Why does every dog I adopt have aggression issues? (vets, black, skin)

[movedtothecoast]

Hopes, I often agree with your postings but on this we will just have to
agree to disagree.

If the right trainer isn't found there is huge
chance that the dog will be worse for the wear, I frankly think
that the foster home analogy could go wither way, have you never heard
of children being messed up in foster homes?

we are on a computer forum and no matter how much you would
like to make this miracle of enlightenment happen thru the screen
I get the sense from OP that she does not really
want to take this project on.
Bottom line is that is up to OP to
know her own limitations.
To say that the dog might get beat if
returned to the rescue is a bit dramatic, no?

Lastly , not everybody should own a dog, I
have always wondered why so many people have them when
they obviously have no clue nor will they
ever get a clue [this is not aimed at OP] .

Somewhere it became overly popular , dog breeders
saw money and people saw a cute acessory not
knowing what a commitment owning a dog is.
we now have over breeding , many homeles pets etc. baffling.

[Hopes]

Originally Posted by movedtothecoast

If the right trainer isn't found there is huge
chance that the dog will be worse for the wear,

K9coach went to the trouble to try to find ones that might be good in her area. You had an oversimplified interpretation of my saying she can learn from this dog. If I didn't feel the OP had a chance with this dog if she applied herself with proper research and professional guidance, I wouldn't suggest she try.

Originally Posted by movedtothecoast

I frankly think
that the foster home analogy could go wither way, have you never heard
of children being messed up in foster homes?

It wasn't an analogy. It was reality. If she gives up the dog to the rescue, the dog will be put in a foster home.

Originally Posted by movedtothecoast

we are on a computer forum and no matter how much you would
like to make this miracle of enlightenment happen thru the screen
I get the sense from OP that she does not really
want to take this project on.

The only esteemed enlightenment I have through the screen is that the OP is part of the problem, and she needs to learn how to properly train and lead dogs. Her problem isn't likely to end with getting rid of this dog if she doesn't change the way she interacts with her dogs. She hasn't shared anything that doesn't occasionally come up in dog ownership throughout a dog's life with an owner. There is no absolute proof that this is true aggression either.

Originally Posted by movedtothecoast

Bottom line is that is up to OP to
know her own limitations....

No sh*t. If I have esteemed power to persuade her through the screen to persuade her otherwise, she shouldn't be on the internet. Nobody should be on the internet if they can be so easily persuaded. Anyone who turns to the internet, or anywhere else in the real world for advice, should have the ability to weigh the advice and make their own decisions. If the OP wants to get rid of this dog, that's fine with me, but I am trying to impress upon her that she very well could have the same problem. If she understands that, she might take the time to learn about dog training and start out with a professional trainer for whatever dog she ends up owning.

Originally Posted by movedtothecoast

To say that the dog might get beat if
returned to the rescue is a bit dramatic, no?

Not at all. A difficult dog has a greater chance of being mistreated by its owners. Many people don't know how to be owners. I didn't say that to sway her. I pointed out it's a possibility in response to your saying it will do the dog harm to extend the stay with her. Your magic crystal ball isn't any more powerful than mine.

Originally Posted by movedtothecoast

Lastly , not everybody should own a dog, I
have always wondered why so many people have them when
they obviously have no clue nor will they
ever get a clue [this is not aimed at OP] .

If I believed the OP shouldn't own a dog, I would be saying that directly to her, not bracket that it's not aimed at her. To so easily encourage her to give up this dog without trying is giving her the illusion that it's the dogs she has owned and not her. That illusion could hinder her from trying to learn what she needs to learn.

She seems determined to own another dog. As a result, I think it's important for her to understand that it's not likely the breed or the personality of the dogs she has owned. She is the common denominator with three dogs. That's every dog she has owned, not 3 out of 5 but 3 out of 3.

That sounds like someone who shouldn't have a dog, but if she recognizes she has a risk of this with ANY dog, and that it's important for her to learn how to properly train and lead dogs, she most certainly can be a person who can own a dog.

The OP came here looking for information. Even though we disagree, we're both giving her the best that we have.

[mic111]

I have some limited experience as a foster and placing dogs. We do make mistakes. People often don't fess up to the true nature of who they are and what type of dog they want on the applications in order to get the dog they want. Also something we may be doing as very experienced dog owners may not be replicated by the new owner. I have adopted out non-jumping, totally relaxed on leash, calm, well behaved dogs that new owners tell me from day one are jumping, pulling, overactive dogs. I feel this is due to feeding inferior food with chemicals and sugar in them, not taking charge when on leash (I don't allow the dogs to meet dogs or people first, they have to wait until I grant the other person or dog access to them before greeting and I think this makes them feel more secure, training behaviors like high fives or shake where the dog is rewarded with a treat for putting their paws on people - smart dogs offer up rewarded behaviors unbidden in order to earn a treat so people take my well trained fosters and train in undesirable behaviors that they then complain about).

However, you got the dog from a good rescue and they are willing to take him back. We rescue people are bleeding hearts and the dog will be in good hands if you give him back. He will go to a more suitable home. Perhaps with a recluse who wants a protective dog. There are people out there who want dogs that don't like other people and are willing to manage that behavior. The fact is if a dog bites you can train and socialize all you want but you still need to be aware of the behavior and not allow the dog to be in a situation where he or others are in danger. As a result management is key. A crate or leash or muzzle when guests are over. Isolation in a bedroom etc. Because even if you train the heck out of the dog you can't train the guests and no amount of telling them not to put their face into the dogs face will ever work.

Let the rescue have the chance of getting him an appropriate home and the dog have the chance of being with someone who finds him their 'heart' dog. Do it now. Don't wait a few years when it will be harder on the dog to be separated from you.

You need to be absolutely clear in any application that you want a marshmallow dog with no aggression, no dominance, no challenging people or other dogs. There are dogs out there like that. They need people with soft personalities as they don't do well with owners that want to order them around or be in charge. It scares them. Your soft personality dog is there you just have to find it. But be aware this dog may not be able to go to dog parks or play with alot of other dogs because they will likely be bullied or beaten up. You will have to choose the playmates carefully so your dog's good nature isn't taken advantage of.

Be sure to also say what behaviors you are willing to work with such as house training, jumping, puppy mouthing etc. If none are OK then go for an older happy go lucky dog. There is a good fit for you! Some dog needs your personality and you will love him/her to bits. Don't be offended if your application is rejected a few times for dogs your interested in. The rescues know their dogs and have a reason for thinking it isn't a good fit. Just say to let you know if they get one in that fits.

Edit:
I should add that I agree with so many of the points Hopes and K9coach have made. A couple in particular.

You do not want a smart dog. A smart dog is the hardest to have in a residential setting. They need to be out working, with their brains engaged all day just like smart people. Most people want a dog that is happy with a couple of walks a week, watching TV with the owner, maybe one or two outings a week and greeting them at the door. What you want is a happy-go-lucky dog so they don't get too crazy with the limited life a dog leads as a house (or even worse outdoor) dog. A smart dog needs to be in dog sports like agility or working on a ranch and any smart dog that you adopt needs to have that smarts respected by making sure that they have mental engagement away from the house (so they don't go stir crazy) every single day.

A greyhound may be a good fit for you if you want a bigger dog. I really like this web site for honest information on the different breeds. I find the breeds do matter. I prefer mixed breeds because I think the purebreds often get too far in one direction with the inbreeding. I have seen strong breed types in all my mixed breeds and you do have to understand what behaviors have been bred in that you may be working against vs. ones that may come up because of lack of training.

http://www.yourpurebredpuppy.com/dogbreeds/

[oregonwoodsmoke]

Originally Posted by Hopes

.............She needs to learn how to properly respond when it does. Giving this dog a try is the best way for her to learn for any future dog........

I disagree. OP apparently does not know how to respond and learning on a dangerous dog is not the best option for her. When you are learning how to train dogs, you start with an easy dog and work your way up.

This dog belongs with someone who already knows how to respond and who will give the correct response without even thinking. This is not a beginners dog.

This dog was growling and snapping at the vet and the vet tech. I suppose they don't know the proper way to handle a vicious dog?

I've trained a lot of dogs and if I had this one, my proper response would be to have the dog put to sleep before she severely injures someone. Not all dogs are good dogs. Dogs with flawed temperaments can be dangerous and if it is a genetic temperament flaw, it can be impossible to fix and difficult to manage.

However, I would dearly love to see Hopes take possession of this dog, turn her into a sweet kitty cat (honestly, the filters on this site!!!), and then tell us all "I told you so". That would truly make me happy.

[planedition]

So wait a minute. From everything I am reading here:

1. I should not want a smart dog, I should want a dumb, "marshmallow" dog, happy go lucky? So are you guys saying that intelligence and aggression go hand in hand? Is there no way to have a non-aggressive dog that is also smart?

By the way I am not a marshmallow person. I have a strong personality (I'm a lawyer) and not really interested in a softie dog. If I wanted that I would be adopting a golden retriever.

2. And also any dog who growls or snaps should be put to sleep?

3. And this dog is not a "beginners" dog? Well, I don't consider myself a beginner. I have had dogs all my life!

Now I am really really confused.

Well, I took the dog to his first class and he was cool and fine until the trainer came really close to me to demonstrate a command. Then he growled. The trainer didn't think anything of this. I asked the trainer whether he saw any red flags about this dog or thought he was incapable of being rehabilitated. He said no, but then again, I guess it's in the best interest of the trainer to keep me going to class with this dog and keep paying him. He is meeting with me this week for a private home session. Since it's at my home, hopefully the dog will not try to bite or growl or attack. Fingers crossed.

Today I had people over the house and the dog growled at them a couple times and then when I corrected him he stopped and then he was fine with the house guests after that. So that was really encouraging.

I appreciate everyone's candid feedback here, and I want you to tell it like it is. But I just want to reiterate that it is NOT EASY, and in fact EXTREMELY DIFFICULT, for your average dog owner (me) to be calm assertive with a dog that has a history of exhibiting aggressive behavior. How can you NOT panic when a stranger comes near the dog when there is that history? Who wants to get sued over a dog bite? I don't know anyone who does.

[Dashdog]

I am thinking your dogs are picking up on you being nervous and I know it is difficult but if you could try to be calm and confident it should help as they read your emotions so well and react to them. I had a reactive dog with fear aggression and adopted a second dog when she was 2 only to drive away from the humane society and have their vet come running out to ask me if they had warned me about his aggression. I drove away thinking great just what I need a 2nd dog with issues The first was a border collie X Cattle dog and the 2nd a border collie X springer spaniel. I will say herding dosg do lean towards being more reactive then some of the other breeds and their being so smart can also back fire as they may be learning things you do not want them too or if they are stubborn watch out as smart and stubborn can be very difficult to work with. Now I look back on those two and feel that God made sure I ened up with them both for a reason and I do not regret having either one as I learned so much that I would not have learned with what people call a marshmallow dog.

The second dog was so darn food motivaed that all his aggression issues were solved within weeks and he spent the rest of his life as a major love bug and loved other people because he just never knew they might have treats ( and one of his big issues had been with anyone grooming him or examining him) I had people examine him and feed treats to him as they did and he soon saw that hey this is actually a good thing to have some one feel me over or brush me or what ever. After a short time I never worried that he might bite someone as he did a complete turn around.People loved him and he loved them.


The other dog I put many many hours of work into her for her whole life as much of her behavior seemed to be genetic so we were never going to get rid of it 100% but by having control of her and being able to read her body language I was able to relax. Her aggression was more towards dogs and vets as she really tended to love people as long as they were not about to do something that would hurt her. But she was anxious about people she did not know coming into my house so if I had workers I gated her then made them come over to the gate and give her a few treats and pet her then she was fine and if they were fine with it I let her out and she would ask for a little love from them then leave them alone. Once you were her friend she would always greet you like you were just the best thing around, But she also only gave people one chance and if they blew it she never forgot that .

Her biggest issues were other dogs but rather then keep her home she lived most of her life out and about, did agility, some flyball, walked in costumes in the big Dog parade every year with over 1000 other dogs went to festivales and many dog events with me and because I was confident she was too. If she did react I did not flip out.She had a fantastic down from a distance and if I needed too I could drop her to a down without being right by her. Handy when doing agility as at club practice some times other dogs in the park would wander onto the course and she saw that as a huge violation and would race towards them so stopping her by asking for a down was a great thing to be able to do. ( she was all about structure and rules and if others did not follow the rules she saw it as her responsibility to set them straight) I think when you own a dog with issues learning to read body language, the down command, a reliable recall , a good watch me or even a touch where you get them to focus on your hand and touch it and develeoping an inhibited bite will keep the dog out of trouble. I make sure I teach all my dogs to inhibit their bite as to me that is a very important thing for a dog to know.

Being part border collie I would make sure people are not making direct eye contact with her as they seem to see that as a BIG challenge and that might be why she is growling at people. Just have them divert their eyes or even turn ther heads away a bit and see if she calms down.so no direct eye contact!

My sister had a very loveable friendly collie for 16 yrs and several years after he died she finally got a new dog and it turned out she had some big aggression issues towards people and dogs. My sister wanted to give her up but when I went to visit I really liked the dog and talked her into keeping her .The dog behaved pretty well for me but my sister would get so nervous so I told her she needed to be calm and suggested they do agility so she and the dog would learn to work together as a team and it would build confidence for both. ( they compete now an do very well) I had her have her neighbors toss the dog treats so she started to see people she did not know as good things and now a few years later she is much better about meeting people and when I visit ( I am in So CA and they are in Oregon so it is not like I see the dog a lot) the dog goes nuts and just wants me to cuddle and love on her not at all the evil dog my sister thought she was. So if you are willing to put work into the dog and have her be around others instead of keeping her locked away so she learns I think things can improve. The herding dogs love to learn and be given things to do and mental stimulation is a huge way to get rid of some of the energy they come with as it is near impossible to do it with just physical exercise and the saying a tired dog is a good dog holds true If you take the dog walking keep her busy at the same time ask for lots of sits and downs and even tricks if it knows any as you walk. Get her to learn to focus on you by changing directions often as you walk. Training does not have to be as time intense as many think it does if you incorporate it into walks and play time. That way it becomes fun and I think dogs learn better when it is fun.

A really good book to read is " For The Love of a Dog" by Patricia Mcconnell as it is about understanding emotion in you an your dog . Good luck

[Dashdog]

To everyone that keeps mentioning greyhounds while I agree they can be such gentle loveable dogs they can be aggressive towards other dogs. The retired racers were trained using their prey drive and that means when they run and play with other dogs things can get aggressive as they bite and nip. A friend that is involved in greyhound rescue says they should always wear basket muzzle when playing in groups of dogs, be it other greyhounds or dogs of other mixes. Running around can stir up that prey drive in any dog but when prey drive was used as training it is a common issue and greyhounds have killed small dogs due to it as they will see them as prey.

So even the lovable 50mph couch potatoes can have issues
.

[k9coach]

Originally Posted by planedition

Well, I took the dog to his first class and he was cool and fine until the trainer came really close to me to demonstrate a command. Then he growled. The trainer didn't think anything of this. I asked the trainer whether he saw any red flags about this dog or thought he was incapable of being rehabilitated. He said no, but then again, I guess it's in the best interest of the trainer to keep me going to class with this dog and keep paying him. He is meeting with me this week for a private home session. Since it's at my home, hopefully the dog will not try to bite or growl or attack. Fingers crossed.

Today I had people over the house and the dog growled at them a couple times and then when I corrected him he stopped and then he was fine with the house guests after that. So that was really encouraging.

Did the trainer tell you to "correct" the dog for growling? If so that is a major red flag. What is the "correction" you are using?

Were food rewards used in this training class? Were dogs physically manipulated into positions such as sit or down or were they lured into these positions with a treat? Were prong collars or choke chains permitted in class? Were leash pops used? I'm concerned.

[k9coach]

Originally Posted by planedition

I appreciate everyone's candid feedback here, and I want you to tell it like it is. But I just want to reiterate that it is NOT EASY, and in fact EXTREMELY DIFFICULT, for your average dog owner (me) to be calm assertive with a dog that has a history of exhibiting aggressive behavior. How can you NOT panic when a stranger comes near the dog when there is that history? Who wants to get sued over a dog bite? I don't know anyone who does.

You're scaring me.. where did you hear the term "calm assertive"...? That is a Cesar Milan term and I'm starting to understand why all your dogs have been "aggressive".

[mic111]

Originally Posted by planedition

So wait a minute. From everything I am reading here:

1. I should not want a smart dog, I should want a dumb, "marshmallow" dog, happy go lucky? So are you guys saying that intelligence and aggression go hand in hand? Is there no way to have a non-aggressive dog that is also smart?
No one has said intelligence and aggression are in any way related. However a dog being assertive, telling us how they feel about something, and communicating with us in their language is almost always mislabeled as aggression. When your dog growls at someone new in the house he is not being aggressive. He is saying to the other person. I don't know who you are or if I like you. Stay away and don't mess with me. He is a smart dog as who knows what type of people you have let in. He doesn't know you all that well either.
By the way I am not a marshmallow person. I have a strong personality (I'm a lawyer) and not really interested in a softie dog. If I wanted that I would be adopting a golden retriever.

2. And also any dog who growls or snaps should be put to sleep?
I didn't see that said by anyone. Many of us have trained and worked with reactive dogs.
3. And this dog is not a "beginners" dog? Well, I don't consider myself a beginner. I have had dogs all my life!
Yes but you picked a dog with personality traits you don't care for. You asked for help. People tried to tell you what you were choosing isn't compatible with what you want.
Now I am really really confused.

Well, I took the dog to his first class and he was cool and fine until the trainer came really close to me to demonstrate a command. Then he growled. The trainer didn't think anything of this. I asked the trainer whether he saw any red flags about this dog or thought he was incapable of being rehabilitated. He said no, but then again, I guess it's in the best interest of the trainer to keep me going to class with this dog and keep paying him. He is meeting with me this week for a private home session. Since it's at my home, hopefully the dog will not try to bite or growl or attack. Fingers crossed.
Your issue isn't going to be with the dog and the trainer. It is going to be with the dog and the people you have over to the house who don't know how to interact with the dog. You can train the dog but not the people.
Today I had people over the house and the dog growled at them a couple times and then when I corrected him he stopped and then he was fine with the house guests after that. So that was really encouraging.

I appreciate everyone's candid feedback here, and I want you to tell it like it is. But I just want to reiterate that it is NOT EASY, and in fact EXTREMELY DIFFICULT, for your average dog owner (me) to be calm assertive with a dog that has a history of exhibiting aggressive behavior. How can you NOT panic when a stranger comes near the dog when there is that history? Who wants to get sued over a dog bite? I don't know anyone who does.

Management is absolutely key. You cannot allow your dog to be in a position to hurt people or to end up being put to sleep because you put him in a situation he couldn't handle. Letting him roam free in a party or with people over is not acceptable at this stage. You know he is reactive. You must prevent his interaction with people until you have more confidence in his reaction.