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Old 07-23-2015, 08:19 AM
 
Location: Lake Country
1,961 posts, read 2,245,363 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dashdog View Post
I did read her third way training.

Jazz was by far the most difficult dog I ever had she had a severe fear of other dogs when I got her as a small puppy and she was by far the most intelligent dog I ever met. ( border collie X cattle dog) Intelligence in a dog can work for you but it can also work against you especially with a head strong dog. She was the puppy they say to avoid when getting a dog but she was with a rescue and I told myself you can give her a good home as she was very very sweet and very pretty too.

Yes there were days in that first year I felt maybe I had made a mistake but when I get a dog it is forever unless it is not best for the dog. There were even days I did not want to come home from work as it meant dealing with that difficult head strong puppy who would argue for hours with me when I tried correcting her.

Rather then do what too many do when they adopt such a dog and that is rehome it or even give it back I dug my heels in and told myself I could turn this puppy into a fantastic dog. It would take hard work but I could do it.

Thanks to Jazz I did take lots of training classes with different trainers. I did read lots of books on dog training and how to read dogs body language. In a way I tasted all the different training methods but decided to hold fast to the ones that felt right to me.I studied hard and she and I worked hard too.

The best day was when I took an agility seminar class with her I can not recall the ladies name but she was well known in the California agility world and she worked with many herding type dogs. After class she came up to me and said she thought I had an amazing dog and loved the way the two of us worked together. She also said that she felt Jazz was more like wild canines as she was not only intelligent but she was very clever. Jazz was not quite 2 at the time and having that woman tell me that made me so proud at how far the two of us had come and how we had become a team.

I was lucky to have shared my life with her for 14.5 years and feel glad that God entrusted that special dog to me. Dogs can teach us as much if not more then we teach them. Life with her taught me so much and I am for ever thankful to my old team mate. She was my once in a life time dog.I was blessed to have had such a dog.
Love your stories Dashdog.

Was that seminar presenter Karen Moureaux? Or Kathie Leggett? Or Nancy Gyes?
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Old 07-24-2015, 06:32 AM
 
1,727 posts, read 1,980,464 times
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A couple of questions for you all this morning; I will go first:

1) What were your first influences in deciding how to train your dog?

2) If your dog/s could talk, what would they say?

My answers:
1) I grew up in what used to be (1950's) a remote rural area of mid-state NY. As with many who lived in rural areas, we didn't "train" our dogs as such. They all had nice manners, but I don't remember any formal training process. I unfortunately DO remember my parents saying that the way to toilet train was to rub the dog's nose in it. My father had a friend who imported his GSDs from Germany. I remember them- beautiful dogs, but always fearful; we children were NEVER allowed to interact with his dogs and indeed rarely ever saw them. My mother on the other hand, had a friend who always adopted mutts, who clearly adored his dogs, treated them with kindness, and went into grieved deeply when they died. After my parents separated when I was 18, my mother always had a companion dog, pet-quality dachshunds that she was given by a breeder friend. It wasn't until I adopted my border collie at 42 that I became interested in training. At that time, clicker training was still on the fringes, and traditional training methods were the norm with the Monks of New Skete book and Wodehouse; there were probably others, but those are the ones that come immediately to mind. One of my clients at the time was a highly ranked internationally recognized conformation judge who regularly showed or judged at Westminster and other top venues. I remember that she and her husband were VERY old school, and in one shocking incident, her husband severely beat one of their intact dogs for marking.
One thing I remember very clearly from my childhood, is that my parents instilled very early on a healthy respect for our dogs and how to correctly interact with them.
These weren't conscious influences when I was looking at training my border collie, but they were certainly at work at some level of my sub-conscious. Shortly after I adopted my border collie, I was very fortunate to stumble across an excellent trainer/breeder who was using clicker training who taught me the basics. At the time, I scoffed at the idea of using a clicker, but did use a marker word "yes". That was my introduction to different non-traditional training methods.

2) If my dogs could talk- they would (and DO) say don't go to work, let's please go for a loooong walk, throw some balls, and have fun together. My one dog would say that he barks when people/mailman come to the house because it is his job, and pleeease throw more balls. My girl would say that she loves going to class and learning new stuff, but she wishes that we could spend more time practicing and working together. Oh, and also, that she wants me to know that she isn't in the least bit sorry for killing rabbits and other rodents because that is her job because she IS after all, a very doggy dog
Seriously, I hope my dogs would say that we have a pretty good life together. I suspect they would say that they wish I wouldn't get so stressed about work or so depressed about money because those things take away from our time together. Also that I spend too much time on the computer (!) or reading or cleaning house instead of playing and engaging with them. They would say they want to spend more time working and learning together, because they love our quality time together.

Last edited by twelvepaw; 07-24-2015 at 07:10 AM..
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Old 07-24-2015, 06:41 AM
 
1,727 posts, read 1,980,464 times
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Alright, I have to ask because nobody has commented on this: doesn't anybody think it is totally awesome that Ken Ramirez trained a flock of butterflies to swarm on cue????? Hint: it is in the links in my original post
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Old 07-24-2015, 09:17 AM
 
14,376 posts, read 18,320,068 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twelvepaw View Post
Alright, I have to ask because nobody has commented on this: doesn't anybody think it is totally awesome that Ken Ramirez trained a flock of butterflies to swarm on cue????? Hint: it is in the links in my original post
It's fascinating

My boss's 8-year-old daughter has trained her beta fish to respond to signals. I'm very impressed. But I did tell him that he wouldn't be able to avoid getting a dog for much longer, lol.
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Old 07-24-2015, 09:25 AM
 
14,376 posts, read 18,320,068 times
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Actually, I just wanted to post while I'm watching my new dog play with my roommate's dog and make a comment about training that is "too positive."

My roommate has dealt with scenarios in which amateur trainers teaching classes have informed the class that it was stressful to dogs if you used body pressure with them. As in, stepping into their space to get them to back up. Instead they would concoct convoluted scenarios with tunnels and boards to create chutes that would guide the dogs into backing up. My roommate felt this actually stressed the dog out more, as well as confusing and boring them. I can teach a dog to back up in 5 minutes - their style took weeks.

In any case, watching the dogs play this morning, I have seen them using body pressure and getting into each other's space as an invitation and to indicate what they wanted to do next - basically guiding the play. The other dog always responds enthusiastically or with his own suggestion, also delivered in the form of body pressure (or its inverse if he moves away). It's not stressful to get into the space of a happy and confident dog that is eager to know what you're going to do next.
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Old 07-24-2015, 01:30 PM
 
Location: Lake Country
1,961 posts, read 2,245,363 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JrzDefector View Post
Actually, I just wanted to post while I'm watching my new dog play with my roommate's dog and make a comment about training that is "too positive."

My roommate has dealt with scenarios in which amateur trainers teaching classes have informed the class that it was stressful to dogs if you used body pressure with them. As in, stepping into their space to get them to back up. Instead they would concoct convoluted scenarios with tunnels and boards to create chutes that would guide the dogs into backing up. My roommate felt this actually stressed the dog out more, as well as confusing and boring them. I can teach a dog to back up in 5 minutes - their style took weeks.

In any case, watching the dogs play this morning, I have seen them using body pressure and getting into each other's space as an invitation and to indicate what they wanted to do next - basically guiding the play. The other dog always responds enthusiastically or with his own suggestion, also delivered in the form of body pressure (or its inverse if he moves away). It's not stressful to get into the space of a happy and confident dog that is eager to know what you're going to do next.
Agreed.

I use body pressure often in the course of interacting with my dogs...every day certainly. And we agility handlers use body pressure all the time...at a distance, of course, but body pressure just the same. The pressure I use in both cases is nearly always "air" pressure. IOW, no touching occurs.

That said, body pressure can also be intimidating when used by dogs to communicate with each other...in certain situations that is the point. And, as you indirectly imply, when used by humans with dogs less confident or dogs unskilled in canine communication.
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Old 07-25-2015, 02:30 PM
 
Location: Santa Barbara CA
5,093 posts, read 12,563,499 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jumpindogs View Post
Love your stories Dashdog.

Was that seminar presenter Karen Moureaux? Or Kathie Leggett? Or Nancy Gyes?
No it was none of them. It was back in 1998 ad if I remember the lady did live in the So Calif area but I can not recall her name.
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Old 07-27-2015, 06:27 AM
 
Location: Lake Country
1,961 posts, read 2,245,363 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twelvepaw View Post
A couple of questions for you all this morning; I will go first:

1) What were your first influences in deciding how to train your dog?

2) If your dog/s could talk, what would they say?
1) Koehler and Monks of New Skete. Because at the time (1990) those were the most popular and/or recommended training books available. I quickly switched to Chris Bach's The Third Way after the training director at our local club yanked my Aussie off his feet as she demonstrated a proper sneak away. My next dog (1992) was trained completely off leash...pure joy for both of us! Positive training was a much better fit for my temperament and for how I viewed animals.

2) "WHY are you training THAT OTHER DOG when you could, and should, be training ME?!" "More squirrels and chippies please." "More food please." "I saw you grab that clicker. Let's PLAY!" "Those people/dogs should NOT be walking in front of our house!" "We're going to agility class? We're going to nosework class? OH BOY OH BOY OH BOY!!!" "Why is it so loud and crazy outside with those flashing lights, crashing sounds and icky sensations I am getting? Please make it stop." "I love how Daddy pets me."
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Old 07-27-2015, 06:32 AM
 
Location: Texas
44,256 posts, read 64,216,996 times
Reputation: 73924
I cheat.
I get a collie, they learn English, and we live happily together.

The potty training is the labor intensive part.

You can teach any trick in five minutes and with a handful of kibble.
Throw in a little practice to avoid resource guarding and work the paws, ears, tails, teeth, etc, so they don't mind being handled.

Last edited by stan4; 07-27-2015 at 06:42 AM..
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Old 07-27-2015, 08:05 AM
 
4,475 posts, read 6,669,501 times
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I dont train any dogs; dont believe in it. Id rather a dog just be a dog. Unfortunately after awhile i at times forget that my dog is a dog and not a human child of mine and, being an authoritarian, doesnt work out too well.
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