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Old 01-21-2008, 11:00 PM
 
Location: St. Augustine, Florida
1,930 posts, read 9,324,553 times
Reputation: 1020

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Quote:
Originally Posted by APBT_Samara View Post
We should become writers? We are both great at making long but thought out post. At least IMO.
Haha! I agree! Neither of us have been on CD very long, but I'd bet that we have typed more than a lot of people that have been here way longer than us! I can't help it, I just start typing and next thing I know I have pretty much written a novel! lol!

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Okay I wasn't sure what you meant. Some people say no dog should be outside period. One same person also said dogs shouldn't do weight pull. Because dogs are not meant to work, they are meant to be our pets. (I always thought many pets enjoyed exercise) Also said we shouldn't spay/neuter because its inhumane. Oh well.

Most Pit Bulls bond pretty close to humans. That is true. I think it does depend on the individual dog though. Some dogs bred for work (Pit Bulls included) do want companionship and attention but still don't make the best family pets. Many Pits are high energy, even those as pets, they can be exercised and played with and be pretty content. They have a period of calm or at least are relaxed. Others are almost non stop. They need a major outlet and are not suited for the average family. Even with training, walks, play that isn't enough for them. They need something that can keep them content even without the human interaction because most humans can't play 5hrs straight, they need something to play with, to do.
Very true. The way the dog is bred/ raised does have a lot to do with it. Each individual dog is different, and I need to remember that. Different dogs of the same breed can be polar opposites, it all just depends on how the dog was bred and how, by who and where the dog was raised. I tend to think of how my dogs are and just say that's how APBTs are. That is true, to a point, but I need to remember that not all APBTs are like my APBTs.

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Degree of time left alone will also depend on each dog too. I know that Nediva would rather be outside for periods in the day then in here. Although she enjoys being underfoot (I say that affectionately), she would be happier dog getting some outdoor alone time. She likes our outdoor time together but also likes her time of just watching her surrounding and lazing about. Especially after her cool down walks, she'll rather sit outside for a bit then come back in with me.
Brooklyn likes to just go lay out in the yard too. As you know, we take our dogs for their walks and we will take them to the park, the beach and to people's homes with us whenever we can, but they never spend very much time in the yard. I will take them outside and hook them on their run to go potty, and as soon as they are done they will run to the porch door and wait for me to take them off the run. But every now and then Brooklyn will do his thing and then jut lay down in the grass. Sometimes he just wants to relax in the sun and watch the birds.

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I understand your concerns. I guess we all have different experiences. Its actually one of the things I love about forums, people from everywhere with different experience coming together. The cable is more likely to hurt the dog then a chain, some dogs have nearly had to have amputations from a cable tangled around them. A fouled up chain could possibly cause the same but its so much easier with the cable like material. So its something people need to watch if they cable their dog unattended. After its been "broken in" there is less chance unless it because kinked/bent.
I didn't even think about that. That does make sense though. Right now, since we are renting, we don't have a big yard and we don't have a fenced in yard, so we have never had to worry about finding something that we know we can leave our dogs on, unattended. We only use the run for a few minutes each day, and like I said, we are always right there, so our dogs couldn't hurt themselves, you know. I didn't think about it that way though, that does make sense.

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I've never seen a chain get rusty/gross unless it wasn't made out of the best material or the dog was left in standing water.

The same would go with being caked in mud. If the dog is chained in a muddy area that would happen, if the chain is in a nice spot that shouldn't be a problem. I know not everyone has the same yards and some places it rains a lot. We mostly have drought here, which is one of the farmers biggest complaints.

People do put too heavy of chains on their dog. They should be trying to put the smallest but most secure, not the largest my dog is the baddest type chain. If its proof chain it doesn't need to be all that big at all. The main thing is really the hardware used to connect that chain that most often wears/breaks. It is best to of course check that stuff over. Heavy chains can cause problems to their neck, people think Pit Bulls are strong so it won't bother them but their necks are not meant to carry heavy weight. It is especially worse when they are a puppy, idiots who put chains so heavy the pup can barely even walk. Hardly lift its head trying to drag the chain. What is the point in that, it certainly doesn't need a heavy chain nor does it make that tiny pup look tough.

That is a good point in the summer heat. The dog should IMO have an ample amount of shade and most the chain would be cool. Metal holds heat pretty good and if the chain is out in that hot sun I'd imagine it would feel pretty bad on the dog.
I think the fact that we have just never used chains, or never needed to use chains, and the fact that a lot of people do use chains fr the wrong reasons, is why I am/ was so against them. I never really thought about it much. I do see what you're saying though, and after reading this pot and your last post, I really don't see a problem with using chains. As long as they are used properly of course.


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Do what works best for our own dogs. I do mean BEST too, not what is just being lazy or for selfish reasons. I had a friend who had an older female (she was like 7yr APBT) he had used chains before, but decided he would try the cable. She came to him at that age and had mostly been in a kennel before. He put her on the cable and she just tangled herself, so he went back to using a chain from then on to put her out. I think he did that in the best interest of her and not for reasons of looking tough (especially being it was a light chain and she isn't a hyper dog when tied out or pulling on it all the time), he even used the smaller type stake and she never pulled it out.
I agree with you completely!

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The proper chain is just as secure as a proper kennel. Pits are great escape artist (well many of them). Using a secure chain while unattended I don't find to be irresponsible that is just me of course. If you don't agree that is cool. No two people can agree 100% everything. Most of the stuff people use to tie out Pits (securely) isn't what you find at your local pet store, its a lot different and not nearly as cheap. In tying them out attended I still believe that a fence is necessary. Again that JMO, but it keeps people out of your yard and away from your dog while you can't be watching. Letting them loose in the yard isn't a good idea for reason you mentioned. I think the same thing with kennels too, even if its a secure kennel I still feel the person should have a fence around it. People can mess with your dog a lot easier in a kennel sitting in an open yard, but with a fence around it that protects your dog unattended in a kennel. This is especially true when you live in a populated area, people can mess with your dog, tease them, steal them, poison them, all the easier without a fence. You should get that on video with Brooklyn, that'd be awesome to see. Maybe put him in a jumping competition, I bet he'd do well. Some of mine can jump 7.5ft fence, others can jump 6ft kennel and some can climb out, which isn't as impressive. Pits are just so smart and determined its amazing.
Like I said, after reading your posts and learning more about this, I don't see anything wrong with chains. I just have never used them and have never had any reason to learn anything about them. I have also never used a kennel, so I don't know about them either. Runs and crates I know about, but chains and kennel, not so much! lol!

Oh, and I definitely agree that you need to have a fenced in yard if your dog will ever be outside unattended. The reason our dogs are never outside unattended when they are on their runs is because we don't have a fence. I don't know if you were here when I posted about this, but we are pretty sure someone poisoned Brooklyn when we first moved in to where we are now! Long story short, we use to have his run set up to where he could reach the edge of our yard, and we would take him for his walks around the same block all the time. He would always chew on sticks, grass, bugs, etc, so when we saw him walking around chewing on stuff, it wasn't anything new. But then Brooklyn started to get really, really sick. He had the runs, he was throwing up all over the place, he got dehydrated from all of that, and he didn't want to eat. We took him to the vet and shorty after that he got better. Then, it started again. Someone told me about people poisoning dogs, they said that they would put some kind of poison in little pieces of food and put them where the dog they wanted to poison would get them. We searched our yard, where Brooklyn had been chewing on stuff and didn't really find much, but we decided to move his run and to start walking him in a different area. A few days after being in a different part of the yard, farther away from our neighbors yard, and going for walks in a different area, he got better and hasn't had a problem since! So, I don't know if our neighbors were putting stuff in our yard, or if someone on a street that we use to walk him on was putting something in the edge of their yard, or what, but we have been really careful since then. We later found out that someone in Palm Coast, where we live, had something against "pit bulls" and they were killing them! So, I don't know? But yeah, I agree that you need a fence to keep people from messing with, hurting, or taking your dog.

Here's a picture of Brooklyn jumping to get the stick off of our roof. It was 8ft 4ins to the stick from the ground.



I actually do have a video of it on my cell phone, but I don't have the cable to plug my phone into the computer to upload it. I'll have to get one so I can send you the video. We were amazed that he could do that! lol! We were just playing around one day, and we really didn't think he'd be able to get the stick!

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Oh I totally agree. Most people its a cheap and easy way of keeping their "pet". That is one thing I hate to see, dogs on short chains where they can't run around and enjoy having space, they are not there to just take some time out of the day enjoying being outside, they can barely move anywhere and walk in their own crap/urine. They have never been off the chain in their entire lives. They get entangled and even injured because of all the junk around them.

I know one person which complained because the law says the chain must be at least 4ft in length. I was like taken aback, how is he complaining, he wants them on a shorter chain then that? I have a 5ft chain, I use that when a dog is there like 2 minutes. It was left over after I cut the chain for connecting window weights. Example of use when I take a dog out to pull and I need to go fetch the sled out of the out building or bring more weights. I hook them there, go get what I need, unhook them. Its no different then hooking a lead somewhere in the spur of the moment. I don't want them to run about with a harness on so they stay there for a couple minutes while I get what we need to work. I think even if he is using the required 4ft that still isn't right, especially for a long length of time. At least 10ft should be minimum 15ft or 20ft are what I'd call appropriate depending on activity level and size of dog.
That's what I have a problem with, people that chain their pets up with short and/ or heavy chains, to make their pets look tough or because they are too lazy to even try anything else! And I agree that a 4ft chain is way too short! I can see leaving a dog on a shorter chain like that for a few minutes, but no longer than that! I think it's unbelievable that it would actually be legal to use a 4ft chain! Just like with the small crate you mentioned in your last post, if I were to see a dog on a 4ft chain I'd call animal services thinking that it would be illegal to have a dog on a chain that short! That's really sad!

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I just don't like how some people don't seem to realize the real problem of neglect. They seem to think a person who puts a chain on their dog is cruel and thats the only people neglecting dogs. I know some people are wiser then this, others seem oblivious though. Especially in cites, while there are some dogs tied out or fenced in yards neglected outside, there are many inside dogs suffering bad neglect. Well at least in the NYC and KCMO areas I know that to be true. Dogs kept in rooms or basements skinny, sick, no socialization and living in their own waste. It is so gross. What I don't understand even more is the ones which get to live with their humans (not locked in a room/basement) but are starved. Its one thing (and just as wrong) to starve a dog in a basement, but sadly its out of sight out of mind, I get that, but when the dog is right by you most the time? When you eat dinner and the dog is laying on the floor? How do these people just NOT feed the dog. Something isn't right with them mentally. It is like starving your kid thats right by you while you stuff your face.
I'm definitely with you there! I just don't understand people! I watch all of the different animal cops shows on Animal Planet all of the time, and it makes me sick to see what so many animals go through! It breaks my heart to leave my dogs in their crates for a few hours when we go somewhere and can't take them with us! I can't even imagine watching my dogs starve to death on the floor next to me as I'm eating, or sitting in a tiny crate full of their own urine and feces all day everyday! I can't even fit that in my head! How can people do that?! How can people like that sleep at night?!

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Yes, that was my point. I hope it wasn't confusing. Chain link kennels are not good for most Pits, some are fine in them but they are too easy to get out. Even for other breeds (at least a few Huskies I know). While digging and climbing are the easiest routes mine just RUN straight through them. The tie wires are only so strong. The others grab with their teeth and pull in. Again popping the wires which hold them together. Some can break/bent/snap the chain link, most chain link kennels are made from the cheapest chain link. Like 11 gauge or so, our regular yard 6ft chain link fencing is 9 gauge commercial.
Oh! lol! I guess I didn't read your post right. Sorry.

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I got done with walking about 4:00, well more training and indoor playing after. I was only able to walk a few but its still too cold, it was 23 without any wind so I thought I'd give it a try. Other then that the dogs are just going to have to hang. I know they hate it. Samara is being so stubborn too. I put her in her crate for a few minutes, that settled her but she is funny. When I tell her no she has a look in her eyes like she wants to test me. She looks like "do you really mean that". She will STOP what she is doing and look at me like that and then attempt to do it again. Earlier today she didn't want to do any commands. Well I didn't force her through it because it'd be useless, maybe even a step backwards. This is a real tricky breed. Getting inside exercise is so not the same thing. They can use the flirtpole inside and chase a toy across the room, but its pretty dual I think for them and me after awhile.
Haha! That's what Destiny does! It's like all you have to do is look in her eyes and you can tell exactly what she's thinking! lol!

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The only problem is if animal services comes and they have a kennel license AC can't do anything about it. If it were against the laws commercial breeders and pet stores wouldn't have dogs in tiny cubes. That is why they don't want to amend the law. Which stinks. Those breeders are a step above puppy mills, well really to me they ARE puppy mills even if they are not ones with matted dogs and waste filled crates its still a mill. They are responsible for a huge surplus of pets adding to the over population and often times have health or temperament problems.

If dogs get daily attention that is one thing and a good thing, but then I still don't see a need to breed all those dogs. It is great when the kennels actually hire someone to care for the dogs, that was more common some time ago but with the current state of overpopulation I don't see a need to have 200 breeding dogs even if they get excellent care and attention everyday. It just seems weird to me
I can't even go into pet stores that sell dogs and cats. It kills me to see them all in their tiny little cages crying and scratching at the side every time someone walks by! That would be like putting a nice juicy steak right next to a starving dog that can't get to it! I don't see how so many people can treat animals the way they do. I will never understand it.
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Old 01-22-2008, 02:01 PM
 
253 posts, read 948,269 times
Reputation: 121
Default WOW Pitbull mommie

WOW,,,WHAT A JUMP FOR BROOKLYN!!!!!!! WHEN SHE KNOWS WHAT SHE WANTS SHE'LL FIGURE OUT A WAY TO GET IT!
Very good comments from you and the others about caging, fencing and chaining. Before the fence, I used the steel posts you pound with the big barbs to grab the ground and stay put, then I secured a strong cable, so it ran just above the ground, attached them to that. That gave them a little more running room at the time.
Our Boyz stay in a fenced yard now. Oliver controls the cookies distributed at "cookie worthy moments", which are all the time in his mind. If he goes out and pees, if Sam does the same, when I shower.........
Have to tell that boy to lay down and forget it.
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Old 01-22-2008, 04:18 PM
 
462 posts, read 717,729 times
Reputation: 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by nanwalt3 View Post
WOW,,,WHAT A JUMP FOR BROOKLYN!!!!!!! WHEN SHE KNOWS WHAT SHE WANTS SHE'LL FIGURE OUT A WAY TO GET IT!
Very good comments from you and the others about caging, fencing and chaining. Before the fence, I used the steel posts you pound with the big barbs to grab the ground and stay put, then I secured a strong cable, so it ran just above the ground, attached them to that. That gave them a little more running room at the time.
Our Boyz stay in a fenced yard now. Oliver controls the cookies distributed at "cookie worthy moments", which are all the time in his mind. If he goes out and pees, if Sam does the same, when I shower.........
Have to tell that boy to lay down and forget it.


Wow brooklyn is amazing. THats incredible that she has that much determination to get that stick. What an incredible dog.
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Old 01-22-2008, 06:27 PM
 
Location: Jax
8,204 posts, read 31,559,842 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by APBT_Samara View Post
Ok I watched. I don't see a point to this.

1) The dog was on an adequate sized chain. Not too heavy but not too small, depending on the chain. Some chains wear thin fast and are very soft, they break at the link, if it is proof chain then the chain won't break quickly.

2) I saw a lock which connected a length of chain together. Perhaps this is a cheap chain and the dog wore a part thin and it broke. In turn they connected it with a padlock as that is what was handy? At any rate it usually isn't highly recommended because the dog will break the lock out side ways. The lock was pretty big too I did notice that. However I don't see how it is relevant to the attack. Unless I missed the point of your post all together.

I saw a leather color connect to a snap which had a connector to a chain. If that holds that dog I'm surprised. That connector used can easily be accidentally opened because it pushes in to open. Those snaps don't last long as the spring wears out and they open to where they come off the dogs collar or the swivel end wears out to where it is still snapped to the dogs collar but of course in 2 pieces.

Maybe not the best set up, but shouldn't be related to the dog biting the girls nose.

3) Whether the dog is neutered or not it shouldn't have bit someone.

I don't make excuses for the dog. He might have really bit her on accident while she was playing and moved just right into him if she was down on his level. Something like what Chic mentioned. If so that sucks for both her and the dog. If not then there still isn't an excuse.

Sorry for the late response, I just "found" this post again.

I posted the link because I think the visual adds a dimension to the possible "why" of the dog's action.

Samara, you mentioned that you chain your dogs. We all do what we feel is best for our own dogs and what we are capable of doing with the resources we have (time, money, etc.), so I am not debating the chaining of your dogs - I'm sure your dogs are exercised off-chain, etc. But the dog in question was on a chain that in my eyes was too heavy, a lighter gauge chain would have sufficed - it's a dog, not a lion. I don't think I'm alone in seeing the chain gauge as excessive.

The padlock was large, sharp, and in direct contact with the dog's chest/leg area...how many times a day does a sharp corner of that padlock swing hard against the dog? Also, why is the dog padlocked? Is he left unsupervised outside on a chain and there is concern of theft? Or is the owner piecing together a makeshift chain, as you suggested? Are we to believe the owner unlocks the padlock each day so the dog can enjoy some off-chain time, or did they lose the key long ago?

As you said, not an ideal setup.

As for neutering the dog, a dog that is neutered tends to be more calm as they are not dealing with hormones on the same level as a non-neutered dog. This could potentially have played a role as well, it's worth noting.

Hopefully that clarifies my point in posting the link.
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Old 01-22-2008, 07:21 PM
 
Location: St. Augustine, Florida
1,930 posts, read 9,324,553 times
Reputation: 1020
Quote:
Originally Posted by nanwalt3 View Post
WOW,,,WHAT A JUMP FOR BROOKLYN!!!!!!! WHEN SHE KNOWS WHAT SHE WANTS SHE'LL FIGURE OUT A WAY TO GET IT!
Very good comments from you and the others about caging, fencing and chaining. Before the fence, I used the steel posts you pound with the big barbs to grab the ground and stay put, then I secured a strong cable, so it ran just above the ground, attached them to that. That gave them a little more running room at the time.
Our Boyz stay in a fenced yard now. Oliver controls the cookies distributed at "cookie worthy moments", which are all the time in his mind. If he goes out and pees, if Sam does the same, when I shower.........
Have to tell that boy to lay down and forget it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harley_man View Post
Wow brooklyn is amazing. THats incredible that she has that much determination to get that stick. What an incredible dog.
We got him to do it a couple times after we realized he could do that, and sometimes he would jump, and sometimes he would kind of run up the wall! lol! It seemed like once he started to get tired he ran up the wall instead of jumping, but he loved that! I had to hold him back and try to keep him calm while my husband put the stick back on the roof after each time! lol! We haven't done it since then though, it was just those few times that day. I'm worried he might hurt himself if it's a regular thing.

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Old 01-23-2008, 04:32 AM
 
Location: The Great State of Arkansas
5,981 posts, read 15,898,310 times
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I see the purpose behind the link...look at it. First of all, the owner said his dog is in heat? Fascinating. It's an unneutered male. Shows me right there we don't have an intelligent owner. That dog is on a chain...all apologies to whomever in advance, but that is not an effective way to control your active DOG. Not your APBT, your DOG. If it's going to be an outside dog, for the love of pete put up a fence. With a padlock on the gate. I saw hay. I saw mud. I saw what appeared to be a food or water bucket. I saw a studded collar, which presents such a nice homey picture of the APBT. I didn't see adequate shelter. I don't see a tree for shade in the summer. I do hear the neighbor talk about "dogS", indicating there is more than one out there on a chain. I won't get into the chain fight with anyone, but I simply do not believe in it. Those are my beliefs, and much like others on this forum, I will not be swayed into thinking that's an okay thing to do. It's the very thing we are fighting. If you keep your dog on a chain, you're providing fodder for the media to show that these dogs can't be anything but vicious if it takes a tow truck chain to hold them back. Absurd.

Perhaps all of those things were there and the media simply chose to show what they wanted - meaning they could have chosen what to say as well. "Trauma". "Graphic". "Attack". "Investigation". "Without provocation". Gee, now we're all feeling mushy about the poor dog, aren't we? I'm not going to say it didn't happen exactly as presented. I'm not going to say it did....however, by virtue of misinformation and a few little doo-dads, the entire stereotypical appearance of the APBT has just been broadcast into hundreds of thousands of homes, and not everyone is sitting there dissecting the clip. And not everyone is waiting for the follow up story to hear how this really occurred. Did anyone hear the animal behaviorist? "how people interact with the dog, how the dog is raised, how the dog is treated"? There could be a sign. I don't condone a biting dog, but we simply do not know what happened. This dog could have gone grabby/snappy from lack of attention. It happens. Dogs that don't get to interact with their humans are generally more out of control when they get with people, sometimes in a good way and sometimes in a bad way.

The American public blindly swallowing what the media dishes out and not thinking for themselves is a huge portion of the problem - one of the others is an owner who possibly believes his male is in heat.
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Old 09-29-2008, 09:29 PM
 
3 posts, read 13,656 times
Reputation: 12
I think its quite outrageous how, most of the time, the only dog attacks that you hear about are those committed by "pit bulls." Out of the thousands of attacks a year the most reported and "newsworthy" are those made by "pit bulls." I think this is mostly because the news and most people want to have a villan dog. This is the breed that will kill your babys! Quick grab your pitchforks and torches! Riot the streets, hide your ankel biters! (note sarcasm). I know that some "pit bulls" do attack people, however, most of the reasons behind these attacks find humans at fault. For example, a dog or dogs were off leashes, people were ignoring their mothers warnings by "putting your face close to a strange dog, or the animal was abused or provoked. Honestly, how many ankel biters do people on this site know? How many have seen or been bitten by them? Finally, how many of those bites have been reported to the police or heard on the news? Also, labs are also not the perfect dog. Labrador puppy kills infant | HeraldTribune.com | Southwest Florida's Information Leader

In most "non-dangerous breeds" dog attacks has anyone noticed that the attacks are sluffed off. For example: 3-Year-Old Savaged by Labrador read the comments. Blaming it on the fact that it was the that the girl had the toy, and had taken it away from the dog. WHY SHOULD THAT MATTER! If that had been a "pit bull" it would have been deemed a vicious attacking mongrel. Why does this not "horrify" people? If "pit bulls" have a worse rap, why wouldnt a lab "horrify" the public more? If labradors are supposed to be a very good family dog? Oh and by the way I haven't posted a fraction of the attacks on humans by labradors either. Also, on the BSL comment, so you're saying you want people to have to move or have to give up their pets that have done nothing wrong? The problem with BSL's is the fact that everyone gets punished. Does that honestly seem fair to you? Not to mention the fact that it is NOT the dogs fault but the human who does not know the proper way to train and socialize their animal, OR watch their children. Scenario (this is completely made up): A recent trend seems to be happening (as follows). An African American male attacks a white female and she gets stabbed twice and almost dies. Her and her family goes through severe agony. Does that mean we should ban all African American people all together? NO! And as far as the thousands of "pit bulls" being put down each year because they are unwanted, is there any breed out there that isnt suffering the same fate?
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Old 09-29-2008, 09:33 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs,Co
40 posts, read 38,274 times
Reputation: 15
In the state of Colorado if you have a Pit bull they will take the mean dog.
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Old 09-30-2008, 01:06 PM
 
Location: Chicago suburb
702 posts, read 2,199,295 times
Reputation: 249
Toronto Humane Society | Top Stories (http://www.torontohumanesociety.com/newsandevents/stories/2008/08-08g.asp#0808g_cont - broken link)

After 15 years the Netherlands repealed its BSL stating it did not work. I am so glad that there are people out there willing to discuss this issue logically without getting wrapped up in the hype. I am saddened by the ignorance that is out there about this breed and try to do what I can to educate people. These dogs aren't for everyone that's for sure, but that can be said about all dogs.

I agree with the OP that Pitbulls aren't for the OP and I hope OP never gets one. These dogs should be with responsible owners who understand the responsibility we have when we own a pitbull. We know too well what we are up against and owning a PBT is not for people with thin skin or those who are novice dog owners (IMO). For those who are advocates of the breed I applaud and thank you for your efforts.
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Old 09-30-2008, 02:30 PM
 
Location: "The Sunshine State"
4,334 posts, read 11,931,073 times
Reputation: 3005
The dog's owner said his pet has never done anything like what it did to his 19-year-old live-in girlfriend. Neighbor William Kea agreed, saying he never saw the dog act aggressively. "I've seen him get off the collar and bark, but I've never seen him attack anyone," said Kea.

According to the police report, "The victim was playing with the canine when without provocation it snapped at her face and bit down on her nose. The bite caused the bridge of her nose to come completely off and hang off her face." QUOTE

I would like to know what the real story was here! FOR SOME REASON THE PITBULL IS ALWAYS TO BLAME.....I KNOW IN 99.9 PERCENT OF THE CASES IT IS THE OWNER!
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