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Old 09-17-2015, 03:08 PM
 
13,658 posts, read 13,430,680 times
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There's a nationally franchised training program called Sit Means Sit (Home - Sit Means Sit). I'm somewhat (not very) active in the dog sports world and most of the trainers and dog people I've met completely deplore its methods, which inevitably involve something called an "e-collar." The company says it delivers electric "stimulation" while critics describe it as a shock collar. The company also describes its method as "attention-based" training.

I have never personally encountered anyone using their methods or any of the trainers that teach it. But I've seen one of the firm's trainers getting into it with more holistic trainers on a facebook page, with the claims that they've saved countless "difficult" dogs from euthanasia because of their methods.

Well, that's all well and good, I suppose, but another friend just posted about encountering a young puppy with a "Sit Means Sit" collar being walked down her street. That seems rather ridiculous.

I dunno - I've spent my life working with difficult dogs. Whether it's a shock or just "stimulation" (still not sure what that means...) I just feel this is an overly complicated approach to dog training and the opposite of positive reinforcement. I have high-energy, somewhat insane dogs. I exercise the bejesus out of them and achieve compliance with toys, treats and praise and the occasional squirt from a water bottle. If a dog is being obnoxious to another dog or too hyperactive (as in literally bouncing off the walls or tantruming) I will sometimes raise my voice to get their attention. I have never really had a problem with any of my dogs.

Heck, I'm not even opposed to use of a bona fide shock collar in certain situations, though I've never had to use one. When you're desperate to change a life-threatening behavior (like chasing deer or going after rattlers), I won't judge you for using whatever method works.

But it seems rather ridiculous to me to immediately start off using an electronic collar on a puppy or to use something so complicated as one's first choice for addressing a training issue. At the very least, I think such a tool could only justifiably be used when an extreme difficulty is encountered and certainly never as one's primary training tool.

I'm just curious if anyone has used this method or has encountered it before or had a personal experience with it. Even in the best possible light, it just seems overly complicated and counterintuitive to me.
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Old 09-17-2015, 03:54 PM
 
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Ive never tried them though I see them holding their classes around dog parks in town. I don't care if they use e-collars. Used properly they are a tool not a means of punishment. I'm always impressed when I see their class group of mostly pit/pit bull type dogs all in down position not moving an inch right next to the dog park with dogs barking, playing, running etc. They have some pretty impressive videos on YouTube.
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Old 09-17-2015, 06:20 PM
 
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I simply cannot imagine a situation where I would want to use a shock or "stimulation" collar on my dog or any other dog.
Do their methods work? Sure, on some dogs, but, for instance, put that collar on a soft dog with an owner who is trigger happy and you end up with a fearful shut down dog.

The only rationale I can see for using such a device is for owners who buy into the sales pitch, who have limited dog/dog training experience, and/or who aren't dog savvy.

Given the way that dogs learn and how horrible most people's timing is, there is the potential for great abuse with shock collars. Add to that the human tendency to repeat things thinking that if once is good then twice must be better, and you have a recipe for canine disaster.

We have a "trainer" here who puts shock collars on 8 week old puppies. It seriously breaks my heart.

I have no idea why people use or endorse e-collars/shock collars. A shock doesn't teach the dog anything. I prefer to teach my dogs, help them make good choices through a history of reinforcement, and have an engaged dog who loves to work and learn.

I am always looking for new training methods or techniques. There are an awful lot of proponents of various methods who have videos on youtube. I have yet to see a dog trained using a force based method, whether shock collar or just old school snap and jerk methods, who didn't exhibit fear-based behaviors, whether it was slinking, tail was tucked, head was down, anxious, etc.

We all have a choice in how we train our dogs- I cannot understand why anyone would choose a shock collar over non-force based methods.
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Old 09-17-2015, 06:31 PM
 
13,658 posts, read 13,430,680 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twelvepaw View Post
I simply cannot imagine a situation where I would want to use a shock or "stimulation" collar on my dog or any other dog.
Do their methods work? Sure, on some dogs, but, for instance, put that collar on a soft dog with an owner who is trigger happy and you end up with a fearful shut down dog.

The only rationale I can see for using such a device is for owners who buy into the sales pitch, who have limited dog/dog training experience, and/or who aren't dog savvy.

Given the way that dogs learn and how horrible most people's timing is, there is the potential for great abuse with shock collars. Add to that the human tendency to repeat things thinking that if once is good then twice must be better, and you have a recipe for canine disaster.

We have a "trainer" here who puts shock collars on 8 week old puppies. It seriously breaks my heart.

I have no idea why people use or endorse e-collars/shock collars. A shock doesn't teach the dog anything. I prefer to teach my dogs, help them make good choices through a history of reinforcement, and have an engaged dog who loves to work and learn.

I am always looking for new training methods or techniques. There are an awful lot of proponents of various methods who have videos on youtube. I have yet to see a dog trained using a force based method, whether shock collar or just old school snap and jerk methods, who didn't exhibit fear-based behaviors, whether it was slinking, tail was tucked, head was down, anxious, etc.

We all have a choice in how we train our dogs- I cannot understand why anyone would choose a shock collar over non-force based methods.

Well, they market themselves very aggressively. They apparently have demos at community events pretty regularly and set up displays where their dogs (wearing e-collars) are sitting obediently on platforms and not moving for extended periods of time. It's very impressive to people who know nothing about dogs. My friends like to have their dogs sit and stay next to the booth (without any kind of e-collar, of course) while they walk across over to a nearby concession stand and order hot dogs. Ticks the trainers off to no end.
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Old 09-18-2015, 02:10 PM
 
Location: North Western NJ
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fear and negative reinforcement training NEVER works in the long term, it "sovles" problems temporarily (the dog is to afraid of "stimulation" to screw up, but eventually, like any brain conditioned with pain like that they snap and eventually end up with bigger problems...
but we live in a world of "we want results now that we don't have to work hard at"
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Old 09-18-2015, 03:39 PM
 
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why dont you just start a thread about e-collars.
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Old 09-19-2015, 05:59 PM
 
Location: West Virginia
12,370 posts, read 31,254,274 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dltordj View Post
why dont you just start a thread about e-collars.
There Are threads on here about e-collars.
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Old 09-19-2015, 06:35 PM
 
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All the op wanted to do is complain about e-collars and make sure the same as usual people let everyone else know how uneducated they think others are about dog training.
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Old 09-19-2015, 08:33 PM
 
13,658 posts, read 13,430,680 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dltordj View Post
All the op wanted to do is complain about e-collars and make sure the same as usual people let everyone else know how uneducated they think others are about dog training.
ok
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Old 09-20-2015, 07:19 AM
 
1,706 posts, read 1,199,401 times
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We need to keep having these discussions- repeat or not.

Warning and synopsis- the following link originally showed a dog being trained using Sit means Sit methods. The video being analyzed has since been removed by Fred Hassan and is no longer available, but the commentary below is still useful and descriptive of what is happening.

This picture of a frightened cowering dog is extremely disturbing, and unfortunately quite typical for this situation. I fail to see how anybody can call this anything but abuse, and/or justify this training method. Please, somebody tell me what this dog is learning other than that the person the dog trusts and is bonded with is causing him great confusion, pain, and stress. So unnecessary. Breaks my heart....

Shock Training Session Video Analysis - eileenanddogseileenanddogs

Last edited by twelvepaw; 09-20-2015 at 07:40 AM..
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