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Old 11-23-2007, 08:51 PM
 
Location: huh?
3,099 posts, read 2,022,610 times
Reputation: 499

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Quote:
Originally Posted by eevee View Post
nope, my LL has home insurance, gets a discount b/c his dogs are CGC certified. and I'm not quite sure how a dog license is traceable (truthfully; my dog was never licensed and we never had any trouble, no fines or anything. back then (late 90's), the city just never checked)

are you a lawyer? just wondering because you sound like one. I only ask b/c, while the points you bring up are great and very valid, it just isn't likely to stick w/ the pit owners I was talking about. these aren't the type of people that go searching for various laws before taking in that stray pit puppy or buying one from a friend's litter. they may not know the legal consequences of not following the BSL. seriously, some of these people just don't know about the BSL and it's not their fault.

anyways, back to the original story: has there been any more news about this attack? I'm a bit worried because I seem to remember Josef being a minor celebrity of sorts (designer or something) and if he started railing against pits, that might jump start the whole state wide ban again (b/c politicians don't really care when the average Joe gets bitten by any random dog; it's only when a child, celeb, or some politician's dog gets bit that an uproar is raised). it would be great that, if the dog wasn't at fault, the victim would come out and say so (people are probably thinking that dog was Satan incarnate when it's possible there's more to the story that would clear things up)
but it WAS the dog's fault. and please dont say that the only reason a dog would bite is because of illness or that it was josef's fault. do you not have any compassion for humans anymore? is all of your compassion reserved only for pit bulls? will you never believe a dog bite victim's story? do you think maybe they are lying? do you think maybe josef provoked this dog attack with the hidden motive to help ban all pit bulls or create media frenzy? what in the heck is going on with you people? though i really dont want to talk about this anymore.

 
Old 11-23-2007, 08:55 PM
 
Location: Jax
8,204 posts, read 32,158,255 times
Reputation: 3392
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicolepsy View Post
again i appreciate a balanced post such as this. no i do not think my mind is closed. no one here has convinced me yet to change my mind though. i am always open to changing my mind if the arguments make sense (to me). it seems that when pit bull owners/lovers/breeders here arent able to convince me/others like they try so very hard to do that they then go into attack mode. yes let's be fair and see if you or anyone else reprimands others that attack me such as what anydaynow said to me on this thread (though i am sure she feels very silly now for saying it). one last thing that i believe to be wrong with any pit bull threads on this forum is that some pit bull owners here seem to have one goal and one goal only. it is to "raise awareness about breed prejudice". i think if you want to do that then you should go march on capitol hill or write your state rep, etc but not use this forum with one goal and one goal only. i also dont know why others purposely post these negative dog attack news stories. is it maybe to egg everyone on? i think there should be a separate forum OR these news stories shouldnt be allowed to be posted. i think you all (pitt bull lovers) have a TON of work to do regarding bsl and i wish you luck, but since the majority of people think pit bulls are generally dangerous i think your efforts will be wasted. im not saying that it is fair but i do think it is highly likely. it's very funny how you or i can type something and then the reader can change the words and say you said something you didnt. little things like the word SOME seemed to get read as MOST. apbtsamara states above that i referred to pit bulls as "ugly mean pit bulls" and i never used those words nor would i. part of the problem is your brain's interpretation of what your eyes are reading (im not talking about you personally redbird but alot of others including myself maybe tend to interpret incorrectly what others have actually said. let's be honest that some pit bull owners here have disliked me from my very first question "why would you want to own a pitbull". i never posted that question with the intent of arguing. i had no idea that most would attack me. no idea. i truly wondered why of alllll the breeds to choose from they would choose that one. some said "these dogs choose us" which i found to be a lovely answer but when they found they couldnt convince me to believe what they wanted they then went into attack mode and held a grudge. so be it. i dont mind. i just wish that people would read things slowly and multiple times sometimes. thanks.
There are no plans for a separate Pit Bull forum.

I too wish people would take the time to read the responses more thoroughly, but alas, this is merely a forum .

Being a forum, there is a certain decorum and we can't call others out or insult others grammar, etc. We also can't turn this into a spitting match. Let's stay on topic, and in this thread there is a very specific topic (see page 1 ).
 
Old 11-23-2007, 09:23 PM
 
Location: Chicago
6,021 posts, read 13,512,229 times
Reputation: 8045
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicolepsy View Post
but it WAS the dog's fault. and please dont say that the only reason a dog would bite is because of illness or that it was josef's fault. do you not have any compassion for humans anymore? is all of your compassion reserved only for pit bulls? will you never believe a dog bite victim's story? do you think maybe they are lying? do you think maybe josef provoked this dog attack with the hidden motive to help ban all pit bulls or create media frenzy? what in the heck is going on with you people? though i really dont want to talk about this anymore.
***sigh*** WHY are you so insulting??? look, dogs RARELY bit w/o reason. that's just a fact. the reason why this dog bit wasn't been established yet. yes, the dog is at fault if by fault you mean it did the actual biting, but we don't know the whole story and in many, many, many, many cases of dog bites, there are factors not mentioned in the immediate news report that shows the reason why a dog may have been bitten. the vast majority of the time, there is a reason, whether the dog was neglected, abused, ill socialized, fearful, ill trained, overly dominant, overly protective, etc. notice how most of these reasons are caused by humans, caused by an owner's action or inaction. no I don't think the victim purposely provoked the dog, but THIS WAS NOT HIS DOG! that is a key point in this issue b/c he may not have known this dog well and may have done something so minor, so trivial, that it set the dog off (my shih tzu HATED having her front paws touched and would snap at you if you did. she also would snap at you if you tried to comfort her during thunderstorms b/c she would be out of her mind w/ fear). again, no blame can be placed on either the dog or the victim by anyone here w/o the facts

I'm done w/ this thread; way too many idiotic, personal attacks being leveled against people here
 
Old 11-23-2007, 09:41 PM
 
Location: St. Augustine, Florida
1,930 posts, read 9,457,870 times
Reputation: 1022
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicolepsy View Post
if you want to own a pit bull then fine but how can you say that most news stories are crap and not true? if you hear on the news that they are finding too much lead in children's toys are you then going to dismiss it and buy the toys anyway? are you now going to research lead because you think the story is a bunch of crap? let's say you do research lead and come to the conclusion that hmmm, maybe there is too much lead in toys afterall. does that then mean that all the people who still dont believe there is lead in toys are uneducated and misinformed? we all come to our own conclusions and all have a right to our own opinions dont you think? just as you have the right to own a pitbull (though your time may be running out soon due to bsl) others have a right to voice their opinions on city data without angry people sending others nasty messages on their rep points which is what happened to me yesterday. i dont think i have ever said "all pit bulls are vile and should be destroyed". i simply ask questions as to why some would want to own them and then am verbally attacked.
Yes, I do own three American Pit Bull Terriers, and yes, APBTs are my breed of choice, because they are the best breed for my husband and I. They fit our lifestyle, personalities, wants and needs as close to perfectly as you can get. But, the fact that we own "pit bulls", and the fact that APBTs are my breed of choice has absolutely nothing to do with me not believing all of the "pit bull" attack stories I hear in the media.

Quote:
how can you say that most news stories are crap and not true?
First of all, I don't remember saying that most news stories are not true, and if I did, I meant to say that most of the "pit bull" attack stories in the news are not true. I was only talking about the "pit bull" attack stories, nothing else. And I can say that most of the "pit bull" attack stories are crap because it is true. As I have already said, there are 25+ breeds that are commonly mistaken as the "pit bull" breeds, those of us that have been involved with the breeds for years can't properly ID them 100% of the time. That being said, most people, in the heat of the moment, during an attack, can't properly ID the breed of the dog. Especially with all of the "pit bull" horror stories out there these days. Because of all of the myths, media hype, etc, people tend to just assume that any dog that has short fur, a wide head and any kind of muscle definition at all is a "pit bull", especially if it is attacking someone. There are many, many "pit bull" attack stories that have ended up not being "pit bulls" at all, and that's the truth. There are several websites with info on all of this, but I can only remember this one off the top of my head, Punish the Deed, not the Breed! (broken link) A few other websites with info on this have been posted by other people on CD, so I'll find them and post the inks a little later.

Now, I'm definitely not saying that ALL "pit bull" attack stories are actually other breeds, or that "pit bulls" don't attack. Again, there are many "pit bull" attack stories that do end up being other breeds, but for the ones that are really "pit bulls" a lot of info tends to get left out. The truth is, people read or watch stories about "pit bull" attacks. Those stories get ratings, and that's the main reason why there are always so many "pit bull" attack stories. What upsets me is that most of the time the reporter hasn't done their research, like they would do for other stories. For example, you hear about a family "pit bull" that just turned one day and attacked someone in the family, that is the version that gets the most ratings. You don't hear the whole truth, you don't hear about how the dog was really abused, or neglected, or chained up in a basement or outside and just left there, alone with no training or socialization. You don't hear about the irresponsible and abusive people that own these "pit bulls". You don't hear about the fact that the dog was poorly bred, or ill. You do not hear the truth, and that is the truth! That is what makes me mad. Again, there are more websites with info on this as well, but this is the website I can remember right now, Punish the Deed, not the Breed!

Taken From Text:

Quote:
Story as reported:

Young girl was mauled to death by family pit bulls. Neighbors reported the dogs were friendly and loved the kids. They were family dogs. They had been raised with the children since puppyhood. The dogs had escaped the basement and attacked the girl while she was playing on the swing set at their old house.

Things not mentioned in the story or that need to be pointed out as what NOT to do:

1. These were made out to be family pets, yet the family had moved and the dogs were being kept locked in the basement of the old house. How long were they without human companionship?

2. The dogs were both malnourished.

3. Both dogs had ingested rat poison (which can lead to aggressive behavior)

4. The Female dog was only a year old and had already been shot at some point in her life with a bullet still lodged in her groin.

5. The Male dog was intact.

6. The female dog was intact and in heat.
All dogs can attack, all dogs can be poorly bred, all dogs can be abused and/ or neglected, all dogs can be trained to be mean, all dogs can just not be trained or socialized at all. etc, etc. American Pit Bull Terriers, American Staffordshire Terriers and Staffordshire Bull Terriers are not born mean or vicious. They do not just turn on people, attack for no reason or attack without warning. These are not bad breeds in any way. These breeds, along with other breeds, do tend to attract the wrong kinds of owners sometimes, but that's not the dogs fault and if the dog had a choice I can grantee that he wouldn't choose to live with an irresponsible, abusive, neglectful, heartless owner! The media takes advantage of the fact that some of these dogs do end up in horrible homes and because of the hell they go through they can turn out to be mean. Instead of the media telling the whole story they say what people want to hear so that they can get their ratings.

Quote:
if you hear on the news that they are finding too much lead in children's toys are you then going to dismiss it and buy the toys anyway? are you now going to research lead because you think the story is a bunch of crap? let's say you do research lead and come to the conclusion that hmmm, maybe there is too much lead in toys afterall. does that then mean that all the people who still dont believe there is lead in toys are uneducated and misinformed?
I didn't say anything about any of that. What in the world does that have to do with anything? lol! so, I'm not even going to say anything about that.

Quote:
we all come to our own conclusions and all have a right to our own opinions dont you think?
I agree 100%. I say that all of the time. Everyone has their own opinions and they are absolutely entitled to them. But this isn't about opinions.

Quote:
just as you have the right to own a pitbull (though your time may be running out soon due to bsl)
We own three APBTs, not a pitbull. And no, our time isn't running up! lol! We can move whenever we want to or have to. There is no way we would ever give any of our fur babies up, they are well trained, well socialized, friendly family pets, and they haven't done anything wrong. Why in the world would we give them up? There are plenty of cities that we can live in, as long as we don't move to Miami, Denver, etc we are just fine. I'd say we are pretty safe in the state we live in, for now anyway. And if something does come up, all we have to do is move to the next city or county. Not a problem at all.

Quote:
others have a right to voice their opinions on city data without angry people sending others nasty messages on their rep points which is what happened to me yesterday.
Again, I'm not really sure what that has to do with anything? Oh, and people shouldn't be giving you negative rep. simply because they don't agree with you, that's against the rules, I guess that's what you would call them! lol! They also shouldn't be leaving nasty messages, that's also against the rules.

Quote:
i dont think i have ever said "all pit bulls are vile and should be destroyed". i simply ask questions as to why some would want to own them and then am verbally attacked
Hmm, again, I'm not sure what this had to do with my post, but I never said that you said that, and I never thought that that was how you felt. Also, this is the thread about the news story, this isn't about the thread that you started. I didn't say anything about that thread. I also don't think that I attacked you in anyway, and if I did, that's certainly not what I meant to do. So, if you did take my post as an attack I am truly sorry, that's not at all what I was trying to do.
 
Old 11-23-2007, 09:43 PM
 
1,177 posts, read 8,069,295 times
Reputation: 905
Quote:
Originally Posted by eevee View Post
***sigh*** WHY are you so insulting??? look, dogs RARELY bit w/o reason. that's just a fact. the reason why this dog bit wasn't been established yet. yes, the dog is at fault if by fault you mean it did the actual biting, but we don't know the whole story and in many, many, many, many cases of dog bites, there are factors not mentioned in the immediate news report that shows the reason why a dog may have been bitten. the vast majority of the time, there is a reason, whether the dog was neglected, abused, ill socialized, fearful, ill trained, overly dominant, overly protective, etc. notice how most of these reasons are caused by humans, caused by an owner's action or inaction. no I don't think the victim purposely provoked the dog, but THIS WAS NOT HIS DOG! that is a key point in this issue b/c he may not have known this dog well and may have done something so minor, so trivial, that it set the dog off (my shih tzu HATED having her front paws touched and would snap at you if you did. she also would snap at you if you tried to comfort her during thunderstorms b/c she would be out of her mind w/ fear). again, no blame can be placed on either the dog or the victim by anyone here w/o the facts

I'm done w/ this thread; way too many idiotic, personal attacks being leveled against people here
Good post!!! I can't see how people act as if this dog had the cognitive thought and just wakes up thinking I'm going to attack someone/some other animal today. When a dog bites, the dog NOR the victim is at a fault. It is the owner of the dog. Many times through irresponsibility. Other times by accident or ignorance. It is still there fault, they are supposed to be the more intelligent. It isn't their fault they were watching an unstable dog, but it is the owner's fault for leaving such a dog with them and for even allowing such a dog to be alive. Why would you leave an unpredictable dog in the care of someone else? People are so irresponsible these days. When their dog bites they want to act like its not their fault but the dogs fault and "they never did anything like that before". Dogs with past bites/complaints against them that have went on to serious bites/attacks their owners have said the very same lies. Even with documented proof of bites or aggression in the past.
 
Old 11-23-2007, 09:45 PM
 
Location: St. Augustine, Florida
1,930 posts, read 9,457,870 times
Reputation: 1022
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicolepsy View Post
what is your point? im sorry if some people dont take a million photos a day like you seem to. the guy that owned the dog was out of town or something so how could they even get a pix? why do you laugh at everything?
Actually, I hardly ever take pictures, not that it really matters or has anything to do with this.

What's wrong with laughing? Is it bad to be a happy person? Why are you always so serious? What's wrong? lmao!
 
Old 11-23-2007, 10:00 PM
 
Location: St. Augustine, Florida
1,930 posts, read 9,457,870 times
Reputation: 1022
Quote:
Originally Posted by APBT_Samara View Post
Good post!!! I can't see how people act as if this dog had the cognitive thought and just wakes up thinking I'm going to attack someone/some other animal today. When a dog bites, the dog NOR the victim is at a fault. It is the owner of the dog. Many times through irresponsibility. Other times by accident or ignorance. It is still there fault, they are supposed to be the more intelligent. It isn't their fault they were watching an unstable dog, but it is the owner's fault for leaving such a dog with them and for even allowing such a dog to be alive. Why would you leave an unpredictable dog in the care of someone else? People are so irresponsible these days. When their dog bites they want to act like its not their fault but the dogs fault and "they never did anything like that before". Dogs with past bites/complaints against them that have went on to serious bites/attacks their owners have said the very same lies. Even with documented proof of bites or aggression in the past.
Great post! I agree! Most of the time the attack isn't the dog's fault or the victim's fault. It's the breeder and/ or owner's fault, whether it was intentional or not. People seem to think that dog's can rationalize? If that were the case things would be a lot different. It's the breeders job to properly breed their dogs, and it's the owners job to properly raise, train, socialize and control their dog. Just because I hate hearing all of these "pit bull" attack stories that have usually been twisted around or had things left out doesn't mean that I in anyway think it's okay for a dog to attack someone or for an owner to be irresponsible. Dog attacks are horrible, I have been attacked by a dog, one of my dogs has been attacked and I know other people that have been attacked. It's a horrible thing to go through and I really feel for anyone that has to go through that. But it's not the breeds fault. It's the owners fault and they should be punished accordingly. And the dog should be punished as well. Even though it's really not the dog's fault, dogs can't just go around attacking people.
 
Old 11-23-2007, 10:09 PM
 
Location: Fort Worth, Texas
10,732 posts, read 31,716,561 times
Reputation: 6773
I hear so much about pit bulls, I am tired of people making generalizations. I knew one that was a big baby, slobbered a little more then I would have liked but a baby just the same, he had his own cat that loved him SO much.

I used to hear alot of bad press about Dobermans, I met one the other day that was a baby, allowed me to walk up to him (with his owners permission of course) while he was in the car, his head out the window. I presented him with my cheek and asked for a kiss and he kissed me, sweet as you can imagine.

I don't judge an animal based on the name someone calls them.
 
Old 11-23-2007, 10:09 PM
 
1,177 posts, read 8,069,295 times
Reputation: 905
The whole reason a dog should also be punished is because they can't rationalize or talk. You can't talk to them about why they did this and don't do it again. They can't be trusted. They are not stable or have a temperament problem. If they could speak our language and rationalize it would be a lot different. But you can't send them to the pound for awhile to reform them and get them a counselor to talk about their problems, having them PTS is probably the safest. They are dogs. They don't realize even realize their fate like a person can.
 
Old 11-25-2007, 10:42 PM
 
Location: Metromess
11,798 posts, read 21,920,238 times
Reputation: 5069
Dogs can't understand language, at least not much of it, but they can certainly understand tone of voice and whether they are being praised or chewed out. Some dogs can be trusted. Of course they can't be trusted if they have been abused their entire lives with no love at all. Neither can humans under the same conditions. Trust must be earned, and it goes both ways.
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