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Old 03-22-2017, 10:50 PM
 
34 posts, read 13,596 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldhag1 View Post
Sigh..... you jumped into the middle of a conversation. Please note the below bolded.


It does make sense. A doctor should have to fill out a form that the person needs a service animal that can do XYZ, consider it along the lines of writing a prescription for medical equipment. The service animal in question should be tested by a government approved source to verify the dog can indeed do XYZ. It can be a one time thing and the results included on their microchip. The person needing the service animal can take their doctor's "prescription" for a service animal and the dog's passing certificate to the same place driver's licenses are issued so they can receive a service animal license with a picture of the dog on it. They can show that license to anyone who questions their legitimacy or clip it in the dog's vest or collar. One of the advantages this does for the disabled person is that they will no longer have to explain what the dog can do. I have always thought that was in a way an invasion of privacy because it can indicate a person's medical problem that they may have rather not shared.

This is easier said than done imo...
Sure it's easy to see if a guide dog can guide or a hearing alert dog can alert, but there's other tasks that are harder to emulate in a controlled environment like a test.
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Old 03-22-2017, 10:59 PM
 
Location: My beloved Bluegrass
14,730 posts, read 10,622,245 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmc94 View Post
This is easier said than done imo...
Sure it's easy to see if a guide dog can guide or a hearing alert dog can alert, but there's other tasks that are harder to emulate in a controlled environment like a test.
I have faith there is someone out there who can figure out how to do it.
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Old 03-22-2017, 11:11 PM
 
13,408 posts, read 6,692,607 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldhag1 View Post
I have faith there is someone out there who can figure out how to do it.
like inducing a seizure so the dog can demonstrate that she detects it? Raise someone's insulin levels until they almost go into shock? Induce a panic attack for the dog to respond to?
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Old 03-22-2017, 11:24 PM
 
34 posts, read 13,596 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jencam View Post
like inducing a seizure so the dog can demonstrate that she detects it? Raise someone's insulin levels until they almost go into shock? Induce a panic attack for the dog to respond to?
exactly. like i get it's a big issue but it's just insane to me the hoops that people expect people with disabilities to have to jump through. I feel like the law (which is currently in place) that allows business owners to kick out service dogs (FAKE or REAL!) if they are being destructive or bothersome is more than enough

If it becomes blatanlty obvious that a dog or person is faking, they currently can get in a boatload of trouble. Anything extra is just doing more harm than good


(And I know someone is going to bring up the insurance issue...how about go after insurance providers then or put some laws in place offering protection for landlords who get caught in someone's service dog scam. Seems simpler)
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Old 03-23-2017, 07:27 AM
 
Location: My beloved Bluegrass
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmc94 View Post
exactly. like i get it's a big issue but it's just insane to me the hoops that people expect people with disabilities to have to jump through. I feel like the law (which is currently in place) that allows business owners to kick out service dogs (FAKE or REAL!) if they are being destructive or bothersome is more than enough
No, it does not take care of the problem, for one thing we wouldn't be having this discussion if it did. Most business owners are extremely hesitant to address a service dog situation short of the dog actually biting someone. Right now every state has laws about denying service dog access, some that can include some hefty penalties, up to $25,000. The most common fines seem to be $100, $500, or $1,000. But that is just money. Although I have never read of it happening, more than 3/4 of the states include provisions that include criminal charges that come with jail time, most 30 days but some a year, for interfering with a service dog doing their tasks. I'm sure that extreme of a legal response is reserved for actual physical harm to the animal or person, but still it's there. However, fear of any of the aforementioned isn't the main reason businesses bite their tongue.

The real, and prudent, reason most businesses just put up with it, including just quietly cleaning up "accidents" is fear of social media driven retaliation. Some person gets on Facebook and posts a "look what this mean business did to me" rant accompanied by a picture of their adorable dog and the place might as well go ahead and close their doors. By the time the business can even aware of it and attempts to address the claim it has already gone viral. Decades of community goodwill is already destroyed, even if it turns out it was a fake service dog, or iin the case I saw unfold an ESA, instead of a legitimate service animal. History has proven trying to explain that the dog was out of control will never work unless they have a video of the incident or a bunch of other patrons step forward to defend the business in the media and most won't.

No, it is not working in its current configuration. It's not an equal playing field.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmc94 View Post
If it becomes blatanlty obvious that a dog or person is faking, they currently can get in a boatload of trouble. Anything extra is just doing more harm than good
What boatload of trouble? Currently only 18 states have laws against false service animal claims, most of which involve a much smaller fine than a business incurs for refusing to let the animal on the business premises. Even in those states that do have some sort of consequence, that doesn't eliminate the problem of it being almost impossible to enforce because of the current DOJ guidance.
Quote:
Under the law that takes effect on Jan. 1, [2017] a person who misrepresents an ordinary dog as a service animal will face a $25 fine for a first offense; between $50 and $200 for a second offense; and between $100 and $500 for a third infraction.

There are likely to be problems, however, with enforcing the law. Since no certification is required, and because people aren’t forced to disclose their disability, there may be no way to successfully sniff out those that are abusing the system.

“The problem is there’s not a lot of teeth in it,” said Rep. Dianne Primavera, D-Broomfield, who sponsored the legislation last legislative session. “It’s a good first step in trying to make people aware that there are legitimate needs for these animals, but if there aren’t, they shouldn’t be misrepresenting them. At some point in time the legislation may need to be tweaked again.”
Basically, the only real trouble a person who has a fake service dog gets into is if their fake service dog attacks a legitimate service animal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmc94 View Post
(And I know someone is going to bring up the insurance issue...how about go after insurance providers then or put some laws in place offering protection for landlords who get caught in someone's service dog scam. Seems simpler)
Prevention is almost always less painful than the cure, except for, of course, a person trying to falsly categorize an animal. If insurance companies are forced to cover high risk, big payout dogs without being able to adjust premiums or deny coverage based on risk assessment everyone's premiums will go up. And I'm sorry, the taxpayers should not become liable for potentially millions in damages so someone can claim Fluffy the German Shepard is their emotional support dog. Plus, you are leaving out the lack of a pet deposit to help cover damages caused by the animal or pet rent to help cover the more extensive wear and tear an animal just naturally causes.
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Old 03-23-2017, 10:04 AM
 
Location: Watervliet, NY
4,250 posts, read 1,569,245 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldhag1 View Post
The doctor can evaluate and certify that the person needs a service dog
More like they can provide medical proof of a disability. In order for, say, a visually impaired person to receive services related to their impairment, they must provide proof that they fit the definition of legal blindness. Keep in mind that before a person receives a guide dog, they have to show that they are capable of independent travel using the white cane. That is a determination that a doctor can't make; only an orientation and mobility specialist has the expertise to make that decision.

Two of my exes are legally blind, so I watched them both go through having to show qualifications for services. Neither of them use guide dogs, but they have received services from the NY Commission for the Visually Impaired. One of them was on Section 8; I don't know if he still is. He also has a handicapped car placard.
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Old 03-23-2017, 11:34 AM
Status: "could've~would've~should've used 'have', not 'of'" (set 18 days ago)
 
Location: A Yankee in northeast TN
10,469 posts, read 14,312,551 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmc94 View Post
I'm not comparing the dog to the car. I'm comparing people's reactions. People love to guess who has disabilities and who does not based SOLELY on looks, and they think it's their civic duty or right to call people out and make trouble for them. It's obnoxious and it doesn't make life any easier for the people with disabilities.

Faking service dogs is wrong and hurts those with real disabilities. Just like parking in a disabled spot when you're not disabled hurts those with disabilities. BUt so does being one of those people who has to play the guessing game. That was my point :P
Right now there isn't much a business owner can do other than guess, but where I work it's based on actions. Of course by the time the dog has performed an unacceptable action it's too late. It's a PITA to say that you can only ask an owner to remove an animal AFTER it has caused a problem. If I see that your dog is whimpering, nervous, excitable, not being attentive to it's owner, wandering off leash away from it's owner I should be able to ask you to remove your dog at that point, before any problems can arise.
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Old 03-23-2017, 12:08 PM
 
15,734 posts, read 9,248,038 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dltordj View Post
I can easily distinguish a true service dog from one that isn't. Most people can, I think. You can slap a vest or whatever you want on the dog but when I see it dragging you around the store, barking, sniffing every person that walks by, stinky/dirty I know it's not a service dog.

The ADA or whoever needs to have a special tag with a I.d. number maybe even a scannable tag with chip?. A person needing confirmation of a service animal should be able to plug in the number on a website to verify the dog and handler.
The first step to any of this is to separate "service dog" from all the other garbage that people make up to allow them to take their dogs wherever they want to.
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Old 03-23-2017, 12:19 PM
 
15,734 posts, read 9,248,038 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bearded1 View Post
You would probably like my dog. I know, I know every pet owner things that but my dog really is well behaved. He's not a bother to anybody.
Funny, I heard this very thing from a woman with a tiny (about 4 pounds) dog a few weeks ago. I was getting out of my car with my own dog, and her dog dragged (yes, you read that right) her over toward me. She said her dog "wanted to say hi". I said my dog doesn't want to (I have a toy dog also). She ignored me and said that her dog "is a nice dog, and only wants to say hi". As soon as her dog got within a foot of mine, it lunged at my dog, snarling and snapping.

Bottom line, little fluffy didn't like it very much when my dog calmly pinned it to the ground, let go, walked behind me and stood there watching while I asked this woman why she said her dog was nice when it clearly was nasty.

You are right. Every pet owner thinks their dog is well behaved. Most are wrong. And all think they're the exception to the rules.
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Old 03-23-2017, 12:22 PM
 
15,734 posts, read 9,248,038 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRational View Post
I'm not saying anything of the sort.

If anything...I'm saying that bad laws and policies don't get respected.
As regards these "service animal only" laws/policies... they miss the mark.
This is why they will get ignored and/or circumvented.

Well intended as they might be, and in principle I generally support the LARGER objectives,
the actual on the ground real world effect is to discriminate against most other dogs.
That's all.
So you're saying that any laws you don't agree with can get "ignored" Hallelujah. There's some owners of fake service dogs I'd like to throat punch. Guess I can just do what I want. It's just disrespecting, not actual law breaking, apparently.
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