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Old 03-19-2017, 02:35 PM
 
Location: Watervliet, NY
4,240 posts, read 1,566,253 times
Reputation: 7796

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bearded1 View Post
I'm with Rational on this one. This shouldn't be considered a fraud. The real crime here is not allowing dogs into public places if they can handle it.
Too many owners are a very poor judge of what their dogs can handle. The number of times I have been jumped at while riding my bike on the public paths, IN SPITE OF giving warning that I am passing (from behind) and always giving lots of room, is full proof of that. Luckily for all, these dogs are leashed, but they are not trained to heel properly. Dogs that are not fully leashed trained DO NOT belong on multi-use paths with runners, cyclists, inline-skaters, anyone passing at a pace that will trigger thieir chase instinct. See, a service dog, OTOH, is trained to ignore that instinct when in a working mode. Therein lies why service dogs are allowed where pets are not.

That's one example. There are others.

It's called "liability," you might want to research that topic.
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Old 03-19-2017, 04:06 PM
 
Location: Lake Grove
2,753 posts, read 1,973,056 times
Reputation: 4459
Quote:
Originally Posted by DubbleT View Post
No, you can't ask for a demonstration, but you are allowed to ask what task the dog is trained for. TASK. The animal is trained for one or more SPECIFIC jobs.
So if the person with a hearing dog is obviously deaf, based on the large hearing aids worn, limited understanding of speech and their own speech is obviously limited, would that be enough for you? Obviously, the dog serves as ears for this deaf person, and alerts the deaf person to things they cannot hear by themselves because of deafness.
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Old 03-19-2017, 04:43 PM
 
13,408 posts, read 6,685,189 times
Reputation: 12875
Quote:
Originally Posted by DubbleT View Post
???
That is actually one of two questions that are legally allowed to be asked to ascertain if the dog is a service animal, per the ADA
A. In situations where it is not obvious that the dog is a service animal, staff may ask only two specific questions: (1) is the dog a service animal required because of a disability? and (2) what work or task has the dog been trained to perform? Staff are not allowed to request any documentation for the dog, require that the dog demonstrate its task, or inquire about the nature of the person's disability

https://www.ada.gov/regs2010/service_animal_qa.html
Not random people. The owner or manager or employee of the establishment. I was saying random people should not do it (but they DO!)
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Old 03-19-2017, 05:24 PM
 
13,408 posts, read 6,685,189 times
Reputation: 12875
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bearded1 View Post
My dog is well behaved and likes to tag along on errands. He gets lonely if I leave him alone. Is there really so much harm in a little white lie? It's not like I'm parking in a handicapped space. I would never do that because a disabled person might actually need it. I also would not take my dog into a establishment that only allows one service animal at a time. That would potentionally be a nuisance to a disabled person who needs access to it.
Doesn't bother me in the least, but that little white lie is a federal crime and it does make it harder for people with legit service dogs to have everyone that wants to bring their dog everywhere holding theirs out to be a service dog.
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Old 03-19-2017, 07:50 PM
Status: "could've~would've~should've used 'have', not 'of'" (set 16 days ago)
 
Location: A Yankee in northeast TN
10,456 posts, read 14,303,163 times
Reputation: 23200
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zen88 View Post
So if the person with a hearing dog is obviously deaf, based on the large hearing aids worn, limited understanding of speech and their own speech is obviously limited, would that be enough for you? Obviously, the dog serves as ears for this deaf person, and alerts the deaf person to things they cannot hear by themselves because of deafness.
Jeez, the questions are allowed when it's not obvious it's a service animal, no need to bring up ridiculous scenarios like asking if a seeing eye dog is a service animal either
Quote:
Originally Posted by jencam View Post
Not random people. The owner or manager or employee of the establishment. I was saying random people should not do it (but they DO!)
OK, random people asking is a little bit weird and out of line
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Old 03-19-2017, 08:49 PM
 
Location: Hawaii/Alabama
1,699 posts, read 3,166,732 times
Reputation: 4412
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldhag1 View Post
THIS is what I want for the US. I want special service dog tags, which require government oversight, just like we have handicap plates. I have zero objection to service dogs but pretend service dogs annoy the crap out of me. This only two questions with zero verification policy we have here is begging for abuse - and people are doing it in spades.
People with handicaps have enough hoops we have to jump through with so many things and one more Dr. appointment and yet one more trip to a government office. It is hard enough to get out for necessary trips out of the house and waiting to prove once again that we are disabled.

I know that it is simply too much to ask for able bodied people to act like decent human beings, but I think that
people with fake SDs should be fined.
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Old 03-19-2017, 08:56 PM
 
Location: Cochise county, AZ
4,962 posts, read 3,452,717 times
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Another thing about service dogs - they are trained to eat at specific times (at least my brother's were) so their digestive tracts were on schedule & there would not be an accident while they were at work. Big issue.
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Old 03-20-2017, 07:25 AM
 
Location: My beloved Bluegrass
14,724 posts, read 10,616,557 times
Reputation: 19896
Quote:
Originally Posted by melaniej65 View Post
People with handicaps have enough hoops we have to jump through with so many things and one more Dr. appointment and yet one more trip to a government office. It is hard enough to get out for necessary trips out of the house and waiting to prove once again that we are disabled.
Combine trips, that simple. Most disabled people go to the doctor once a year, filling out the forms should be part of the appointment. You got the dog somehow, fill out the forms then, that should be able to be a one time thing per microchipped dog. In my area to get handicapped rates on public transportation you have to have a special card renewed every X number of years which has similar requirements to getting a handicapped plate. It requires a form filled out by a doctor, get the service dog paper filled out then. I get what you are saying about the frustration of jumping through one more hoop but you are demanding that society do something many object to, some who may even be medically negatively impacted your service animal. It is not unreasonable to say that there are requirements of proof tied to forcing others to forgo their wants/needs to accommodate you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by melaniej65 View Post
I know that it is simply too much to ask for able bodied people to act like decent human beings, but I think that people with fake SDs should be fined.
How are you planning on determining that someone has a fake service dog in order to fine them? Currently it is specifically against regulatory laws to ask for proof. Yes, you can asked if I have a disability that requires a service animal, but you can't even ask how. Yes, you can ask what tasks my alleged service animal does, but you can't make me prove it. So...
Skeptical person: "Do you have a disability that requires a service animal?"
Me: "Yes."
Skeptical person: "What tasks is he trained to perform?"
Me: "He senses seizures" or "He can tell if I have low blood sugar"

It is immaterial that I don't have a disability or that the dog barely managed to be housebroken, you can't question me. I can lie through my teeth and everyone just has to suck it up until my dog actually bites at someone or pees on the floor.
The only way to tide this ridiculousness is to require a government issued service dog license that has a picture of the dog and the name of the person who is being assisted. It should be free or on a sliding scale fee.

More stringent rules and regulations in reference to service animals are coming, it's just a matter of when. The only real question is how to best mitigate the burden for the disabled impacted. You can thank all the unscrupulous people who want don't want to leave their precious Fido home for the nessessity of this extra bureaucratic hoop.
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Old 03-20-2017, 07:54 AM
 
Location: Wonderland
44,688 posts, read 36,118,702 times
Reputation: 63246
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby Snacks View Post
I think people are judgmental about too many things that are none of their concern. So you think that the person on SS disability isn't "really" disabled. Or the person using the SNAP card in front of you in line isn't buying the food they "should" be buying. Or the mom and baby don't "deserve" to have WIC because she has an iPhone. Or the service dog isn't "really" a service dog because the dog doesn't look like one, the person doesn't appear to be disabled, or you just think they're faking. Bottom line: it's not my business what other people do. It's impossible for me and most people to tell if a service dog is real or if another person is disabled. Don't assume you have x-ray vision and magical insight into the person's life and the dog accompanying the person. The dog may indeed be a service dog even if it doesn't appear to be. Even if it isn't, it's up to others to do the right thing and I can't control their behavior. I have my own problems to deal with.

I have two jacked up Achilles tendons. I no longer use a handicap placard but I did for a few years off and on because I had surgery on both ankles back to back. The thing is, once I was out of the casts and boots, I looked perfectly "normal." And news flash - when both feet are jacked up, YOU CAN'T EVEN LIMP. So I'm sure I looked totally "fine" to people who watched me get out of my vehicle and walk into the grocery store and I'm sure that on occasion someone muttered under their breath, "See, that woman right there has no business using that handicapped placard - she's abusing the system!"

What they didn't know was that I was in considerable pain and that by the time I got done with grocery shopping, both feet would be so swollen I'd have to take my shoes off in the car on the way home.

That being said, I quit using the placard before the official "expiration date" because eventually I didn't need it. And it would have been terrible for me to alter that placard so I could get some choice parking spots. And against the law.

I don't even blink twice when I see people with service animals - UNLESS their animal is not well trained/well behaved (I was subject to a poorly behaved service animal on a recent flight so they definitely do exist, legit or not). That being said, I also don't blink twice when I see someone fishing in the nearby Sabine River. It's not my job, but it is the game warden's job to check to see if they have a fishing license. I don't begrudge the game warden that right or responsibility. And if there's a way to determine whether or not a service animal is licensed as one, then law enforcement can worry about it and SHOULD worry about it.

That's why I pay taxes.
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Old 03-20-2017, 02:38 PM
 
Location: Hawaii/Alabama
1,699 posts, read 3,166,732 times
Reputation: 4412
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldhag1 View Post
Combine trips, that simple. Most disabled people go to the doctor once a year, filling out the forms should be part of the appointment. You got the dog somehow, fill out the forms then, that should be able to be a one time thing per microchipped dog. In my area to get handicapped rates on public transportation you have to have a special card renewed every X number of years which has similar requirements to getting a handicapped plate. It requires a form filled out by a doctor, get the service dog paper filled out then. I get what you are saying about the frustration of jumping through one more hoop but you are demanding that society do something many object to, some who may even be medically negatively impacted your service animal. It is not unreasonable to say that there are requirements of proof tied to forcing others to forgo their wants/needs to accommodate you..
It is simply not as easy as "combine trips". Things don't come up at the same time - they just do not. Handicap placard, SSDI, medical equipment (wheelchairs, blind canes), RXs for personal items (diabetic, ostomy, catheters, stuff for wound care, etc). Then you have required trips for pump care, RXs for meds and too many other things that no matter how one tries to coordinate appointments they just never work out.

Then, for those who use handi-van transportation just ONE of these appointments can literally take 5-6 hours (and that is if the Dr. sees you on time).

So, the hoops are plentiful and not "simple". Most able bodied people would be crushed under the weight of what it takes to simply survive. But, hey maybe we will simply die if healthcare is denied to us' then no one needs to worry about Service Dogs.
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