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Dogs are more aggressive when they're on leash around other dogs that are off leash. They feel insecure because they are at a disadvantage being on a leash. Since you absolutely have to keep her on a leash, you need to avoid places where people have their dogs off leash. That means avoid dog parks. Instead go for walks in people parks where dogs are leashed. If you want to take her swimming, head for a remote area of the lake instead of where an area where many dogs are off leash.
I agree with foxywrench that submissive is not a good trait in a dog. They are very insecure and unpredictable.
Do a vet check and work with a reputable trainer who focuses on rewards as positive reinforcement.
You also need to accept that you will need to put Holly to sleep if she attacks again---person or canine.
I think people need to clarify what they mean by submissive. My dog is described by the doggie daycare people with amazement as one of the most submissive dogs they've ever encountered. By that, they do not mean he is insecure. Instead, they say he can get almost any dog to play with him because he approaches them and allows the other dog to take the lead. They said that he had older, antisocial dogs that had never played with any of the other dogs romping around like puppies.
I've never actually witnessed this, though they were raving about it. When he is with me, he doesn't really show interest in other dogs at the dog park because I have the ball. But recently, when he encountered a very "dominant" Papillon while we were at a park, he (a 50-lb Catahoula) immediately dropped to his belly, tail wagging, and allowed the much smaller dog to do basically whatever it wanted until it dog felt in charge. Then they played for a little bit.
A submissive dog is not necessarily without confidence. The problem with the OP's dog is not that she is submissive but that she does not understand her place in the pack or how to respond appropriately to strange dogs/people.
Our mixed-breed dog (a mix of which breeds we don't know) has shown aggression with other dogs for most of her life. It was worse when our lab (her "brother") was still with us. We think she felt as though she had to protect him.
She's not aggressive with all dogs, just some, and usually while on leash. Off leash, she's usually a bit more relaxed. We tried trainers and training, and were eventually told that some dogs are just like this.
She's an old girl now (12+ years old), and we no longer have our labbie, but she still shows that fighting spirit sometimes.
In the end, we chose not to give up on her. She has us, she had her brother, and we just know not to put her in questionable situations. We keep her on leash outside, we make sure our gates are locked, we don't visit dog parks, and we introduce her to other dogs extremely cautiously. We exercise her at least twice a day, everyday day.
She loves people, and has never bitten anybody. Vets love her. Neighborhood kids hug and kiss her. She loves having visitors. We just limit her exposure to other dogs. It not a big deal if you're vigilant about it. She's worth it.
I think people need to clarify what they mean by submissive. My dog is described by the doggie daycare people with amazement as one of the most submissive dogs they've ever encountered. By that, they do not mean he is insecure. Instead, they say he can get almost any dog to play with him because he approaches them and allows the other dog to take the lead. They said that he had older, antisocial dogs that had never played with any of the other dogs romping around like puppies.
I've never actually witnessed this, though they were raving about it. When he is with me, he doesn't really show interest in other dogs at the dog park because I have the ball. But recently, when he encountered a very "dominant" Papillon while we were at a park, he (a 50-lb Catahoula) immediately dropped to his belly, tail wagging, and allowed the much smaller dog to do basically whatever it wanted until it dog felt in charge. Then they played for a little bit.
A submissive dog is not necessarily without confidence. The problem with the OP's dog is not that she is submissive but that she does not understand her place in the pack or how to respond appropriately to strange dogs/people.
Your dog has a history of nipping people. There's no one isolated incident. She's shown a history of aggressive behavior. As someone with experience with dogs, I can tell you this. Bully breeds(pits, bulldogs, etc) are not all vicious dogs. In fact, most are not. However, you need to realize that a bull breed dog attacking is not the same as another dog attacking. Most dogs will growl or show some sign through body language they will attack any second. Bully breeds go from 0 to 60 in the blink of an eye. One minute, your pit/bulldog is quiet and calm. You blink and they're going berserk.
Like others have said, you will end up on the wrong end of a lawsuit if you don't do something. Either get your dog in some serious training, or get rid of it. It's going to come to the point where something small will set off your dog and the end result will not be pretty. And at a year old, a dog has not peaked at size or strength. In another year or two, an attack will be much worse.
I have rescues and this particular one was found crammed in a crate in a woman's kitchen with 5 other dogs. Her brother had to be put to sleep. She has a significant fear of humans coming in the house and will bark but run away from them.
We walk the neighborhood and have been walking three miles in the park every morning because she can act like such a jackass with people coming or especially other dogs.
Take the dog places without the other dogs ALONE
I tried something. Instead of taking the two dogs for a walk I only took the one. Her demeanor was MUCH different. No twisting and turning, snarling or barking. I even took her to one of my nephew's football games one afternoon and people petted her and a little girl walked up and wrapped her whole body around her and hugged her and she had no reaction. The other dog was allowing her to be bolder.
What to do verses not what to do.
Walking in the park with other dogs, she snarls like a killer, barks, jumps and twists to get away -total nut. When other dogs started to come in our direction on the path, I started making her sit and holding her head and saying, "Good girl, now look at me. Focus on me. Look at me." It took a while and we are still working on it, but she is starting to look at me for clues when she sees them coming. Then I praise her with, "Good girl, very good girl." We're getting there and it's been a slow process. We are starting to be able to walk past them and she turns her head to look at me.
We not only walk past dogs and people but deer, you could reach out and touch, geese, rabbits and all other meandering wildlife.
The key with her is to establish what you want her to do and not what you don't want her to do. Establish yourself as the focal point and that she needs to look to you on what she is allowed to do and not do.
When people are walking toward us. I say, "Be a good girl, good girl" and if she is I act extremely happy with her "GOOD GIRL." I try to stay positive with my approach while a good "NO" is always going to be necessary.
There is another woman I see from time to time walking her dogs on the path and she is always yelling at them all p.o'd. "STOP IT" "DON'T" "KNOCK IT OFF" trouble is they don't know what they should do when she yells negatives at them like this. I also use only ONE WORD commands. "Out" "In" "Now" my dogs respond to one word commands.
I also have a knot tied in their leashes and this is where I know I need to hold them while walking when around others. I slip my hand through the loop and then hold the knot. It still gives them a loose leash unless they pull then they can't go far.
It's been a slow process, but the best suggestion is one trainers and everyone else will tell you - consistency is the key. We go to that park every morning.
Last edited by Thursday007; 08-05-2014 at 02:57 AM..
Evaluate Holly's diet. What are you feeding her? Read the labels, what's in the food? Many dog foods contain sugar, or high carbs that turn into sugar.
First, never have her off leash outside of your own fenced yard (if you have a fenced yard) - ever. That includes her swimming in the lake. You said she's on leash on the shore, but she was off leash in the lake - not ok - you have to protect others and by doing that you are also protecting her.
Definitely see a behaviorist and get a full vet workup. Maybe also see if anything is going on with her joints, bones. My dog hasn't been outright aggressive like this BUT she has been very snarly toward other dogs if she was in pain - at the time she was having really bad joint issues.
It seems like if she's still going to day care and doesn't behave this way that there's hope. I don't know - I have a neighbor with an extremely reactive GSD who goes to day care - the neighbor swears the dog is just "talking" - meanwhile I won't let my dog near this dog because it wants to chew my dog in half. But the dog is fine in day care.
She could be resource guarding you and your family, which takes serious intervention from a behaviorist...good luck...
Hi,
I have been referring to this forum since long before we adopted our dog holly. She is an american bulldog mix, a petite girl about 40 lbs with a very soft look for a bully breed.
Since we got her and she was fully vaccinated we have been participating in training, daycare and pack walks for socializing. She is the sweetest dog, and everyone at day care, as well as her trainers tell us she is a submissive girl. She can be a little insecure, and she is in a fear imprint stage right now, so we are doing alot of work retraining all of the skills and behaviors we have already invested in....
So now that she is just passed 1 year old...she cannot be off leash with us ever, she has tried to attack other dogs...she has tried to nip at the occasional person who tries to pet her (not all people, she loves people and will typically do anything for some pets).
On leash she is inconsistent, we keep her beside or behind us at all times, and keep between her and other dogs on walks, because again on a couple of occasions she has gone crazy at an approaching dog.
Yesterday we had her at the lake for 2 hours, so lots of swimming and always on leash when on the shore (poor girl she was the only one) there were kids and dogs around and she watched them from time to time, but never reactive it was a really nice day.
At the end of 2 hours a labradoodle approached us very cheerfully not aggressively or fast,, and holly went insane, she was trying to get at the other dog, and bit my partner, as he was between them, she looked like a fighting cage dog, it was so wild and so intense and so aggressive we had to pin her down and ask the other dog owners to keep their dogs away while we tried to calm her.
We ended up leaving immediately as everyone on the beach was staring in horror.
Our trainers is saying more socializing,but again this girl spends half her time at day care where they have seen no indication of this behavior at all.
We are trying to be thick skinned about it, but its devastating, I feel like I am completely failing this dog, and also do not believe for a second that it is her breed or in her nature. She is so sweet and loving.
I trust my trainer but am looking for more advice, suggestions, or anyone who has gone through this and came out with a good dog.
Thanks all!
I didn't read all the posts. I am a dog walker and pet sitter and have had hundreds of dogs AND had to manage them in crowded small spaces like elevators.
That bite was accidental it happens all the time. YOU SHOULD NOT ALLOW DOGS TO APPROACH YOU ever again!!!
She was RED ZONE and nowhere to direct it because she couldn't get to the dog.
I am happy to say I don't think she has a brain tumor. She may have thyroid and you need a FULL PANEL not a screening.
HOWEVER....Sorry to tell you YOU are the problem. And she is unstable and unpredictable.
The fact that she can be at daycare and NEVER BITE anyone proves it.
You have WEAK ENERGY. You are fearful. You are insecure about her. You are "CALMING HER" not providing LEADERSHIP. You are SAD. You only see her "sweetness" not her power and the need for a leader.
"poor girl"
"trying to calm her"
"devestated"
"fearful imprint stage, [excuses] have to retrain"
She isn't doing this at daycare because she is a natural FOLLOWER and when she's with you she has nobody to follow. YOUR ENERGY goes down the leash.
Get rid of that trainer and get a behaviorist to EVALUATE YOU and HER.
She is a timebomb and needs an EXPERIENCED confident owner or you REALLY REALLY REALLY need to re-tool your family energy but I have to be honest, it rarely works once it's this bad because YOU will always be second guessing yourself and it's just not in your nature to behave like a confident secure leader perhaps.
DO NOT EUTH THIS DOG. 90% CHANCE SHE'D BE FINE BEING REHABILITATED BY SOMEONE HOWEVER, HER PATH WILL LIKELY BE LONG AND SHE'LL ALWAYS NEED TO BE "LABELED" INDEFINITELY.
Then again, if she lived with someone who was a good fit she may SWITCH immediately. Hard to say.
And for GOODNESS SAKES don't "comfort" her..."It's ok it's ok blah blah blah". Tell her NO. Calmly and confidently but STAY AWAY FROM OTHER PEOPLE AND DOGS UNTIL YOU CAN GET HER THE HELP SHE NEEDS.
Lastly, I'd bet money that if you went IN the daycare in the group she would be the dog YOU know and not the dog THEY KNOW.
It's you. But it would take me a LONG TIME to help you. Start with no sleeping on the bed or furniture and not going out the door, or through doorways FIRST she must wait to be invited. No charging the door, no barking at the window, no nosing guests, NO GUARDING YOU!, no leaning on people, no suspicious paranoid behavior. She should be able to go sit down off to the side, and THAT'S THE END OF IT. (when people come in)
Do NOT ALLOW PEOPLE TO LOOK AT HER, TALK TO HER, OR TOUCH HER! IGNORE. Let her be invisible but NOT HIDING.
ALL dogs need to be submissive to humans for goodness sakes. Until they can write checks or drive the car. It simply means not DOMINANT and getting THEIR WAY instead of you. It takes NO TALKING it's all energy.
Last edited by runswithscissors; 08-05-2014 at 04:24 PM..
Thank you all for your feedback, sorry for the delay in responding...
I would like to clarify a couple of things...not that it changes the bottom line but I see some of the language I used spurred some very strong responses, consider this a testament to the fact that I have read many forums, but never posted in one...(I won`t respond to each of your individual comments, I feel like it would take me days to figure that out )
First: The issues and incidents that we encountered with Holly truly came on fast, it was like she turned one and a switch flipped, and the nipping, growling, and the situation at the beach, really all happened within weeks (a month tops), this was not an ongoing problem that we had just been avoiding. Up until that point she was in fact a very calm and sweet, we had her around other dogs, people, even small kids, Holly grew up knowing that she had to sit calmly before we would allow people to pet her, she had several dogs in the neighborhood who she was friendly with...
Second: I am also sorry for the language that inevitably comes from an emotional place...the devastation I was referring to, was really a sense of failure, and about ego, it is very hard being in a situation like that, failing the dog, and anyone else involved. We had never pinned our dog down before, it was a last resort to that situation, this was not a skill that was taught to us, it was a reaction to a very heated moment. We also did not calm our dog in that moment in the sense of soothing her or telling her it was ok, it was more giving her a chance to come down from that intensity...because yes bullies go from 0-60 in a flash.
We also understand the feedback from people who feel strongly about putting a dog who has bit ever down. We do not think that it is acceptable behavior from a dog, and as owners we take responsibility for our dog, and her behavior.
To update and hopefully answer some of your questions:
Holly came home with us just after 11 weeks, she was spayed too young(a policy of the rescue organization) she came from a litter of 12, and was with the litter and her mother (who was rescued from a kill shelter while pregnant) up until a few days before we brought her home. It is hard to see any wrong doing on their part in the way of handling, we met the organizers, as well as the foster family who had Holly and her litter mate in the days leading up to the adoption and we appreciate what they do for the dogs they rescue.
I appreciated the feedback around various medical issues that can provoke some behavioral changes, Holly had UT issues as a pup and came off antibiotics around this time as well...so we will certainly take this advice and follow up again for further screening with the vet.
Holly has been working with a behaviorist 3 days a week (full days at the center) they feel she is making great progress, and though she is still going through some things, they are socializing her with their pack, and people in controlled settings every day...Holly no longer goes to daycare, as we felt she needed more hands on and attentive time with very skilled handlers. We also work as a family with the behaviorist, with home visits, and weekly pack walks, so that we can become more confident owners...
To those who commented about us being the problem...we agree, that is why we are working on it. While we do not believe that being a bully breed defines Holly as an aggressive dog, we know and have always know that she would be a strong dog, and that we hold extra responsibility to be even better dog owners. I wish I could say that controlling the energy I share with my dog came naturally to me, but I am still learning, its not easy being cool, calm and assertive at all times, but I am working on it every day, controlling your emotions is one thing, controlling your energy is a bigger task for sure.
To those who asked us not to expose others to our dog. Again we dont disagree, she has alot of trust to re-earn, we have no problems asking strangers not to approach us as we are in training, and its a tall order where we live because, everyone thinks they have the best dogs, so dogs are always off leash with owners nowhere in site, sigh)We do however believe she is worth the effort; she is NEVER off leash, not even in our yard, she is on leash and supervised outside at all times..when out of the yard always on a short leash. While she is exposed to more crowded situations with the behaviorist, we on our own avoid them, no dog parks, beaches etc. We have to be creative about getting her enough exercise, and plan out our routes for walks accordingly. We have not seen another incident like this one, though she still uses her bully voice from time to time, so we are working on that too. We also know that she may ultimately need to be muzzled, and we don`t love the idea, however we respect owners of big strong dogs who keep them muzzled in crowds (though I am sure they are not all trouble dogs, I think it is courteous to the people around them). We are greatful too that our girl seems to be settling around the 40lb mark and the vet does not see alot of growth left in her aside from filling out a little as she gets older, i applaud to those of you with your big strong bully mixes, its no small accomplishment to raise a great dog.
To those of you who have faced anything similar and worked through it, congratulations we understand that it is a long process and a lot of dedication, and to those who have had to euthanize a furry friend, we are sorry for you loss, and respect your decision.
Again thank you all for your feedback, comments (even the tough ones) and suggestions... I will continue to update on her progress...
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Try walking the dog alone and not with the others
But it would take me a LONG TIME to help you. Start with no sleeping on the bed or furniture and not going out the door, or through doorways FIRST she must wait to be invited. No charging the door, no barking at the window, no nosing guests, NO GUARDING YOU!, no leaning on people, no suspicious paranoid behavior. She should be able to go sit down off to the side, and THAT'S THE END OF IT. (when people come in)
)
