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So my Catahoula will become irritated with my younger dog and snarl and snap at him very abruptly. This results in the puppy shrieking and cringeing. Immediately after that, my Houla gently sniffs at his brother's face and body and gets very quiet. What is going on there?
I've actually seen him apologize to another fairly young puppy after he bit her (she startled him by shoving her face into the water bucket beside him when he was drinking - they typically played together very nicely despite the fact that she was in an obnoxious stage) - afterwards he cringed and crouched next to her and licked at her face in a way that can only be described as submissive. This doesn't look like that.
He is highly tolerant of young puppies (as well as very small dogs - he was exquisitely courteous to my mother's yappy little Pomeranian), but once they hit the 8-10 month range, he isn't quite as easygoing. He goes back to being easygoing once they are out of that range. It's kind of weird how specific he is. When he gets stroppy with another dog at the dog park, I always ask their age, and it's always in that range.
He's very dominant with my younger dog, but the younger dog is super-submissive and the Houla is also a fairly submissive dog in a pack situation. One of the doggy daycares he went to raved about how "dog intelligent" he was and how he could get any dog to play. I don't see that so much though because he's in "working" mode when he's around me - he wants me to tell him what to do and to throw the ball for him to chase it. I'm told this is typical for a Catahoula when their person is around.
The younger dog is very playful and was in that 10-month range when I got him. They mostly get along, but don't play together as much as I'd hoped they would. I know the younger dog is a little intimidated, but I also suspect my Catahoula doesn't know how to be nonthreatening with a dog that's THAT submissive.
The Houla generally respects the other dog's space when it comes to treats and meal times (they get fed on opposite ends of the room), and they both sleep with me in the bed without squabbling for the most part.
I'm trying to figure out their relationship, so I can foster a more play-friendly atmosphere for them.
So my Catahoula will become irritated with my younger dog and snarl and snap at him very abruptly. This results in the puppy shrieking and cringeing. Immediately after that, my Houla gently sniffs at his brother's face and body and gets very quiet. What is going on there?
This isn't bullying. It is entirely normal for one dog to correct another dog regardless of age, but in this case it sounds like your catahoula is very gently schooling your pup in proper etiquette. You don't provide a context, but pup has done something un-cool, maybe just a body language issue, or maybe pup got too rambunctious, or nippy, or your catahoula just wanted to be left alone; whatever it was, your dog made it very clear in no uncertain words that the pup had overstepped the boundaries of proper dog behavior, something like this:
HEY . KNOCK . IT . OFF . NOW!
i'msorryi'msorryi'mjustapuppyididn'tmeananythingpl easedon'thurtme.
It's ok little dude, I love ya, but you gotta stop that nonsense, we good?
This is how dogs learn to be good citizens. Puppies come with a "puppy license" that wears off at about 6-7 months old. While older dogs are largely tolerant of a lot of puppy nonsense, once pup hits 6 months old, all bets are off and the older dog will start to teach the younger dog what behavior is acceptable, from when to just knock it off and leave me alone, to uh oh I'm gonna tell Dad, to hey nice dogs don't do that, etc.
You have a front row seat to this education and I would encourage you to let you catahoula do his job without intervention. Corrections will often escalate if the pup doesn't learn his lesson the first time, and CAN look quite vicious, often with the older dog pinning the younger dog and shaking them, but it is normally done and over very fast without any bloodshed or trauma.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JrzDefector
He's very dominant with my younger dog, but the younger dog is super-submissive and the Houla is also a fairly submissive dog in a pack situation. One of the doggy daycares he went to raved about how "dog intelligent" he was and how he could get any dog to play. I don't see that so much though because he's in "working" mode when he's around me - he wants me to tell him what to do and to throw the ball for him to chase it. I'm told this is typical for a Catahoula when their person is around.
The younger dog is very playful and was in that 10-month range when I got him. They mostly get along, but don't play together as much as I'd hoped they would. I know the younger dog is a little intimidated, but I also suspect my Catahoula doesn't know how to be nonthreatening with a dog that's THAT submissive.
The Houla generally respects the other dog's space when it comes to treats and meal times (they get fed on opposite ends of the room), and they both sleep with me in the bed without squabbling for the most part.
I'm trying to figure out their relationship, so I can foster a more play-friendly atmosphere for them.
I would lose the terms dominant and submissive as they are really only applicable in terms of resources, and then the d/s roles are fluid and ever-changing; relative to resources like favorite places to sleep, getting attention, toys, etc I would let your catahoula teach your pup that he doesn't just get everything, and that life isn't fair in terms of who gets what, and how to read those situations. It sounds like your catahoula is a confident well-balanced dog who is able to adapt to different situations. Your younger dog is still finding his place in your household and in the world at large. As well, pup will constantly be testing testing testing other dogs, what he can get away with in different social situations (different canine and human social situations), and what boundaries he can push with you.
In terms of making sure that play is balanced and fair- from what you say, your catahoula sounds like a pretty well-balanced dog, so my guess is that when they play, he moderates his play with the pup so that there is give and take between them. In good dog play, the older, larger, more mature dog should "self-handicap" themselves so that they aren't letting play get too heated, rambunctious, or one-sided. Play should be fluid with give and take, stops and starts, and often corrections as the older dog teaches the young dog that enough is enough or hey time for a break. As long as the play is fluid, and body language is loose and wiggly, I wouldn't worry. If you see repeated body slams, one dog moving forward on another dog while the other dog is trying to get away, watch to be sure that tails are up and not tucked, then you need to interrupt play by either distracting them and asking them to sit for instance or just walk between them to help them cool things off.
All dogs are different of course, but the long tug toys can help to induce play between dogs- the 3-4 foot length encourages one dog to grab one end and the other dog to chase and tug. Different dogs have different play styles though, e.g. boxers vs. border collies, and not all dogs play styles are compatible e.g. boxers and border collies may have difficulties finding a happy medium of play style they each enjoy. I would let your two dogs sort out what play works for them. They might never find that common ground they each enjoy, but it is also possible that as their relationship grows they will fall into a comfortable subtle play routine. I wouldn't try to force play, let them find their play groove.
"When teaching self control, dogs are careful to make the lessons appropriate for the puppy's age. Before the puppy reaches 16-18 weeks of age, normal dogs are amazingly tolerant of puppy behavior. The careful observer will note a slow, subtle increase in what older dogs begin expecting from the puppy, but the overall impression is that a puppy can get away with almost anything. And the truth is, he can, thanks to the invisible (at least to humans!) but very real "puppy permit." What the puppy doesn't yet know is this: there's an expiration date on that puppy permit. When it expires, the rules can change quite quickly. Behavior that was acceptable one day may be completely unacceptable the next. With my own dogs, I've seen a puppy's permit expire over the course of a single morning. Just before breakfast, a four month old puppy galloped over one of my older dogs - nothing more than a dirty look and a grunt was what she got for this behavior. Later that day, the puppy did the same thing and was shocked when the adult dog leaped up fiercely snarling and barking in displeasure. After a few repetitions over the next few days, the puppy learned to politely walk around - not over! - other dogs."
Last edited by twelvepaw; 12-17-2015 at 06:20 AM..
They seem to go in fits and starts with the playing, and much of the time, they seem to need me there to get it started. They LOOOOOVE to play fight on my lap. Consider that one is 50 pounds and the other is about 30 pounds. I figure it promotes bonding, so I don't interrupt unless they get too rough.
I just think the big guy might be over-correcting the little guy on occasion. Part of the issue is that when playing, the little guy sometimes just surrenders the toy when the big guy actually is asking to play. Also, the little guy is kind of uneasy about running out the door after the big guy, because he sometimes gets snarled at - I end up having to coax him out the door. I guess they'll sort it out eventually. They really do seem to get along fine for the most part.
Your young dog does need you to step in if the catahoula starts to snark or bully him. You know your dogs, and if you feel your catahoula is being obnoxious, then look at the context of those snarks and look at ways to change that dynamic. Options might be to redirect them when you see a snark in the making, just move your body between them and in doing so put a bit of pressure on your catahoula, then ask both dogs to do something, or if you see a snark always happening in a certain context then figure out an alternate behavior to ask them to do that will change the context and prevent the snark.
For instance, about going out the door- don't give your catahoula the opportunity to be a turd, but instead use the door as an opportunity to teach impulse control; put going out on cue- make it a fun happy game. You take control of the situation and teach them how you expect them to behave. Because your little guy is already a little hesitant to go out the door, work with him alone first to get him up to speed, then do the exercise with both dogs.
When they are going out, ask them to sit (or down) in front of the door (and stay if you use a stay cue). Open the door. Release dog A to go out the door, then a few seconds later release dog B. No treats- the reward is the release to go out. Alternate which dog you let go out the door first, and each time wait a few seconds to a minute before you release the second dog. It is ok if they are amped up to go out, but they still have to keep their butt on the floor until you release them to go out. They will learn to watch YOU instead of paying attention to each other which should help mitigate the snarkiness at the door. Alternating which dog goes out first will prevent any unintentional reinforcement of which one is "top" dog, and randomizing the amount of time you keep them in a sit before you release them will keep them guessing and focused on you.
Work with your young dog to build his confidence- whatever exercises you think will help him whether agility, nose work, rally-o, or obedience. I suspect that as he gets more confident the issue with play will work itself out- with a little guidance and direction from you of course.
Your young dog does need you to step in if the catahoula starts to snark or bully him. You know your dogs, and if you feel your catahoula is being obnoxious, then look at the context of those snarks and look at ways to change that dynamic. Options might be to redirect them when you see a snark in the making, just move your body between them and in doing so put a bit of pressure on your catahoula, then ask both dogs to do something, or if you see a snark always happening in a certain context then figure out an alternate behavior to ask them to do that will change the context and prevent the snark.
For instance, about going out the door- don't give your catahoula the opportunity to be a turd, but instead use the door as an opportunity to teach impulse control; put going out on cue- make it a fun happy game. You take control of the situation and teach them how you expect them to behave. Because your little guy is already a little hesitant to go out the door, work with him alone first to get him up to speed, then do the exercise with both dogs.
When they are going out, ask them to sit (or down) in front of the door (and stay if you use a stay cue). Open the door. Release dog A to go out the door, then a few seconds later release dog B. No treats- the reward is the release to go out. Alternate which dog you let go out the door first, and each time wait a few seconds to a minute before you release the second dog. It is ok if they are amped up to go out, but they still have to keep their butt on the floor until you release them to go out. They will learn to watch YOU instead of paying attention to each other which should help mitigate the snarkiness at the door. Alternating which dog goes out first will prevent any unintentional reinforcement of which one is "top" dog, and randomizing the amount of time you keep them in a sit before you release them will keep them guessing and focused on you.
Work with your young dog to build his confidence- whatever exercises you think will help him whether agility, nose work, rally-o, or obedience. I suspect that as he gets more confident the issue with play will work itself out- with a little guidance and direction from you of course.
I've already been trying that game, actually - just need to get more diligent about it. During the day when I'm working from home, I'm just trying to get back to my desk. I'll try to incorporate that more often though.
Thanks!
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