on his leash becomes he becomes protective of the territory around his leash; this dog is otherwise fine in the dog park. It only takes one territorial pit bull confined 24/7 and neglected who then becomes aggressive as a result of lack of socialization/training to harm a child that crosses it's path to add to the media hype regarding pit bulls and no pit bull owner needs that. Not to mention the tragedy of a child/person/animal being hurt by the dog.

I do not think that chaining automatically equates to aggression, however, I do think it is a risk factor. It is prudent to avoid risk factors where possible. Not all people who smoke get lung cancer, however, knowing the risks I elect not to smoke because I choose not to increase my chances of getting lung cancer. These dogs are friendly now, but left in the condition they are in several years this MIGHT cease to be the case. Is it 100% gauranteed? Of course not...they may very well still be sweet and affectionate. But why risk it?

I will agree to disagree on this point. It sounds like you care for your dogs very much which is something these dogs, by what is described, don't have the benefit of.
I see what you are saying about avoiding risk factors, that makes a lot of sense. That is a good way of putting that, I'll remember that for when I need it.

I guess to some people its worth the risk because they have been owning/breeding for 30yrs and haven't had an aggression problem. So maybe they are not seeing a risk? I'm not sure, I don't know the mind of these people thoroughly. Just speculating.

I know territorial APBTs exist, they shouldn't but they do. There are all kinds of dogs with temperament defects out there. I've seen APBTs with fear aggression being labeled as being "protective".

I see that valid as a child could come in a chain spot of an aggressive dog and be bit. Isn't it easier to get away though? Where the dog can't reach you. Rather then try to get out of a kennel or run out of a fence with the dog chasing you.

Containment all the way around is important. If you have a dog and live in an urban or suburban environment I think you should have a fence around your yard. People should really consider putting up a fence before getting a dog. I know people who let their dogs out to potty that don't have a fence and the dogs run off, some have been killed by cars.
Even if you chain or tie out your dog, the fence keeps other animals/people out of your yard in the 1st place and then away from your dog too. Fences make barriers. It doesn't matter how friendly the dog is, it just seems smart to have a fence.

There have been several time a child enters an unlocked gate or climbs in a kennel and is mauled too. I think people should put tops on their kennels. I think that people shouldn't keep dangerous dogs and parents should watch their kids too. We don't live in a perfect world I know. Dangerous dogs are too much of a liability IMO. I knew some folks who had several dogs, a few pits, a JRT and a Rottweiler, all the dogs but the Rottweiler were indoor/outdoor dogs. The Rottweiler lived in her kennel day after day. Until she jumped the kennel and attacked a plumber who was working the neighbors house. This dog had shown much aggression without provocation before, yet nothing was done. The kennel should have had a top on it as well. This is way off topic but I feel that people shouldn't own a dog that is a danger to other people and kids. What gives them the right to own something that can do damage can't control? Its like a weapon that can go off on its own.

When I lived in town I had kids in my yard. They were in my fenced yard messing with my dogs who were in kennels or tied out at the time. One was hitting my male in the head when I caught them. I had locked the gates for years to the fence, but that doesn't keep bored kids out. If a dog would have bit anyone of them mom would have been crying for a breed ban or something. Who knows. She never paid 10 minutes time to them a day, one was hit by a car already which she threw a fit about. Anyone of them could have been kidnapped without super vision all day everyday, it wouldn't take a predator long to notice that. Why did she have kids? Just like people who ignore their dogs, why do they have them? I just can't relate to people sometimes.

We can agree to disagree, but I think we really agree a lot more then we disagree? I agree with most of what I'm reading from you, I'm just stressing different parts of the same issue. I in no way think the dog the OP is dealing with should live the rest of his life on a chain 25/7!!! I don't think he will become an aggressive killer, but its still not fair to the dog at all. APBTs especially thrive on human attention! They need this everyday, he is showing he wants a real loving home. He needs a different home, even if the OP can't keep him maybe someone else can take him????
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Old 10-21-2007, 04:14 PM
 
Location: New York, NY
74 posts, read 269,905 times
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Originally Posted by APBT_Samara View Post
I think we really agree a lot more then we disagree
Agreed .
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