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I have an 11-year old Border Collie mix, Tim. Until 4 years ago he never had any signs of anxiety although he's always been a bit on the nervous side. The first time I saw any sign of anxiety was when our smoke detector started beeping due to the battery being low. After that he also showed fear of fire works and fire crackers. Last year he also started to show fear of thunderstorms but it was nothing major that I thought required any treatment. It was sufficiently controlled by me sitting with him on the floor.
This summer, though, his anxiety has been through the roof. It started a little over a month ago when he started to hide in the bathroom during a rain storm. A couple of days later we had a thunderstorm and poor Tim was a wreck, shaking, whining, pacing and just terrified. Even though the weather was fine the next day he still wasn't and kept hiding in the bathroom. After another thunderstorm a day or so later I took him to the vet thinking something may be seriously wrong with him. But after a bunch of blood work and stuff nothing was found and he was given Xanax for his anxiety. Since then we've been through so much Xanax that I've been expecting the pharmacy to flag my account any day now.
The past week, in which we've had several thunderstorms, has been particularly bad. Two nights in a row this past week he's kept me up most of the night by standing in a corner in the kitchen whining and scratching the wall. I hate to keep giving him Xanax but it's the only thing that calms him down enough to where we both can sleep. It scares me a bit to give it to him thought because the dose that worked a few weeks ago has now been quadrupled to get the same effect (he started on a very low dose).
His normal #1 hobby is to go for walks, the longer the better and we usually take an hour walk each afternoon. Lately though he doesn't want to go out at all. I've had to carry him down the stairs to get him to go out at all and he wants to turn around and go back pretty quickly. Today it's been better but if he hears any loud back outside he starts shaking right away and starts running towards home.
The oddest issue is that even though the thunderstorm only lasts for about an hour or so he won't calm down for another 24 hours. Even though if the skies are blue and everything is calm he will still whine, pace and walk around scratching at walls, cabinet doors or my legs. Is it normal for anxiety to continue so long after the scary event is over?
Lately this has become a very frequent issue and nothing other than meds and a scarf tied tightly around his chest helps. The whining and scratching walls just goes on and on even though the scary stuff is over.
Has anyone else experienced anything like this and/or have a suggestion for helping Tim relax and feel better? (I'm going to order a thundershirt.) Any suggestions or insight would be appreciated.
A family member has the same problem w/ one of her dogs (the one who she's had since a puppy, not a rescue). She's made the mistake of reassuring and reassuring the dog and while it works temporarily, the dog has extreme anxiety (apparently her other dog (same breed) is absolutely fine but it has to be upsetting to everyone). She also got her a thundershirt and while it works well, I think sometimes they get unexpected t-storms, I cant imagine how it is if no one's home. Will have to ask her how long the anxiety lasts. I think she also has meds for her from the vet but not sure how often she gives it. Most of this prob. doesnt help but apparently there's a lot of dogs w/ this and hopefully someone will have some good coping suggestions, it has to be awful.
Have heard of desensitizing tapes you can buy where you play a tape (thunder) at a low volume - if the dog is OK w/ it and basically ignores it, turn the volume up a bit etc - all this would have to be done gradually and over a period of time when the dog is relaxed - but it may work and may be worth trying.
Along these lines, w/ the 4th of July coming up, I hope ppl keep their pets inside (I know you will and obviously I will and so will my fam. member) - it makes me so sad when I read stories about dogs (especially) getting spooked by the fireworks and running away, getting hit by cars etc.
XANAX? Daily? I would wean him off with your vet's instructions and discussion. I would not be giving it. DO NOT CUT IT COLD TURKEY IT'S DANGEROUS.
We have found a myriad of side effects from meds on our message board for megaesophagus and they usually start manifesting with hiding or what looks like fear. In fact alot of dogs do that when they're getting a sickness but not for four years!
My clients' dogs get valium for fireworks. (I'm a dog walker/pet sitter) ONLY during the event. He could be having adverse reaction from the xanax. I can promise you that anxiety and at that severe level is not "normal" - since you asked.
I'd also go back to the vet have a a FULL PANEL THYROID test. Full panel not the smaller screening one. It feels to me that something is going on. That's alot more extreme than most of my clients' anxiety dogs triggered by weather and "predicting" storms which they are very good at doing. Just to rule out thyroid. The test isn't cheap.
And yes ^^ don't try "consoling" him it just reinforces that there's something to be afraid about.
Of course MANY DOGS fight going out if it's going to rain. I'm a dog walker in Florida where it rains alot. I just act "matter of fact" about it but your guy sounds tough.
My mothers Lab was very stressed and developed Irritable Bowel Syndrome (IBS not IBD, IBS)after she died and had immediate diarrhea from any loud noise even stapling a paper. IT took a good 8 months for her stress to go away (the bowel thing cleared up with Hills ID right away)...but this is different with no obvious cause.
I HOPE that it's YOUR anxiety about his anxiety so try being more "leader-ish"? Calm and insistent "ok, lets go" not "it's ok baby," in a high sad voice or whatever. And go for a walk right away if you can get him to. Do not acknowledge his fear or anxiety try and distract him or just calmly and patiently reject his fear and make him walk if possible. And I'd try and think of new things to do that he might think are fun once he gets into it.
Like maybe taking him to a place where he can herd animals and get back to his dog herding roots. Something to snap him out of it on a nice sunny day for once, then maybe you can keep doing that.
PETTING a dog with anxiety reinforces the fear. Do your very very best to force yourself to try the opposite approach. NOT harsh just "pragmatic" and normal like back in the day before it started.
Last edited by runswithscissors; 06-30-2013 at 06:50 AM..
I have an 11-year old Border Collie mix, Tim. Until 4 years ago he never had any signs of anxiety although he's always been a bit on the nervous side. The first time I saw any sign of anxiety was when our smoke detector started beeping due to the battery being low. After that he also showed fear of fire works and fire crackers. Last year he also started to show fear of thunderstorms but it was nothing major that I thought required any treatment. It was sufficiently controlled by me sitting with him on the floor.
This summer, though, his anxiety has been through the roof. It started a little over a month ago when he started to hide in the bathroom during a rain storm. A couple of days later we had a thunderstorm and poor Tim was a wreck, shaking, whining, pacing and just terrified. Even though the weather was fine the next day he still wasn't and kept hiding in the bathroom. After another thunderstorm a day or so later I took him to the vet thinking something may be seriously wrong with him. But after a bunch of blood work and stuff nothing was found and he was given Xanax for his anxiety. Since then we've been through so much Xanax that I've been expecting the pharmacy to flag my account any day now.
The past week, in which we've had several thunderstorms, has been particularly bad. Two nights in a row this past week he's kept me up most of the night by standing in a corner in the kitchen whining and scratching the wall. I hate to keep giving him Xanax but it's the only thing that calms him down enough to where we both can sleep. It scares me a bit to give it to him thought because the dose that worked a few weeks ago has now been quadrupled to get the same effect (he started on a very low dose).
His normal #1 hobby is to go for walks, the longer the better and we usually take an hour walk each afternoon. Lately though he doesn't want to go out at all. I've had to carry him down the stairs to get him to go out at all and he wants to turn around and go back pretty quickly. Today it's been better but if he hears any loud back outside he starts shaking right away and starts running towards home.
The oddest issue is that even though the thunderstorm only lasts for about an hour or so he won't calm down for another 24 hours. Even though if the skies are blue and everything is calm he will still whine, pace and walk around scratching at walls, cabinet doors or my legs. Is it normal for anxiety to continue so long after the scary event is over?
Lately this has become a very frequent issue and nothing other than meds and a scarf tied tightly around his chest helps. The whining and scratching walls just goes on and on even though the scary stuff is over.
Has anyone else experienced anything like this and/or have a suggestion for helping Tim relax and feel better? (I'm going to order a thundershirt.) Any suggestions or insight would be appreciated.
Wow. My God. You are living the life we had with our guy for 14 years. He also was a border collie mix, and his name was Jimmy -- Jim. The only difference in your story is that Jimmy's fears kicked off when he was less than a year old, and believe me, we tried everything to help him. Bach's Flower Essences, Comfort Zones, melatonin, all sorts of herbals, Chinese medicine, acupuncture, T-Touch, massage, behavioral therapy at a world renowned clinic in Wisconsin, t-shirts (this was before Thundershirts were marketed) -- and I'm probably leaving something out. We got him thoroughly examined, including complete blood panels, twice a year. There was never any physical reason for his phobias, and those fears escalated to the point where he was timid about going outside. Fourth of July was always the worst day of the year for us, and living next door to snotty kids who would shoot off fireworks all year long just to scare our dog wasn't helpful. I didn't miss those kids when we moved.
We also used Xanax. That was the last resort, and we began that when he was about 10 years old. It was a holistic vet who recommended it. Jimmy weighed about 65-70 pounds and his dosage was 1mg. That seems like a huge dose, but our vet explained that dogs metabolize it differently than we do, so they typically get a dose that would knock a human out cold. I think it worked pretty well, but then, every dog is different. Ask your vet about that.
By the way, we have now had two vets assure us that Xanax is not bad for dogs, and they do not become addicted to it the way humans can. So please, everyone, don't tell the OP what to do with prescribed medications. This is a conversation that needs to take place with a veterinarian.
There are many who now dispute the idea that consoling a fearful dog only reinforces his fears. We discussed this in another thread recently when I posted that I was working with our puppy to circumvent any storm fears he might be developing.
At this point, I'd say try the Thundershirt. We ended up getting one for Jimmy a couple years ago, but wouldn't you know, his hearing began to fail just then, and he stopped hearing the thunder. I think we used it once on him. Sit with him and tell him it's okay. Meditate if you have to. You already know that your dog can pick up on your feelings, so do try to feel calm.
I want to make one last important point. After we moved to Kansas and had gone through a couple very very stressful years for me (death of both parents, bad car accident, the move), we had trouble with our house, and it was due to being swindled by the sellers. There was no recourse for us because they were bankrupt and we were left with $10,000 in bills to repair what they had hidden. I melted down and developed a fullblown anxiety disorder. The focus of my anxiety was, of all things, weather. Storms. Something I had loved so much all my life was suddenly terrifying me, and not just before and during a storm. It was all the time. Like the OP's dog, I had a very hard time recovering from a weather episode, and I had very few moments of peace. It was so terrible that even tough I lost 30 pounds due to anxiety, I was miserable and would have gladly gained it back just to feel calm. (By the way, that's all history now.)
When you develop your own phobia, you realize it's irrational. You know you're safe. You know a thunderstorm isn't going to kill you and the chance of being hit by a tornado, even in Kansas, is statistically very small. But none of that matters. A phobia isn't rational. You know it makes no sense, yet you feel it anyway. I never truly understood how Jimmy was feeling during a storm until I experienced the same phobia. I am telling you this because if you're tempted to try and distract your dog or do things to convince him there is nothing to fear, don't bother. Just do what you can do to make him calm, with the Thundershirt, with medication, with you there with him, and let him be.
By the way, those desensitizing recordings? They don't work. Don't do that to your dog. Besides, the noise of a storm is only part of what brings on the fear, and recordings can't replicate the static electricity, the smell and the barometric pressure changes that are just as big a problem.
Location: Montreal -> CT -> MA -> Montreal -> Ottawa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TinaMcG
I never truly understood how Jimmy was feeling during a storm until I experienced the same phobia.
This was my takeaway sentence from your post.
The same way that once *I* became truly HAPPY, Artie became truly HAPPY. I wonder if the OP (hi, Lizita!) is anxious when her dog is anxious, and then it becomes a vicious cycle.
I'm glad that you're over and done with your anxiety, Tina. It's next to impossible to live a happy, normal life like that.
Best of luck to you and your pup, Lizita. I hope you find the magic to make Tim well.
One of my dogs becomes a total coward if he hears thunder...worse are fire works. It seems animals don't really like anything that signifies violence - unless they are in control and participating in the violence...They fear the unknown. Max sticks to me like glue when there are fire works...it's normal for most dogs. Call the dog close to you and encourage the animal to stick by your side...after all - You are the big protector and alpha creature....Myself...I look at the mutt and say "Max you are a coward- pull yourself together"
I am telling you this because if you're tempted to try and distract your dog or do things to convince him there is nothing to fear, don't bother.
I respect your opinion and your awful experience but I feel that is coming from a place of weak energy. Empathizing with the neurosis. I've never met a human in 50 years that had the anxiety about weather that you describe so It makes sense that you feel that way, and I'm sorry you went through that. Dogs do not naturally gravitate to the person with weak energy as a leader they gravitate to the weak one when THEY feel weak or have no choice OR attack the weak energy one.
It's not a matter of convincing but not AGREEING and sympathizing. You said "Sit with him and tell him it's okay." which is NOT "let him be".
I have a client who's dog whines incessantly when he's next to her and she's petting him "it's ok it's ok". The husband told me on the Meet & Greet it's only with her. Sure enough she did it during our interview. I asked her to leave the dog alone so I could see him but she could NOT she really had to practically tie her hands together. Sure enough the dog came to me no whining.
So I go: "Allison watch me make your dog nervous."
And I petted her and whined at her and she did the same thing immediately. The husband and I were laughing. This dog never had a bath in 11 years because she was "afraid of water" per the wife. She was very clean, I have no idea how. When she whined I said "Shhh" and stopped petting her and she stopped right away. And stayed next to me she wasn't "afraid" of me either.
The woman was the one with the anxiety. The dog never whined ONCE with me even in thunder storms when I did extra visits because she used to hide too. NO MEDS.
Quote:
By the way, we have now had two vets assure us that Xanax is not bad for dogs, and they do not become addicted to it the way humans can. So please, everyone, don't tell the OP what to do with prescribed medications. This is a conversation that needs to take place with a veterinarian.
I didn't tel her WHAT to do I told her what I'D do WITH DISCUSSIONS AND AGREEMENT FROM THE VET, and my experience with adverse reactions. He may chose to change meds or do something different.
Regardless of your vet comparing your dogs meds to humans and dismissing side effects they DO exist and the OP herself states his condition is escalating and she's having do dose him much higher.
The medication is doing NOTHING for the dog and should be a Rule In for this behavior. My weather anxiety dogs get doped up for the fireworks etc then wake up and live normally. Every single one. Carrying the anxiety to a 24 hour period is NOT normal - unless that next day is another rain day because dogs predict weather before we do.
You must have missed the part where she said he's acting this way now regardless of weather. Wherein I said to use those sunny days as an opportunity to do some brain boosting as a DOG and doing something FUN and primal like herding sheep. But this will NOT be workable if he's having adverse reactions to the Xanax which still may be in his system.
Another dog and human med that has adverse reactions is REGLAN for gi disorders and it causes serious side effects like LSD in some people and dogs and it takes FIVE DAYS to clear the system. There's a class action law suit against it for that very reason. Including horses bursting out of their locked stalls and barns from the anxiety from the drug.
IT COULD TAKE A LONG TIME FOR THIS DRUG TO WEAR OFF COMPLETELY, THE HALF LIFE IS 11 HOURS:
Long-term treatment with alprazolam can lead to physical dependence, which can result in undesirable behavior changes if the drug is abruptly discontinued.
Quote:
There are numerous serious side effects of the administration of Xanax including sudden onset of panic or anxiety, an upset stomach and breathing problems.
Alprazolam may cause side effects. Tell your doctor if any of these symptoms are severe or do not go away:
drowsiness
light-headedness
headache
tiredness
dizziness
irritability
talkativeness
difficulty concentrating
dry mouth
increased salivation
changes in sex drive or ability
nausea
constipation
changes in appetite
weight changes
difficulty urinating
joint pain
Some side effects can be serious. The following symptoms are uncommon, but if you experience any of them, call your doctor immediately:
shortness of breath
seizures
seeing things or hearing voices that do not exist (hallucinating)
severe skin rash
yellowing of the skin or eyes
depression
memory problems
confusion
problems with speech
unusual changes in behavior or mood
thinking about harming or killing yourself or trying to do so
problems with coordination or balance
Alprazolam may cause other side effects. Call your doctor if you have any unusual problems while taking this medication.
If you experience a serious side effect, you or your doctor may send a report to the Food and Drug Administration's (FDA) MedWatch Adverse Event Reporting program online [at http://www.fda.gov/Safety/MedWatch] or by phone [1-800-332-1088].
Last edited by runswithscissors; 06-30-2013 at 10:21 AM..
I have noticed with my various dogs over the past 30 yrs that none of mine were bothered by things like fireworks or thunder when they were younger but once they hit middle age those things started to cause major anxiety which got worse as they aged. My Parents lived a few miles from Disneyland so every night you would hear fireworks and at about age 7 both Jazz and Dash would start getting anxious and refuse to go out from about 7-10 PM when we visiting my parents and once the booms began they would be next to me panting and shivering they were so anxious. My parents two dogs became that way too around middle age. We found that melatonin would take the edge off and the thundershirt helped Jazz. I only had one and being she was them most upset she got it.
I won't quote the entire post from runswithscissors, but I want to point out that Jimmy came down with his anxiety problem over a decade before I did. Mine had nothing to do with his and his had nothing to do with mine, which lasted only a couple years, thank God.
As for the side effects of Xanax (alprazolam), they are the exception rather than the rule, and having taken Xanax on and off for four years (mostly off), I can't say I have had any side effect except the munchies. Sure, it makes you dozey. It's supposed to. And if you want to know what dside effects might impact a canine, talk to a vet. The information posted is for humans. You also posted a strange link from a site called VetInfo, which can't possibly be run by reputable vets, because they specifically say never to give human Xanax to dogs.
Guess what? There is only one kind of alprazolam, and it's made for humans and also prescribed for dogs! Our vet never carried that drug. I got it at our local Walmart or Walgreen's. There is no canine forumla of alprazolam.
And no, I did not miss the part where she mentioned her dog's problem has evolved into a GENERALIZED anxiety disorder. I experienced this with Jimmy -- and with myself. Trying to force an anxious dog outside to play in the sunshine and get lots of beneficial exercise when he is scared to death is completely counterproductive. I've been there myself, and anyone who tried to get me to RELAX! And SMILE! And GO TAKE A WALK! -- got a mouthful from me and then I started avoiding them because they didn't understand.
To the OP:
Consult your vet and get a recommendation for a behaviorist. If anyone can help, a behaviorist. And I also wouldn't rule out looking for an animal communicator to do a reading on your boy. We did that three times. I never learned specifically why Jimmy was fearful, but from what I got in the reading, I did learn that he was a very asture, observant and sensitive guy. Your dog Tim is a BC mix, probably real smart, maybe somewhat the same as our Jim.
Thanks so much for all responses. After a pretty hellish week Tim is finally doing better today. Not 100% but better. Since last night he's been happily coming outside with me without an issue and has been going much further than he did a couple of days ago. Today we went down to the park, about a ten minute walk away, and he would walk no further but it's much better than stopping just past the neighbor's house. I just hope and pray that there will be no more thunderstorms or fireworks in the next few days and we have to start all over again.
Tim has had his thyroid fully checked up. The thyroid levels (whatever you call it) were elevated the last two times he had blood work (geriatric panel) so it was followed up with additional thyroid testing which was normal. The vets (I've seen a couple of different ones at the office we go to) does not believe that there is anything physically wrong with him.
I'm just stumped over the fact that it got so bad all of a sudden this summer when it's never been this bad before. In the past he'd get better once the scary part is over. Now he's also started to be scared of any loud bangs. We heard a bang from a garbage truck setting down one of those big dumpsters while we were on a walk. Tim started to shake right away and took off running all the way home.
I'm wondering if the Xanax could actually be making things worse, perhaps part of the cause of the anxiety not going away once the scary situation is over. But then again once this started he didn't take anything and the anxiety still continued well into the next day. I don't know. I'm considering not giving him any next time but I don't know how long either one of us can hold out. What would you guys suggest?
We've tried Valium too but it didn't work as well. I've also tried Benadryl hoping it would make him sleepy but it didn't do anything.
I try not to reinforce his anxiety by talking to him in a sad voice, etc. I will sit with him and massage him but I talk to him with a happy voice and when we've gone on walks I keep telling him he's a good boy, encouraging him for every step. That has really helped to get him to walk outside. I've also more or less made him go outside once the rain and thunder is over even though he doesn't want to move. I'm not going to force him outside while he's shaking and is terrified and I'm not going to drag him outside but I've tugged the leash a bit and that made him walk out with me and my other dog.
I don't really pet him while he's shaking, whining and panting but I do put my arms around him and hold him tight or I massage him around his shoulder area. I think it does something similar as a thundershirt does by putting pressure around his chest, neck and shoulder area. It does help the shaking a bit. Could this he reinforcing his fears though?
Just watching my baby boy being so miserable is hard but I have to admit that this is an issue for purely selfish reasons too. Tim can whine incessantly and/or stand in the kitchen scratching at the wall or cabinet doors for hours. Or he'll come up and scratch/paw at me over and over like he wants my attention. I just can't figure out what he wants and I don't think he knows either.
Some nights he won't let me sleep, literally. He can have calmed down enough to where he's laying below the couch relaxing by my feet but the second I lay down he gets up on his feet and starts whining and scratching at me again. I have to admit that it drives me nuts after a while when it goes on and on. Unfortunately my husband has even less patience and is complaining about Tim's behavior.
How best should I handle it when he's walking around whining or standing somewhere scratching at the wall long after the thunderstorm is over? He unfortunately never liked to play much and has no herding instinct. He normally loves to go for walks but that's clearly not always an option.
I'm open to suggestions. I've got a feeling this will be a looooong summer. I'm going to order a thundershirt so please keep your fingers crossed that it will help.
ETA: I'm going to have a talk with the vet on Monday or Tuesday to see what she says.
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