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Old 05-17-2013, 06:36 PM
 
Location: under the beautiful Carolina blue
22,615 posts, read 36,507,081 times
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Hi all,

We adopted a puppy about 6 weeks ago, he is now about 14 weeks. He's a black lab mix.

He's great about 95% of the time. Unfortunately he has always liked to jump on my DD the most (she's 9, and very good with him - plays with him the most, was comfortable with him right off the bat, takes care of him and she's not a typical shrieky kind of girl). Anyway, he's getting bigger - and he's also getting more aggressive with her.

Usually this was happening when they are out back playing - they are running all over the place and eventually he starts chasing/jumping/snapping. Understandable for a puppy.

Now it's happened a couple of times that he's just going after her. He seemed a bit out of sorts today to begin with for some reason...but tonight he was jumping on her and I mean JUMPING up in the air and trying to land on her, snapping at her and every time I tried to get ahold of him he would run around to her other side where I couldn't reach her. She still has no fear of this animal, but she's getting frustrated. Tonight we got him away from her and put her out on the porch (yes, her, not him!) and he was jumping up at the glass trying to get to her. It was pretty crazy. He did get a bite in. She's got several scratches from other altercations.

We just started puppy classes yesterday and the trainer said to make sure he gets played with (especially "tug") so he doesn't get bored, I played with him plenty today and still this. He does tend to get crazy in the evening but I can't have this where he's practically going into attack mode unprovoked. If she was a pain in the neck who teased him, pulled his tail and was a pest in general I would get it, but she's so not like that.

I have almost 13 year old twin boys and he's not like this with them at all.

Any tips?
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Old 05-17-2013, 07:33 PM
 
3,339 posts, read 9,296,874 times
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Puppy classes are a very good start, and 14 weeks is still very very young, so you will see his behavior evolving as he gets older and and goes through training. Others will give youmore detailed advice, but here is my two cents.

Puppies get crazy. I know too well because we have a 16 week old pup right now. He can go nuts in the evenings, especially if he doesn't get enough activity during the day. But that isn't enough, IMO. Involving your daughter in his training will help. The puppy needs to see her more as a "benevolent leader" than just a playmate. It sounds like he is playing with her like puppies play with other puppies -- and your daughter is not a puppy. So there are boundaries he needs to learn, and if your pup can learn that he will be rewarded (with play, treats or whatever else he likes) for complying with her commands, walking on leash with her, etc., he will be less likely to go crazy on her.

Our little guy acts differently with me than he does with my husband. My husband is "good cop": plays with the puppy, give him treats, and lets him get away with things I won't tolerate. that makes me the bad cop. (I'm sure you know all about this having three children!!) Your puppy needs to learn a training concept called "NILIF" -- Nothing In Life Is Free. He has to learn to earn everything: a trip outside, a treat, a meal, a toy. It can be as simple as making him sit and wait for several seconds for the go-ahead to have his meal. Our puppy respects me because i absolutely do not let him go outside until he is sitting. He must sit as I open the door, and then he can't go through that door until I say OK. If he gets it wrong, we do it until he gets it right.

My husband gets tired of trying and just takes him outside. So who does the pup respect more? The bad cop. But the puppy also feels closer to a leader he respects. We play a lot, we have a great time -- but in the end, I am She Who Must Be Obeyed. In your home, that is you, but your daughter can evolve into a similar position.
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Old 05-17-2013, 07:52 PM
 
Location: SE Michigan
6,191 posts, read 18,084,412 times
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What Tina said.

Also, this is very normal exuberant puppy behaviour!

I think you need to teach your daughter to pretend to "be a tree" every time your pup starts this.
Do not speak, do not look at the puppy, look away, freeze in place, utterly zero feedback or interaction with him the minute he starts getting wild. Assuming you or another adult is there, snap on a leash and separate them, but be CALM, no emotion at all. It might take five full minutes of pretending to be a tree, over and over again for weeks.

I'm willing to bet he is just a drivey energetic puppy and this is complete bratty play behaviour and by instantly stopping every interaction, calmly, when he does this, he's getting no feedback or fun reactions. Note that negative reactions are also stimulating/stressing, so being as calm and neutral as you can be is very important.

It may take a while (google extinction burst) and you all have to be very consistent. He needs to be taught that this simply is not acceptable behaviour.

And of course lots and lots of love and praise and positive reinforcement whenever he is doing the correct thing and being good.

Your daughter sounds sensible enough to implement NILIF herself. Self-control is not a normal dog trait but is important for dogs to learn if they're to coexist nicely with humans. Especially exuberant, larger dogs.

I wonder how much canine guidance he has had? From litter mates, mom or a bossy, firm, older dog? That is a very important thing that puppies learn from littermates and their elders: manners, bite inhibition, respect. Right now your pup seems to be a bit lacking but he's a baby and he'll learn if you establish consistent rules! You said that you started classes just yesterday and you're not seeing results...oy! It will takes weeks. Months, probably. He hasn't even started teething yet. You don't get results in a day with babies; it takes persistent and continuous guidance and training and consistency.

Also remember...we learn nothing from the mellow, easy dogs. We learn only from the challenging ones.
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Old 05-17-2013, 11:09 PM
 
3,111 posts, read 4,997,749 times
Reputation: 7375
All of the above. Your daughter should stop playing with him like she is a puppy. She needs to play directed games like fetch. Personally I don't play tug as I don't enjoy my dog learning to fight with me for something even if it is in fun. She can set up some jumps (two buckets and a broom) will give her some to have the dog go over. She can get a box and open both ends and that can be a tunnel for her to send him through. She can teach him sit stay and then hide treats all over the yard or house for him to find. She can teach him to catch a frisbee. There are lots of things she can do with him that don't have him jumping on her. If he does, freezing like a tree is good and/or leaving the room is good. She should be the one in class working with him if possible so that she learns how to train a dog.

You should try to find some dogs for your dog to play with. They will get all crazy together and the other dogs will give your dog a correction if he gets too crazy and doesn't respect their signals about when they have had enough. He will also get to work off tons of energy that way. Make sure you choose dog savvy dogs and other owners. Many owners don't realize how rough dogs play together and try to stop it when the dogs are having fun. Also if he was taken away from his litter too early he didn't get the training from the adults and other puppies on what is acceptable behavior. If so some of the adult or better mannered dogs he meets will likely be taking him down a peg and as long as he doesn't get hurt (no blood spilled) it is perfectly appropriate for them to do this although it can kind of be scary for you to watch.

Another thing to do is check your food and treats for grains and sugar. I find feeding grain free food and treats that don't contain any sugar gives me much less hyper foster dogs. You'd be surprised how many dog treats have some form of sugar in them.
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Old 05-18-2013, 12:29 AM
 
Location: Santa Barbara CA
5,088 posts, read 12,534,012 times
Reputation: 10157
When your daughter is playing with the puppy is she laughing and making high pitched noises?Often that will send puppies and dogs into a frenzy. When Jazz was a puppy and we would go visit my parents my 3 young nephews are always there as my parents watched them as their parents worked. The boys loved my puppy and she in turn loved them. The 7 and 8 year old were very good with her and she was pretty much in control when she played with them. The 4 yr old...OMG! He would run and make high pitched screeching noises and that would cause her to shift into a frenzy state and she would chase him and bark at him and grab him. I was very lucky as she seemed to have a very inhibited bite within a few weeks of my getting her because I did play with her in ways that did teach that.

When she would grab the 4 yr old often it was by his clothing and then she would drag him across the room and he would be laughing or screaming all high pitched which just fed her frenzy. It was a self rewarding type thing going on. My parents also had a pool and he would start getting out of the pool and she would wander over so he would shriek and jump back in the pool and this only took a few times for her to see it as some crazy but very fun game and soon the kid could not get out of the pool as when he tried she would race over barking at him like crazy and what would he do? He would shriek and jump back in the pool. She saw that as a reward as she was controlling him and being a herder she LOVED control. He thought it was so funny until he actually did want to get out and she would not let him. It was his behavior that drove her and I would have to get her and put her in her crate for a while so she would calm down or it would get too crazy. As they aged Jazz and the 4 yr old both calmed down and she so loved that boy right up to the last time I took her down there. She was 14.5 then and he was 18

So your daughter may be doing something that is making the puppy act that way and high pitched noises and quick movements (both common in kids) can do it!


You do have a lot of great suggestions from everyone.
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Old 05-18-2013, 06:36 AM
 
Location: under the beautiful Carolina blue
22,615 posts, read 36,507,081 times
Reputation: 19804
Great post, and thanks so much. He is young, and evening is his crazy time. I have suspected that, since she is the littlest (although not little for a 9 year old!) he sees her as his "littermate" to a certain extent. She also talks to him in a high pitched voice like you'd use with a baby.
He's so mellow other than that. Even if someone opens the door, he might mosey on out to the front porch, but that's it. He'll just sit there. Already sits while I get his food. Got loose from my backyard the other day and went and sat on the front lawn. A guy walking by with his dogs couldn't believe it - said "I can't believe that puppy stopped without a shock collar". Hoping based on his personality it's easy to train this out of him.



Quote:
Originally Posted by TinaMcG View Post
Puppy classes are a very good start, and 14 weeks is still very very young, so you will see his behavior evolving as he gets older and and goes through training. Others will give youmore detailed advice, but here is my two cents.

Puppies get crazy. I know too well because we have a 16 week old pup right now. He can go nuts in the evenings, especially if he doesn't get enough activity during the day. But that isn't enough, IMO. Involving your daughter in his training will help. The puppy needs to see her more as a "benevolent leader" than just a playmate. It sounds like he is playing with her like puppies play with other puppies -- and your daughter is not a puppy. So there are boundaries he needs to learn, and if your pup can learn that he will be rewarded (with play, treats or whatever else he likes) for complying with her commands, walking on leash with her, etc., he will be less likely to go crazy on her.

Our little guy acts differently with me than he does with my husband. My husband is "good cop": plays with the puppy, give him treats, and lets him get away with things I won't tolerate. that makes me the bad cop. (I'm sure you know all about this having three children!!) Your puppy needs to learn a training concept called "NILIF" -- Nothing In Life Is Free. He has to learn to earn everything: a trip outside, a treat, a meal, a toy. It can be as simple as making him sit and wait for several seconds for the go-ahead to have his meal. Our puppy respects me because i absolutely do not let him go outside until he is sitting. He must sit as I open the door, and then he can't go through that door until I say OK. If he gets it wrong, we do it until he gets it right.

My husband gets tired of trying and just takes him outside. So who does the pup respect more? The bad cop. But the puppy also feels closer to a leader he respects. We play a lot, we have a great time -- but in the end, I am She Who Must Be Obeyed. In your home, that is you, but your daughter can evolve into a similar position.
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Old 05-18-2013, 06:40 AM
 
Location: under the beautiful Carolina blue
22,615 posts, read 36,507,081 times
Reputation: 19804
Ha - just read your last sentence, see my response above about how mellow he is. I think I'm spoiled.

My daughter has been standing still while he does this which I find unbelievable in a kid her age - but I've been getting upset and I need to stop that.

I think he was taken from his mom pretty young - he went to the SPCA at 4 weeks and was listed as a "transfer". I don't know where he came from before that. There was one other puppy in his "tub" that looked just like him that got adopted the same day. THe other two puppies with them were different breeds and completely rambunctious. He'd been there about 4 weeks when we got him but I think he had just gone up for adoption that day or the day before.


Quote:
Originally Posted by chiroptera View Post
What Tina said.

Also, this is very normal exuberant puppy behaviour!

I think you need to teach your daughter to pretend to "be a tree" every time your pup starts this.
Do not speak, do not look at the puppy, look away, freeze in place, utterly zero feedback or interaction with him the minute he starts getting wild. Assuming you or another adult is there, snap on a leash and separate them, but be CALM, no emotion at all. It might take five full minutes of pretending to be a tree, over and over again for weeks.

I'm willing to bet he is just a drivey energetic puppy and this is complete bratty play behaviour and by instantly stopping every interaction, calmly, when he does this, he's getting no feedback or fun reactions. Note that negative reactions are also stimulating/stressing, so being as calm and neutral as you can be is very important.

It may take a while (google extinction burst) and you all have to be very consistent. He needs to be taught that this simply is not acceptable behaviour.

And of course lots and lots of love and praise and positive reinforcement whenever he is doing the correct thing and being good.

Your daughter sounds sensible enough to implement NILIF herself. Self-control is not a normal dog trait but is important for dogs to learn if they're to coexist nicely with humans. Especially exuberant, larger dogs.

I wonder how much canine guidance he has had? From litter mates, mom or a bossy, firm, older dog? That is a very important thing that puppies learn from littermates and their elders: manners, bite inhibition, respect. Right now your pup seems to be a bit lacking but he's a baby and he'll learn if you establish consistent rules! You said that you started classes just yesterday and you're not seeing results...oy! It will takes weeks. Months, probably. He hasn't even started teething yet. You don't get results in a day with babies; it takes persistent and continuous guidance and training and consistency.

Also remember...we learn nothing from the mellow, easy dogs. We learn only from the challenging ones.
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Old 05-18-2013, 06:48 AM
 
Location: under the beautiful Carolina blue
22,615 posts, read 36,507,081 times
Reputation: 19804
I'm going to take her to training with me when a night class opens up (she wants to come) - next week is a day class and then after that she can come. This place also has puppy parties for puppies to play together which I'm going to take him to last week. I live on the main road in my neighborhood so he sees and has met a LOT of dogs (so have I!) and he plays sometimes with the (11 year old choc lab) across the street who does correct him.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mic111 View Post
All of the above. Your daughter should stop playing with him like she is a puppy. She needs to play directed games like fetch. Personally I don't play tug as I don't enjoy my dog learning to fight with me for something even if it is in fun. She can set up some jumps (two buckets and a broom) will give her some to have the dog go over. She can get a box and open both ends and that can be a tunnel for her to send him through. She can teach him sit stay and then hide treats all over the yard or house for him to find. She can teach him to catch a frisbee. There are lots of things she can do with him that don't have him jumping on her. If he does, freezing like a tree is good and/or leaving the room is good. She should be the one in class working with him if possible so that she learns how to train a dog.

You should try to find some dogs for your dog to play with. They will get all crazy together and the other dogs will give your dog a correction if he gets too crazy and doesn't respect their signals about when they have had enough. He will also get to work off tons of energy that way. Make sure you choose dog savvy dogs and other owners. Many owners don't realize how rough dogs play together and try to stop it when the dogs are having fun. Also if he was taken away from his litter too early he didn't get the training from the adults and other puppies on what is acceptable behavior. If so some of the adult or better mannered dogs he meets will likely be taking him down a peg and as long as he doesn't get hurt (no blood spilled) it is perfectly appropriate for them to do this although it can kind of be scary for you to watch.

Another thing to do is check your food and treats for grains and sugar. I find feeding grain free food and treats that don't contain any sugar gives me much less hyper foster dogs. You'd be surprised how many dog treats have some form of sugar in them.
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Old 05-18-2013, 06:50 AM
 
Location: under the beautiful Carolina blue
22,615 posts, read 36,507,081 times
Reputation: 19804
Yes, mostly happens in the backyard. My daughter is one of those kids who doesn't walk if she can run or skip so she goes back there and just runs around....and that's when it usually happens. But last night was in the house, totally out of the blue. But like I said he just seemed to be having an "off day" yesterday for some reason. It's not even the full moon!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dashdog View Post
When your daughter is playing with the puppy is she laughing and making high pitched noises?Often that will send puppies and dogs into a frenzy. When Jazz was a puppy and we would go visit my parents my 3 young nephews are always there as my parents watched them as their parents worked. The boys loved my puppy and she in turn loved them. The 7 and 8 year old were very good with her and she was pretty much in control when she played with them. The 4 yr old...OMG! He would run and make high pitched screeching noises and that would cause her to shift into a frenzy state and she would chase him and bark at him and grab him. I was very lucky as she seemed to have a very inhibited bite within a few weeks of my getting her because I did play with her in ways that did teach that.

When she would grab the 4 yr old often it was by his clothing and then she would drag him across the room and he would be laughing or screaming all high pitched which just fed her frenzy. It was a self rewarding type thing going on. My parents also had a pool and he would start getting out of the pool and she would wander over so he would shriek and jump back in the pool and this only took a few times for her to see it as some crazy but very fun game and soon the kid could not get out of the pool as when he tried she would race over barking at him like crazy and what would he do? He would shriek and jump back in the pool. She saw that as a reward as she was controlling him and being a herder she LOVED control. He thought it was so funny until he actually did want to get out and she would not let him. It was his behavior that drove her and I would have to get her and put her in her crate for a while so she would calm down or it would get too crazy. As they aged Jazz and the 4 yr old both calmed down and she so loved that boy right up to the last time I took her down there. She was 14.5 then and he was 18

So your daughter may be doing something that is making the puppy act that way and high pitched noises and quick movements (both common in kids) can do it!


You do have a lot of great suggestions from everyone.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-18-2013, 07:49 AM
 
3,339 posts, read 9,296,874 times
Reputation: 4304
Quote:
Originally Posted by mic111 View Post
All of the above. Your daughter should stop playing with him like she is a puppy. She needs to play directed games like fetch. Personally I don't play tug as I don't enjoy my dog learning to fight with me for something even if it is in fun. She can set up some jumps (two buckets and a broom) will give her some to have the dog go over. She can get a box and open both ends and that can be a tunnel for her to send him through. She can teach him sit stay and then hide treats all over the yard or house for him to find. She can teach him to catch a frisbee. There are lots of things she can do with him that don't have him jumping on her. If he does, freezing like a tree is good and/or leaving the room is good. She should be the one in class working with him if possible so that she learns how to train a dog.

You should try to find some dogs for your dog to play with. They will get all crazy together and the other dogs will give your dog a correction if he gets too crazy and doesn't respect their signals about when they have had enough. He will also get to work off tons of energy that way. Make sure you choose dog savvy dogs and other owners. Many owners don't realize how rough dogs play together and try to stop it when the dogs are having fun. Also if he was taken away from his litter too early he didn't get the training from the adults and other puppies on what is acceptable behavior. If so some of the adult or better mannered dogs he meets will likely be taking him down a peg and as long as he doesn't get hurt (no blood spilled) it is perfectly appropriate for them to do this although it can kind of be scary for you to watch.

Another thing to do is check your food and treats for grains and sugar. I find feeding grain free food and treats that don't contain any sugar gives me much less hyper foster dogs. You'd be surprised how many dog treats have some form of sugar in them.

Tug is actually an excellent game for teaching a puppy self-control. We do this with our dogs: tug, tug, tug, tug, DROP IT, click (we use a clicker) and TREAT. Tug is good for teaching the DROP IT and LEAVE IT commands. It teaches the dog that the game is played on your terms, hot his terms. It's amazing how quickly they catch on to this game if they know there are rewards involved. Eventually, the new behavior becomes hardwired and they no longer expect treats in return for obeying your commands.
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