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"I do recommend clicker training for fetch training and I will use it for that because it is such an excellent communication method."
This above quote is from another thread and I would love further explanation. Instead of taking that thread off on a tangent, I decided to start a new one.
I’ve had dogs whose propensity to retrieve ranged from a ball obsessed Sheltie to a “I don’t care what it is – I’m not going to get it” Corgi. My Poodles are somewhere in the middle.
The older Poodle had mild initial interest in play retrieving. For formal retrieving, I shaped her take and hold for a dumbbell and then had the darndest time trying to get a reliable go out and retrieve from her. Totally my fault as I had committed the dreaded “second command” mistake with her.
My younger boy’s initial play retrieve was pretty non-existent. Poodles are supposed to be retrievers! Shade Whitesel has been helping me tremendously with him. Worked with her in person last summer and am now taking on-line Denise Fenzi classes with her as an instructor. I currently use two identical toys and when he brings back toy 1 and drops it, I reward by throwing out toy 2.
So, I worked through older Poodle’s issue by getting real creative (no second commands ever – I run out and grab object or treat if she hesitates). And I haven’t started anything too formal with the younger one.
So, I kind of collect retrieve ideas for my doggy training toolbox. How do you use a clicker for retrieve training? Do others have any other ideas as well?
Backchaining. You shape by chaining different behaviors together. You break down the behavior you want into separate chunks, and teach each chunk of behavior separately. You teach the final step of the desired process first, then work your way backwards until you have put the entire process together creating a chain of linked behaviors for the dog. The dog will always drive towards completing the final step in the chain = putting the item into your hand (whether a bird, ball, or dumbbell).
Trying to explain in detail would be confusing. Here is Donna Hill explaining the process; even though this video is bird dog training, the process would be the same for any other retrieve.
You never want the dog to get the idea that they have the option of not performing the requested cue. You don't put a cue to the desired behavior until AFTER the dog is already willingly performing the behavior. And you never repeat a cue.
Having not done performance training properly for years, I'm not sure what I do would help. Sounds like you might be working on a UD, or something like that?
Aside from the toy/ tug obsessed GSD, who also understands find it perfectly.... the other 2 have learned to play tug too, and to trade up. Once they have tug figure out then they will retrieve and return, before thabhey looked at me like I was speaking Greek.
They will go look for anything now - using scent (from Nosework training, and as a daily thing we do). I getbthe best focus out of them while I make coffee. I tell them all 3 to find it and see what they bring to me as I am trying to wake up
Find it to them usually means finding something that they can associate as a toy, while the GSD will pick up what he finds. I could ask him to pick up a dumbbell and he'd hold it like he was made for the job. I didn't "teach" it formally, he just likes it. Like the Sheltie, it is FUN!
In the future I hope the other 2 will catch on, but it hasn't been a focus for me.
Long story short, when they bring anything back to you is it a game? Or are they past the part where it should be?
Maybe it has to be more fun, back to basics just a bit? Well you know..... most Poodles get it figured out too fast, they need the challenge, repetition is boring.... unlike Sheltie, Goldens, etc.... they have to think for themselves to try to understand the job.
My ACDs have needed to understand too, not just follow blindly. Once they understood Sit, they asked how fast, jump is hey ask how high? My Standard was like that too. He seemed to say sure just tell me why first.
Hopefully, someone has better input. My only thought is change it up to be what each individual dog wants most.
I had an obsessed fetch Sheltie. Hard to figure out the non obsessed.
This is an interesting question, and so specific. I hope others chime in on the options (non-forced retrieve). I don't mean to write a ridiculous post to your question, I fully understood it i just can't help With the mechanics of it, and you seem to be in touch with those who can help with that part.
I understand the video and that’s the very same method that I have used. My bad: When I said I shaped her take and hold, I was implying that the rest of her training followed the same approach.
I took Donna Hill’s “The Elusive Hand-Delivered Retrieve” at Denise Fenzi Academy several years ago. Not wanting to give all the goods out on this class; but, there is a module called “Problem Solving 10: Lack of Enthusiasm for the Overall Retrieve” which introduces the idea of you, as the handler, run out to retrieve the object in order to create competition and build drive. This worked beautifully in breaking us out of Second Command Purgatory and I wouldn’t have thought of it by watching some of these videos where all seems to go well.
What I meant in my original post is whether others also have some problem solving gems like the one above or a totally different way to teach a retrieve which involves a clicker that they would want to share.
Simplepeace,
Thank you for your reply and ideas. I’m glad you think this is an interesting question! You are correct: I am asking a very specific question and I find it’s not easy to be clear on what I’m talking about. I usually don’t bring questions like this up in a forum setting because of that difficulty. But, the quote at the beginning came from this forum and I found it intriguing. I love getting ideas from other people especially those that may not be coming from a formal Obedience background.
My older girl has her RAE and qualified for AKC Nationals the last three years. We will work on the Rally Master signs for next year’s trials; but for now, we are kind of in a holding pattern.
So, I am thinking of buttoning up the Open exercises with her and work towards our CDX at the fall trials.
It sounds like you know Standard Poodles! Yes, she gets bored and overthinks things easily and I have to really be mindful in my training. Not at all like the military mindset of a Sheltie.
Although the younger one was not a natural at retrieving an object, he’s much better and I’m actually not too worried about him. He is strongly food motivated, toy motivated, praise motivated, “It must be Wednesday” motivated, etc. You get the picture, it doesn’t take much to make him a happy boy.
Our retriever will RETRIEVE but he won't RELINQUISH. Damn dog tricked us at the SPCA when we were in the visiting room. Little 9 week old fur ball played a perfect game of fetch with us....first and last time that ever happened LOL. We love him anyway.
Only our 8yr old will actually go get something if you ask or go take something. 3 of the 4 will " fetch" but wont bring it back ( except the 8yr old). The male wont fetch, get, or care about toys.
I dont really remember how we taught her to be honest but i know we never used clickers. Now you tell her " go get your baby, take it to daddy" and she will.
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I had an obsessed fetch Sheltie. Hard to figure out the non obsessed.
