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Old 07-31-2013, 05:56 PM
 
6,143 posts, read 12,536,051 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HOF4256 View Post
Sorry, forgot to address this:



Then why wouldn't you warn the person about the species-inappropriate ingredients, & recall history, of that particular brand, which they are curently using? Instead you take issue with others for doing so.

The TV "news" isn't going to inform pet owners of this crucial information. They have advertising dollars at stake.

IMO it's up to us pet lovers to look out for each other because the people who we'd expect to (as we are too conditioned to trust) certainly aren't.


Yes indeed. People are swayed by advertising. If they weren't advertising wouldn't be such big business.

Thank goodness there are sites like this where there are people like you and me (and others) who have done so much research and stay on top of this issue, and can help others who don't know.

There was a time when I didn't know either. And my pets suffered for it. Now I know, and I will continue to urge people to learn more about the foods they feed, and put their pets on better diets.

There are so so many ailments that can simply be avoided, by feeding a better diet. And generally it is places like this that people first start learning.
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Old 08-01-2013, 10:24 AM
 
Location: North Western NJ
6,591 posts, read 20,703,190 times
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OP.
as others have suggested the food is probably the #1 cuprpti here...itchy feet are MOST commonly caused by grain (food) allergies so my first suggestion would beto switch to a completely grain free food, theres many on the market, or going raw.
dogs are not designed to eat corn, wheet or soy and they tend to be a huge allergy issue.
if you cant go completely grain free, at least go for RICE, avoid corn, soy wheet and BYPRODUCT like poisen!

in addition id look for a food that is lamb, duck, salmon, ect...
anything other than chicken.
the chicken in commercial dog food is battery raised fed a diet incredibly high in soy, corn and hormones like estrogen and steroids...chickens also arnt designed to eat these things (their diet SHOULD be primarily grass and bugs!) and their bodies never truly flush the food form the system...so farm raised chicken tends to be "high allergen"
and in my opinion not because of the meat but because of what the chicken ate to bring it to processing size.

(I have a female Chinese crested whos incredibly sensitive to store bought chicken, yet can eat free range ith no issues)

novel proteins tend to be less likely to cause protein allergy issues.

Raw feeding is even better! I wish I had before and after photos of a friends English bulldog, before my frind got hershe was on a mid grade quality kibble, she had serious eye issues, open sores on her feet and legs and her skin was constantly dry and itchy and she was missing MOST of her hair...after 6 months on raw youd never belive it was the same dog, shes till got some eye issues due to the eyelashes issue, but her wounds have healed her skin is great shes no onger itchy and all her hair has grown back...shes also acting like a pup again!

in the mean time, for the itchies, oatmeal baths and a cooling mint spray help!
Benadryl can be given but only under vet care for dosage...

but personally id definatly start with diet
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Old 08-02-2013, 12:13 AM
 
10,604 posts, read 14,126,728 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HOF4256 View Post
You can continue being naive regarding how "helpful" Hill's "prescription" foods are, however the ingredients of such "prescription"/vet-endorsed foods, which Catsmom21 posted the example of, tell the story.
People trust their vets, so don't LOOk at the ingredients. They have the right to know this information, and how are they to find out unless they research via unbiased sources.

Which is what brings people here.

This isn't facebook, where people can pick & choose what *they* wish to read merely beause they post in a thread.
It's a world-wide INFORMATIONAL forum, which thousands+ of people have free access to. And information is what was provided. The actual ingredients. Nothing else NEEDS to be said. Those ingredients are not fitting a carnivorous mammal -- whether obligate or facultative -- and trusting people wonder why their drugged-up dogs never heal!!


ETA:

Here are the ingredients of the i/d:

i/d Canine Gastrointestinal Health - Dry

Whole Grain Corn, Brewers Rice, Dried Egg Product, Chicken By-Product Meal, Corn Gluten Meal, Pork Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), Powdered Cellulose, Lactic Acid, Dicalcium Phosphate, Chicken Liver Flavor, Iodized Salt, Potassium Citrate, Choline Chloride, Calcium Carbonate, Potassium Chloride, Dried Beet Pulp, Soybean Oil, vitamins (L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyph ...

If I could go back in time, I'd ask a vet "prescribing" this stuff why they believe ANY carnivore should be eating this stuff, and then find a lawyer.

But nobody told me. Had to learn it all the hard way.

Sorry if the truthful Information is not always going to be what people WANT to see. Why don't you look into the conflicts of interest of the Vets & the PFI and educate yourself before attacking peple who are trying to spare others of what they learned the HARD WAY?
Here's a start: http://leda.law.harvard.edu/leda/dat...Patrick06.html

As far as vets, family was blessed with a wonderful, honest Vet for decades and he had NO conflicts of interest influencing the care and advice he gave. As with all professions, not all vets are created equal, unfortunately, as we found out the hard way.

Wondering why our own chronically sick-scratching-chewing themselves raw- dogs should be eating sawdust of Pine Tree, salt, glutens & grains is what finally woke me up. This is what a vet "prescribed" the over-drugged dogs eat, until their internals finally couldn't take species-inappropriate "foods" anymore and/or the drugs took their toll.
I'm well aware of the ingredients in the ID and WHY they are in there, which is more than you can say, TBH. IT's also ludicrous that you're finger wagging at me since I "blamed" the food initially anyway. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see it. Like allergy 101.

I generally don't get in name calling debates with pet food radicals who have very little real world experience with the public and their pets, their buying habits, human nature, uneducated tin hatter views about vets and why they even carry prescription dog food to begin with...and often fatal diseases like Megaesophagus, Myasthenia Gravis and even Thyroid, which for MANY of those dogs Hills ID is a life saver. You don't know me to call me "naive" and I suggest you assess your own motives. I was an adviser on the Yahoo Megaesophagus board for years and until you have an animal that cannot even SWALLOW food or WATER properly, let alone keep it down, you don't have a clue about what will work or won't as it passes through the tract of a Neuro/GI compromised animal.

This board, of over 8000 subscribers, begging for help to keep their pets alive, is well respected and we have referrals from the top expert vets in the country like UC Davis, world renown Diane Shelton UCSD, Jeanne Dodds, the ACVIM, to assist people in navigating the treacherous path once they get a diagnosis of Myasthenia Gravis or Megaesophagus or during the differential diagnosis stage with LP, polymyositis, verious neuromuscular diseases, thyroid, Addisons, vomiting disorders, IBD, bleeding gastric ulcers, gastric bacteria etc.

They link direct to our group on their sites:

Comparative Neuromuscular Laboratory

Myasthenia Gravis and Megaesohpagus: Simple lifestyle changes can beat a guarded prognosis | Animal Neurlogy and MRI Center

Fractionalized grains in a low fat low residue food with mild proteins are the least of the problem, in fact, they are REQUIRED to prevent acids from refluxing up and dealing with esophagitis and dysmotility. It's either fractionalized grains or aspiration pneumonia or starving to death or euthanasia.

And guess what? Sometimes we even add Quaker OAT BRAN to it and it works BETTER!







If, god forbid you ever have one of these NEAR DEATH dogs in your house, and after spending days, weeks, months, years of getting 4 hours sleep, feeding 5 times a day in a special chair for a half hour, experimenting with various sources, texture, liquid, mush, throwing meatballs down their throats, making gelatin cubes of water just so they don't dehydrate, getting feeding tubes, administering endless medication combos, running to the ER every few months, thinking they're going to die tonight - about 27 times - if you MANAGE to get some food to be swallowed and not regurgitate back UP and not get pneumonia- you won't give a darn what's IN THE FOOD. And if you get lucky and Hills ID works - you'll be on your knees grateful for it. If you don't euth them first. The overall one-year mortality rate for canine acquired myasthenia gravis is reported to be between 40% and 60%.

Meanwhile, you may want to tone down your hyperbolic shade thrown at Royal Canin and brush up on your recall info.

RC hasn't had a recall since the 5600 product recall of 2007 with the Chinese melamine disaster. And they stopped using those factories because of it.

Meanwhile some of the "all star" dog foods are right here on current recall lists (and BTW Hills Prescription hasn't made the list yet):

Natura, Diamond, Wellness, Natural Balance....

https://www.avma.org/news/issues/rec...ls-alerts.aspx
Recalls & Withdrawals

If you really want to help dogs with FOOD problems, you can always pay for some Bailey Chairs for people who can't afford it.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater
https://www.facebook.com/baileychairs4dogs?filter=2

Or adopt this dog, who was turned in for the disease; he won't mind having to eat the dreaded vet prescription food to stay alive:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater

Last edited by runswithscissors; 08-02-2013 at 12:23 AM..
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Old 08-02-2013, 07:36 AM
 
380 posts, read 584,882 times
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Juts some info for people who may not be aware, and may be going through nightmares with their companion carnivores. I encourage to take what is posted on the Internet with an open mind and go to the library and confirm via ENCYCLOPEDIA when unbiased sources aren't right at the fingertips:

#1) What makes carnivores different than humans:

Quote:
Many carnivores, such as dogs and cats, have no amylase in their saliva; therefore, their natural diet contains very little starch.
human digestive system : Salivary glands -- Encyclopedia Britannica


Quote:
The anatomical features of carnivores are:

SHORT, SIMPLE & ACIDIC DIGESTIVE TRACTS. Protein and fat from animal source are quickly and easily digested – hence the short digestive system of dogs and cats.

SHARP TEETH (designed for slicing meat, not grinding plants). Carnivores have elongated teeth designed for tearing and killing prey. Their molars are triangular with jagged edges that function like serrated-edged blades that give a smooth cutting motion like the blades on a pair of shears.

JAWS MOVE VERTICALLY unlike herbivores and omnivores that grind their food by side to side chewing, the jaws of dogs and cats operate vertically to provide a smooth cutting motion, and open widely to swallow large chunks of meat.

NO AMYLASE IN SALIVA...
Illustration of the sharp teeth...: http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/cliented/a.../dog_mouth.JPG

anatomy of eating

Megaesophagus - Medical Definition and More from Merriam-Webster

http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/cliented/a.../dog_mouth.JPG

ANIMAL KINGDOM :: CARNIVOROUS MAMMALS images - Visual Dictionary Online

Quote:
Megaesophagus is a condition in humans, cats and dogs where peristalsis fails to occur properly and the esophagus is enlarged. Normally, when the animal's esophagus is functioning properly, it acts as a muscle and pushes the food down the esophagus into the stomach. However, when an animal has megaesophagus, the esophagus stays enlarged and does not push the food down to the stomach. Therefore, the food fails to enter the stomach and often stays in the esophagus, and is eventually regurgitated, or enters the lungs through breathing, or decays in the esophagus….
Quote:
There is a marked lack of contraction within the muscles involved in peristalsis with a constant contraction of the lower esophageal sphincter. Dilation of the esophagus results in difficulty swallowing.

Megaesophagus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Safe to bet that had the animals not been eating corn, soy etc. in the form of HARD cereal -- which they lack the anatomies & physiologies to chew and digest properly to begin with -- could have faced different fates.

Quote:
Peristalsis ...
In much of the gastrointestinal tract, smooth muscles contract in sequence to produce a peristaltic wave which forces a ball of food (called a bolus while in the esophagus and gastrointestinal tract and chyme in the stomach) along the gastrointestinal tract. Peristaltic movement is initiated by circular smooth muscles contracting behind the chewed material to prevent it from moving back into the mouth, followed by a contraction of longitudinal smooth muscles which pushes the digested food forward. Catastalsis is a related intestinal muscle process.[2]

<<<
Quote:
Fractionalized grains in a low fat low residue food with mild proteins are the least of the problem, in fact, they are REQUIRED to prevent acids from refluxing up and dealing with esophagitis and dysmotility
>>>

Love seeing "proteins" mentioned all the time while the fact that the "proteins" which carnivores were designed by nature to digest in the first place is that which is derived from meat. Not corn, soy, and the other fillers which enable foodstuffs to pass the "protein" requirement -- MEAT. And carnivores just happen to have the TEETH, jaws, digestive tracts, anatomies, biological makeup and physiologies to PROVE this.
But meat is expensive.
Guess you missed the 2007 recalls, and the reasons behind it.

Instead of putting them on species-appropriate diets, they must face treatments, drugs, IVs, seringes, etc. because the word "Carnivore" is a dirty word in the PFI, and the vets who are funded by them.

Last edited by Pamina333; 08-02-2013 at 07:46 AM..
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Old 08-02-2013, 03:54 PM
 
380 posts, read 584,882 times
Reputation: 755
I meant to put this at the bottom, not in the middle of copied & pasted quotes above:

Quote:
Safe to bet that had the animals not been eating corn, soy etc. in the form of HARD cereal -- which they lack the anatomies & physiologies to chew and digest properly to begin with -- could have faced different fates.
Point being, if a dog is allergic to soy, or (as you brought into the discussion), if the esophogus is not able to push the food down to the stomach to begin with, how would they be able to do so with the ingredients which are under debate here, when they lack the amylase in their saliva to try to break down the carbs to begin with? How about when it's kibble, which they can't even chew?

There is a very logical reason for why, whenever a cat or dog upchucks, you see whole kibbles, or big peices of it.

All too often, a species-approprite diet is not even considered before treatments of various issues, such as the OP, plaguing our pets.
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Old 08-02-2013, 05:33 PM
 
380 posts, read 584,882 times
Reputation: 755
Wasn't going to respond here, but was just thinking....

Quote:
I generally don't get in name calling debates with pet food radicals who have very little real world experience with the public and their pets, their buying habits, human nature, uneducated tin hatter views about vets and why they even carry prescription dog food to begin with.
Tell it to all these Diabetic cats, their owners, and the dedicated VETERINARIANS who are making getting cats not only healthy but into REMISSION -- yes remission -- a reality:

Diabetic Cat Care
yourdiabeticcat.com
Feline Diabetes —Diabetes in Cats — Treatment and Diabetic Cat Info — FDMB

But yes, you're right. I haven't ever been in the business of selling pet goods. But at least I know what a carnivore is.
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Old 12-07-2014, 06:43 PM
 
Location: A tropical island
4,541 posts, read 4,405,708 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pamina333 View Post
Have to chime in here for my own dogs suffered for years because we believed we could trust vets & commercials when it came to food, and learned it all the hard way.

Yeah, that's the problem. People *Think* they're feeding the best, but are misled, and they have the right to know this.

Also, although not obligate, dogs are (falcutative) carnivores.

I suggest the OP look into all the issues and recalls Royal Canin -- especially the "prescription" foods -- have had, particularly since 2006, and how many animals it has harmed. A quick FDA and/or google search will say plenty -- besides 2007 !
And try to find a vet who knows that dogs shouldn't be eating like cows (or rats.)
Why is there so much mistrust of vets when it comes to the ingredients and brands of dog food? Sure, they probably make some money off the dog food they sell in their office, but they could sell any brands they want. Do people really think that vets don't understand a dog's digestive system, nutritional needs, etc.? If you don't trust your vet to recommend a good food, do you trust him/her for anything? And if you don't trust a vet for feeding advice, what source do you trust? Some website funded by who knows what company? Total strangers in a forum like this?...when everyone knows that most industries have "plants" who post in forums to give fake reviews and sway people.
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Old 12-07-2014, 07:07 PM
 
Location: zone 5
7,330 posts, read 13,167,971 times
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From what I've heard, most veterinarians have only had one class in nutrition when they finish school. And all veterinary schools are heavily funded by pet food manufacturers. That is where a lot of the mistrust comes from. I don't reject everything a vet says out of hand, but I don't blindly believe everything they say about nutrition either. I've been fortunate to have always had caring vets who I believe put my pets' best interest first, but they don't know everything. More and more vets are beginning to look at the nutrition questions differently.
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Old 12-07-2014, 10:08 PM
 
771 posts, read 1,115,332 times
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It's a bummer most of the advice in here is off topic and slightly useless. My dog is going through something similar right now. I've changed her food multiple times to the point I've concluded she's probably not allergic to the food. The vet is assuming allergies and gave us Medrol, which only worked halfway through the dosage recommendations. It worked enough that she stopped the bleeding/scratching on her face, but then halfway through when the dosage lowered, she just started scratching up again. She's been off the meds for about 2 weeks now and her face is ready to start bleeding again any day now. And her feet licking as increases, again. Really not looking forward to going back to the vet who will probably just give her a different medication to try. While she has licked her feet compulsively for about 2 years, it was never really a problem. It's only that the past 2 months, she suddenly started scratching her face a lot to the point of losing hair, redness, and bleeding. I've read of applying a 50/50 apple cider vinegar/water mix to the itchy areas.... i did it for a day and she went a bit nuts rubbing her face on everything to get it off. So I don't know if that means it really worked or what... but has anyone successfully used any topical things that can be found in our pantries, with success? To reduce dog itching?

Side note, she's a 3 year old terrier mix... furry white thing... kind of similar to the Cairne or Coton de Tulear breeds.
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Old 12-08-2014, 06:23 AM
 
Location: A tropical island
4,541 posts, read 4,405,708 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pandaundercover View Post
It's a bummer most of the advice in here is off topic and slightly useless. My dog is going through something similar right now. I've changed her food multiple times to the point I've concluded she's probably not allergic to the food. The vet is assuming allergies and gave us Medrol, which only worked halfway through the dosage recommendations. It worked enough that she stopped the bleeding/scratching on her face, but then halfway through when the dosage lowered, she just started scratching up again. She's been off the meds for about 2 weeks now and her face is ready to start bleeding again any day now. And her feet licking as increases, again. Really not looking forward to going back to the vet who will probably just give her a different medication to try. While she has licked her feet compulsively for about 2 years, it was never really a problem. It's only that the past 2 months, she suddenly started scratching her face a lot to the point of losing hair, redness, and bleeding. I've read of applying a 50/50 apple cider vinegar/water mix to the itchy areas.... i did it for a day and she went a bit nuts rubbing her face on everything to get it off. So I don't know if that means it really worked or what... but has anyone successfully used any topical things that can be found in our pantries, with success? To reduce dog itching?

Side note, she's a 3 year old terrier mix... furry white thing... kind of similar to the Cairne or Coton de Tulear breeds.
I have no advice, but I understand your frustration. I found this old thread while searching for info on dogs licking paws, which my Maltese does incessantly. Like you, we have switched foods a few times, she's been on grain-free for about 6 months, but still licks. Our new vet (we moved earlier this year) says the grain-free fad is not supported by science. He spent a long time talking with me about canine nutrition, the research that is going on, and the dangers of relying on internet info. And no, he did not try to sell me anything in particular that he carries. There were some other specific things he told me about, but I don't want to derail this thread any further away from the topic of dogs licking their paws.

Oh, I've also used a product called Paws. You use it 3 days in a row. Lily's first round of 3 days (a few months ago) seemed to help a little bit, then the licking returned. We did another 3-day round recently, and it hasn't made any difference.
Stop Paw Licking, Paw Licking Problems, Dog Paws - Omega Paw Solutions
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