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Old 03-22-2017, 05:18 PM
 
124 posts, read 67,370 times
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I guess I don't understand what has been said about a deaf person needing a service dog. My uncle had a miss fortune at the age of 2 & went deaf. The woman he married was deaf at birth. Their kids were born with no hearing problems. I totally understand the service dog need.
By the way my uncle was the 1st deaf USPS mail carrier in the state of Wisconsin. He recently passed. We are so proud of him.
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Old 03-22-2017, 07:47 PM
 
13,408 posts, read 6,709,802 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldhag1 View Post
You take the piece of paper with you to one of those already scheduled appointments. You hand the paper to the receptionist, nurse, or doctor and say, "I also need this filled out, please." For a service dog to be legitimate "medical equipment" some medical professional needs to have recommended it, just like getting a blood glucose reader or blood pressure machine covered by insurance requires a prescription. People seem to figure out how to find the time to get their doctor to sign a form for handicapped parking space tags, this should be considered no different. For Heaven's sake, if you are already investing 5-6 hours to see the doctor, invest 10 more minutes.

As a general rule, blantant over-the-top hyperbole weakens a person's case in a debate because it makes the other person have a tendency to dismiss whatever else they say as equally ridiculous.

Who said anyone was proposing denying anyone healthcare? Except in very, very rare cases, service animals are not healthcare, they are something that improves the quality of the disabled person's life. If I don't have one of my medications I will die within about 48 hours, if I don't have my cane (or at times wheelchair) my life will be absolutely miserable but, barring an unusual catastrophe, I'll live. The two are not of equal importance and pretending they are would cheapen the seriousness or urgency of having access to the medication. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I need the cane to retrieve the medication and a glass of water, but if someone sits the medication within reach I can get it in my body, even without the water. Quality of life is important, and it shouldn't be dismissed, but to act like someone is proposing to let you wilt away and die because they want to regulate something you will still be able to obtain is ridiculous.
No. A Dr. cannot certify a service animal, lol. You want for all Drs to now know how to evaluate whether a dog is well-behaved enough and does the task(s) required?

A Dr can sign for an ESA, but not a service dog.
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Old 03-22-2017, 07:49 PM
 
13,408 posts, read 6,709,802 times
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Originally Posted by mjaynes288 View Post
HUD has put out a statement that landlords can deny service dogs if the dogs breed would cause their insurance costs to go up. They do need to make a good faith effort and check around with other insurance companies but if they can't find the same coverage for the same price that accepts the breed they can deny the request as unreasonable.

The last rules change added the fact the service dog must be house trained. Business owners can ask dogs that are not house trained to leave and if it happens on more than one occasion they can ban a specific dog from the store. Handlers are liable for any damages their dog does so I would charge them for any damaged products.
Are you sure that applies to service dogs? I know it does for ESAs but my understanding is no one anywhere per Federal Law can deny a SERVICE dog. It's like denying a wheelchair under the law. It's not a pet - it's medical equipment.
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Old 03-22-2017, 08:50 PM
 
Location: My beloved Bluegrass
14,735 posts, read 10,636,267 times
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Originally Posted by jencam View Post
No. A Dr. cannot certify a service animal, lol. You want for all Drs to now know how to evaluate whether a dog is well-behaved enough and does the task(s) required?

A Dr can sign for an ESA, but not a service dog.
No, the would be an asinine suggestion. The doctor can evaluate and certify that the person needs a service dog; it's just like they aren't qualified to evaluate if a handicapped person's car is suitable but they are qualified to sign that the person needs a handicapped tag.

And, correct, the issue is there is zero requirement for verification by a medical professional that a person needs a service dog. Matter of fact, it's against the law to ask for any kind of proof.
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Old 03-22-2017, 08:55 PM
 
13,408 posts, read 6,709,802 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldhag1 View Post
No, the would be an asinine suggestion. The doctor can evaluate and certify that the person needs a service dog; it's just like they aren't qualified to evaluate if a handicapped person's car is suitable but they are qualified to sign that the person needs a handicapped tag.

And, correct, the issue is there is zero requirement for verification by a medical professional that a person needs a service dog. Matter of fact, it's against the law to ask for any kind of proof.
You've got it all backwards. Let's say my Dr tomorrow writes a note saying I need a service dog. (And he would, I used to have a service dog)

That makes no difference - I still can't take my current (untrained) dog wherever I want - what good would that do?

The point is people taking pets around that are not trained as Service dogs.

The comparison to a car makes no sense.
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Old 03-22-2017, 09:04 PM
 
122 posts, read 77,557 times
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Here is a link to a page that links to a pdf of the HUD letter on breeds and insurance (I don't know how to make links smaller and the direct link to the pdf is rediculous) Can a landlord refuse a service dog based on breed? | Service Dog Central

Service dogs are not actually medical equipment anywhere but your tax return. A service dog is a service dog and being accompanied by a service dog is a reasonable accommodation. Service dog maybe denied due to a direct threat, fundamental alteration, or undue burden. A service dog can be barred from areas of a hospital that are sterile because the germs they carry pose a direct threat. It would be a fundamental alteration to require a photographer to take a picture with your service dog in it if they do not photograph dogs (they would still be required to let the service dog in the studio). It is an undue burden for a landlord to pay more for insurance due to a service dog of a blacklisted breed.
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Old 03-22-2017, 09:10 PM
 
Location: My beloved Bluegrass
14,735 posts, read 10,636,267 times
Reputation: 19913
Quote:
Originally Posted by jencam View Post
Are you sure that applies to service dogs? I know it does for ESAs but my understanding is no one anywhere per Federal Law can deny a SERVICE dog. It's like denying a wheelchair under the law. It's not a pet - it's medical equipment.
It falls under the "reasonable accommodations" category. If the landlord's insurance will not cover a specific breed or insuring that breed would come at excessive cost that is no longer considered reasonable. Public housing is not allowed to restrict breeds.
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Old 03-22-2017, 09:24 PM
 
13,408 posts, read 6,709,802 times
Reputation: 12875
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjaynes288 View Post
Here is a link to a page that links to a pdf of the HUD letter on breeds and insurance (I don't know how to make links smaller and the direct link to the pdf is rediculous) Can a landlord refuse a service dog based on breed? | Service Dog Central

Service dogs are not actually medical equipment anywhere but your tax return. A service dog is a service dog and being accompanied by a service dog is a reasonable accommodation. Service dog maybe denied due to a direct threat, fundamental alteration, or undue burden. A service dog can be barred from areas of a hospital that are sterile because the germs they carry pose a direct threat. It would be a fundamental alteration to require a photographer to take a picture with your service dog in it if they do not photograph dogs (they would still be required to let the service dog in the studio). It is an undue burden for a landlord to pay more for insurance due to a service dog of a blacklisted breed.
OK, thanks. I mis-remembered that only applies to ESAs.
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Old 03-22-2017, 09:39 PM
 
Location: My beloved Bluegrass
14,735 posts, read 10,636,267 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jencam View Post
You've got it all backwards. Let's say my Dr tomorrow writes a note saying I need a service dog. (And he would, I used to have a service dog)

That makes no difference - I still can't take my current (untrained) dog wherever I want - what good would that do?

The point is people taking pets around that are not trained as Service dogs.

The comparison to a car makes no sense.
Sigh..... you jumped into the middle of a conversation. Please note the below bolded.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldhag1 View Post
When the "service dog" snaps or snarls at anyone coming within range of them I think it is safe to assume they aren't a legitimate service animal. This would not be an issue if the dog had a government issued service animal license.

In at least one other country the animal must pass a onetime test, who trained it is immaterial. Yes, that will probably come with a fee, but so do handicapped parking tags. Plus, the government can set limits on the fees and/or have provisions for income based fees.

I do agree, however, people will be a bit more hesitant handing falsified documents to a government entity than some ordinary landlord, especially if doing so comes with hefty fines for the person handing over the papers, along with rules about who qualifies to sign the medical forms similar to those associated with handicapped parking tags.
Your use of a service animal, like many things, does impact other people. They may be allergic to dogs, they may be terrified of dogs, they may be terrified of dog germs, or they may strongly feel dogs only belong outdoors. If you have a legitimate need and a specifically trained dog, the DOJ has decided that your need to have that service animals overrides whatever objections they have, and most people do not disagree with that concept. What they disagree with is the abuse of the privledge that has been created by the "2 question only, no proof whatsoever" policy. I have a neighbor who is totally guilty of this, about the only place she doesn't try to take her cute little fluffy "service dog" that has "occasional accidents once or twice a day" is to doctor appointments. Gee, aren't I awful for being skeptical.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldhag1 View Post
Combine trips, that simple. Most disabled people go to the doctor once a year, filling out the forms should be part of the appointment. You got the dog somehow, fill out the forms then, that should be able to be a one time thing per microchipped dog. In my area to get handicapped rates on public transportation you have to have a special card renewed every X number of years which has similar requirements to getting a handicapped plate. It requires a form filled out by a doctor, get the service dog paper filled out then. I get what you are saying about the frustration of jumping through one more hoop but you are demanding that society do something many object to, some who may even be medically negatively impacted your service animal. It is not unreasonable to say that there are requirements of proof tied to forcing others to forgo their wants/needs to accommodate you.

How are you planning on determining that someone has a fake service dog in order to fine them? Currently it is specifically against regulatory laws to ask for proof. Yes, you can asked if I have a disability that requires a service animal, but you can't even ask how. Yes, you can ask what tasks my alleged service animal does, but you can't make me prove it. So...
Skeptical person: "Do you have a disability that requires a service animal?"
Me: "Yes."
Skeptical person: "What tasks is he trained to perform?"
Me: "He senses seizures" or "He can tell if I have low blood sugar"

It is immaterial that I don't have a disability or that the dog barely managed to be housebroken, you can't question me. I can lie through my teeth and everyone just has to suck it up until my dog actually bites at someone or pees on the floor.
The only way to tide this ridiculousness is to require a government issued service dog license that has a picture of the dog and the name of the person who is being assisted. It should be free or on a sliding scale fee.

More stringent rules and regulations in reference to service animals are coming, it's just a matter of when. The only real question is how to best mitigate the burden for the disabled impacted. You can thank all the unscrupulous people who want don't want to leave their precious Fido home for the nessessity of this extra bureaucratic hoop.
It does make sense. A doctor should have to fill out a form that the person needs a service animal that can do XYZ, consider it along the lines of writing a prescription for medical equipment. The service animal in question should be tested by a government approved source to verify the dog can indeed do XYZ. It can be a one time thing and the results included on their microchip. The person needing the service animal can take their doctor's "prescription" for a service animal and the dog's passing certificate to the same place driver's licenses are issued so they can receive a service animal license with a picture of the dog on it. They can show that license to anyone who questions their legitimacy or clip it in the dog's vest or collar. One of the advantages this does for the disabled person is that they will no longer have to explain what the dog can do. I have always thought that was in a way an invasion of privacy because it can indicate a person's medical problem that they may have rather not shared.
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Old 03-22-2017, 10:48 PM
 
34 posts, read 13,619 times
Reputation: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by jencam View Post
The comparison to a car makes no sense.
I'm not comparing the dog to the car. I'm comparing people's reactions. People love to guess who has disabilities and who does not based SOLELY on looks, and they think it's their civic duty or right to call people out and make trouble for them. It's obnoxious and it doesn't make life any easier for the people with disabilities.

Faking service dogs is wrong and hurts those with real disabilities. Just like parking in a disabled spot when you're not disabled hurts those with disabilities. BUt so does being one of those people who has to play the guessing game. That was my point :P
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