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Old 08-05-2017, 09:43 AM
 
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Please see my post #137 under the thread, "congestive heart failure - how does it end?"

I probably should have started a new thread, but I didn't.
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Old 08-05-2017, 10:33 AM
 
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I read there maybe you should start a thread. I'm not sure where to reply.

There are always going to be bad rescues and bad breeders. It takes research to find some one trustworthy.
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Old 08-05-2017, 12:06 PM
 
Location: Massachusetts
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Originally Posted by APBT_Samara View Post
I read there maybe you should start a thread. I'm not sure where to reply.

There are always going to be bad rescues and bad breeders. It takes research to find some one trustworthy.
Yes, but, as the OP's frustrations are illustrating, there is a lack of oversight in this country, especially where animal welfare is concerned.
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Old 08-05-2017, 12:20 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MarciaMarshaMarcia View Post
We adopted a little female chihuahua mix, black with white feet & a white chest blaze, in November 2008. There was no history, just that she was a stray running the streets. This was in California. She was healthy & perky. We were later told that she was probably also part Schipperke. All of our dogs have been rescues, because I detest breeders.
I am very much for rescued and promoting adoption. However, one must realize it is a bigger gamble to rescue a dog without a known genetic history rather than going to a good breeder. There are so many dogs without homes who deserve them regardless of problems, but it is more likely you are going to get a dog with health and/or behavior problems. As these dogs came from mills, bybs, accidental/random matings. So of course they were not bred to prevent health issues within the litter. They were bred for profit or out of ignorance to make cute pups.
Can you explain why you detest breeders? I mean are you saying ALL breeders or just the bad/puppy mill breeders? As it is only due to good breeders that people are able to get puppies and not have to suffer the heartache you did. Bad breeders don't always breed in ignorance either, some full well know their dog is genetically unhealthy, but don't care. While good breeders spend $100s on health testing and thoroughly research lines.
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Our daughter's childhood Pomeranian was a product of a breeder. He was born with patent ductus arteriosus, basically a hole in the heart caused by too much inbreeding. The breeder was going to euthanize him to keep the defect out of the breed...isn't that nice? My husband's co-worker took him, & my husband brought him home. He lived to be nearly 15 years old & had CHF most of his life, but didn't seem to know it, he was perky & playful until the last few weeks of his life, when he died peacefully in my arms. His only treatment for the CHF was liquid digoxin & a low dose of lasix twice daily.
PDA is when the vien conecting the arteries doesn't close after birth. What was the coefficient of inbreeding of your daughters Pomeranian? Why did you get a heavily inbred Pom? I am not judging you, but owners need to take responsibility. It is great you took this pup if he needed a home, but again you should have accepted the risk of problems that go with it.
The fact is that there is usually an opening which closes after birth, with PDA this doesn't happen. If the dog was very inbred as you say it could have some bearing, however it may not at all. Since this condition can be heavily influenced by the environment. Unless this dog had other genetic problems(or chromosome defect, which should have apparent) that relate to this issue I'd hardly correlate it to inbreeding. Exposure to toxins or developmental disruption in the womb can cause this issue, being born too early can also cause this defect. PDA also happens with human babies (a species rarely inbred), most commonly in premies. Though other defects can be linked or from high risk mom's, which still has little to do with inbreeding.
I'm not a Pom expert, so don't know the prevalence, but at least with dogs who have ungone cardiac test (likely by responsible breeders) less than 1% have had abnormal results (0.5%) so it is not a common issue I'm assuming. If this had been a Cav or the like, then I'd think genetic issue compounded by inbreeding.

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Two years ago, during a routine tooth cleaning, I was told she had a minor heart murmur, requiring no special care. In March of 2016, she developed a growth on her front leg that became infected & required surgery. At that time I was told that her heart murmur had greatly worsened & she had CHF...what? But, OK, my Pom lived with that most of his life. She started taking Vetmedin, aka pimobendan, a very expensive canine cardiac medication, no generic available.
Heart murmur can develop later in life. Many cases they are benign, but sometimes they are the result of other conditions. Be they genetic or environmental. It can be surprising because many times there are no symptoms. Murmurs can lead to heart failure as well, it depends on the cause. Some dogs have symptoms, some don't. There are certain genetic conditions which can lead to heart issues in 4-5year old dogs. However, most develop a murmur in senior age is environmental in other breeds. Some damage caused to the heart creating the murmur can lead to heart failure.
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Life went on, she was perky as ever, playing with our adopted Doberman. Then in June of this year, she developed a cough. The vet prescribed a cough medication & antibiotics & we took a short vacation, but the cough never completely resolved. Back to the vet, now she has fluid in her lungs & ascites (fluid in the abdomen) & we are told she has advanced state CHF! What? Furosemide (Lasix) is added to the list of meds, which now includes Vetmedin & cough medicine. She is enjoying her long summer walks but tiring easily. Her belly swells. She stops eating, refuses her meds, even with peanut butter bribes. Now the vet tells us she is in end-stage CHF & will die soon...what? Our Pom lived to be 15 & this dog is a mutt! The vet bluntly tells me that, due to so much inbreeding by breeders, even mixed breeds are now susceptible to genetic defects caused by inbreeding.
I am very sorry for this experience and heartache you suffered, as well as your dog going through this. While your previous experience was different there are different causes of CFH, some of which increases the severity and causes a quicker death as well. Each case isn't the same due to heart disease having different causes.
Your vet is incorrect. That's not how diseases and genetics work. What diseases are actually caused by inbreeding?
To keep it simple...... You can breed together two inbred dogs of the same breed and have a healthy litter, if they don't carry genes for diseases/ the same diseases. You can breed two unrelated pure breeds, of same breed, who are not inbred and get same results or get dogs with diseases.
You can breed together two heavily inbred pure bred dogs of different breeds who don't carry the same diseases in their respective breeds and you won't have health problems in litter. It is all dependent on the mode of inheritance and specific diseases. Clearly if a dog has a dominant disease they can produce this in a mix, if both breeds carry risk of same polygenic disease then there's a risk, this is regardless of them being inbred or not. There are several polygenic diseases in many breeds due to the mutations developing after domestication.
You can breed together two dogs of different breeds, neither of which are inbred and produce a pups which have genetic diseases.
Example for better understanding
If you breed Mastiff with (dominant) PRA to a Golden then half the litter is probably going to have PRA. Not due to inbreeding, it WILL happen regardless if the mastiff is inbred or not, this is due to the dog having a dominant disease that only needs one allele to express.
If you had bred Pom to a Yorkie, it is possible to produce pups with Luxating Patella, due to both breeds carrying genes for this disease. Yet even if Pom was very inbred and produced a litter with an inbred Border Collie it is very probable that none of the pups would have LP, though it is polygenic the genes needed to cause this don't appear to be issue in Border Collies.
Now if you breed an Australian Shepherd who is NOT inbred to a Standard Poodle who is NOT inbred, but both carry prcd PRA (recessive form) than 25% the litter (1 in 4) will likely have PRA, half will be carriers and the other 25% will come away healthy and non carriers.
Sorry to say that vets don't know much about breeding or genetic diseases in breeds. This is not to put down vets, but they are better with general aspects of breeding. It goes the same with nutrition or other aspects. That is why, just as with humans there are specialist vets. Your vet is good with general diagnosis and care on a subject, routine and preventative care and specific surgery. Then there are vets who are specialist in a specific field like nutritionist, repo vet (further educated in reproduction and breeding), cardiologist (better to diagnose certain murmur and treatment there of), orthopedic specialist (providing in-depth treatment of orthopedic issues, including surgery, recovery and physical therapy), the list goes on.
Actually some of the worse breeding advice had been given by vets to bybs who hold onto vet says my dog is healthy and would be okay to breed. When there is much more to it than that, like testing for breed specific diseases so unhealthy litter isn't produced, making sure they will have correct temperament and roundness, researching the lines to know what genes they might carry as well as the sire.
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So after a short rally on July 24, my little dog propped herself up on her front legs all Thursday night, gasping for breath. Nothing I did could help or comfort her. Her eyes said, "I love you, please help me". I ran her to the vet yesterday, & was told that draining her extremely distended belly would not help, the ascites would return, she was put on 100% O2, of which she was only absorbing 60%, & her heart was disintegrating as we spoke. So, spouse & I held her in our arms while they ended her life & we felt her go limp. We had her for 8 years & it should have been longer.
I got a lump in my throat just reading this. I understand the pain and heartache in losing a companion.

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I blame breeders...you are lazy people who exploit animals to earn a living. The health issues you have caused by constant inbreeding has filtered down into mixed-breed dogs. You leech a living off exploitation of innocent animals. I have seen how you treat them & the living conditions they endure. Get a real job, quit exploiting animals, there are already too many unwanted dogs in shelters everywhere.
Much blame is to be placed with the byb and mills. Though they won't get a job, especially considering mills. A "puppy mill" commercial breeder is licensed by the USDA and considered a business so that's their job. It is exploiting animals and ignorant public or some times selfish people who purchase this way. They don't care about breeding genetically unhealthy dogs, only about the profit made.
Your dog being a mix could have came from an accidental mating, rather than a breeder. Which means irresponsible owners who should have got their pets s/n. There are plenty of those. There is potential for oops litters to produce sick dogs.
What genetic condition was e 1st diagnosed?
I see no evidence of inbreeding being filtered down to mixed bred dogs in the way of genetic diseases. For one these problems of ill mixes have been around a long time, not recent, due to mutations post domestication. Thrre myth of designer dogs and mixes being healthier has never been true (unless your talking inbreeding depression) it has always been relative to the parent breeds and specific dogs used as examples above, rather than inbred or not.
For the reasons mentioned previously, no matter how's inbred a dog is if they don't have a health issue or are bred to a dog of another breed with different (non dominant) issue it is impossible to produce health problems and subsequently for the pups to have genetuc diseases that they don't have the genes for. Likewise two dogs of different breeds neither of which being inbred can have litter with genetic problems.
Some breeds have had a lot of inbreeding and now have a small gene pool, good breeders need to get away from this. Some are in certain breeds, in others it's hard to find. Then you have pure breed who still have a large gene pool and are very diversified so it isn't an issue.
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Oh, and for any suggestions that we just get another dog? Not in this state, you will be lied to about the dog's history. We adopted a Doberman, our 4th Doberman rescue, in November 2015, from a well-known "pure-breed animal rescue". The truth of the matter is that she had been returned to the Tacoma Humane Society TWICE, the second time for biting a family member. The Tacoma Humane Society, because of the biting issue, then declared her to be "unadoptable". So what did they do? Why, they released her to the "pure-breed animal rescue" who in turn, after 3 days in a "foster home", gave her to us, with no disclosures! She is a sweet, loving dog..in our house & on our property, with us & our late little dog...but try to take her in public, on a walk, on a trip, & she goes ballistic...she has reactive-bitten my husband 6 times, serious, skin-puncturing bites. We have tried meds & training, to no avail. The "rescue organization" will not help us with this poor dog, as she is a biter! Duh! BTW, this "purebreed animal rescue" organation requires an extensive written application, & states they will make a home inspection before dumping, oops, I mean placing a dog in your home...there was no home visit. We have acreage, but could have lived in a studio apt., or a shed, for all they knew.
Some rescues are as bad as some bybs. Recently there was an elderly woman killed by an adopted Pit Bull. Of course, it was later found out the dog had history of human aggression and had been previously returned for it. There were red flags imo, like the rescue using shock collar (which the results is what you get when you use such adversive tactics in an aghressive dog - a more dangerous dog). Anyway the rescue claims to help and rehab dogs, when obviously they do nothing to help the dogs or potentially adopters they are placing possible time bombs with.

I can only recommend if one is set on a breeder make sure they are doing breed appropriate heakth testing and find out what they are producing from others. Don't pick the 1st cute pup from a byb or buy from pet store (pup mill dog). You are helping them stay in business and perpetuate unhealthy and possibly temperament
If you are going to the rescue do the same, at least as much as you. If you know others whove adopted or work with them, to find out more behind the scenes. They might not be able to guarantee health mind you, but it can give you an idea of they are the type to place dogs known to be sick or have temp issues, without disclosing such information.
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Old 08-05-2017, 12:43 PM
 
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Some thoughtful observations, APBT_Samara, thank you.
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Old 08-05-2017, 01:05 PM
 
Location: on the wind
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Originally Posted by APBT_Samara View Post
I am very much for rescued and promoting adoption. However, one must realize it is a bigger gamble to rescue a dog without a known genetic history rather than going to a good breeder.
I would remind readers that this is not ALWAYS the case unless you are talking about a very specific breed or very specific traits. Dogs do end up in rescue through no fault of their own. We've all heard it....death of the owner, that irresponsible excuse "moving, can't take our beloved dog" or "we can't give our beloved dog the attention it deserves", allergies, etc. The problem still is, unless that dog has a documented history, pedigree, etc. it is still an unknown.

Quote:
Originally Posted by APBT_Samara View Post
There are so many dogs without homes who deserve them regardless of problems, but it is more likely you are going to get a dog with health and/or behavior problems. As these dogs came from mills, bybs, accidental/random matings.
Getting a dog through a rescue or shelter does not automatically mean it has problems or came from a puppy mill. It does mean the dog has history that a newborn puppy at a reputable responsible breeder does not...and that can be good as well as bad. What it does mean is that the adopter has to do their homework before deciding on adopting or not. None of us can force selfish shortsighted people to do that and the dog ends up the loser. We all hear about the dog adoption horror stories. They make the news. What we don't necessarily hear about are the successful dog adoption stories because everything went fine....no news is good news, right?

Last edited by Oldhag1; 08-08-2017 at 05:13 AM.. Reason: Fixed formatting
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Old 08-05-2017, 01:45 PM
 
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Originally Posted by AllisonHB View Post
Getting a dog through a rescue or shelter does not automatically mean it has problems or came from a puppy mill. It does mean the dog has history that a newborn puppy at a breeder does not...and that can be good as well as bad. What it does mean is that the adopter has to do their homework before deciding on adopting or not. None of us can force selfish shortsighted people to do that and the dog ends up the loser.
While I mainly agree with what you have stated will say that I don't mean they will automatically have a problem, simply that it is more likely. An adopter needs to understand the risk and accept that. Many dogs get dumped because owners are clueless and careless. The dog is no longer a cute puppy and now is unruly, pees in the house, chews up everything, barks all the time, ect All problems that are issues with the owner not training or providing for the dog and it's the dog who suffers, because of the owners unrealistic expectations and laziest.
There are also those with genetic predispositions for temperament issues that the owner does nothing to manage or even makes worse before dumping the dog off. So new owner must understand any potential problems and be committed to the dog. Health issues are also a problem, many who get a shelter or direct from byb have had to deal with them. This isn't the dogs fault, nor mean they shouldn't have a home, merely pointing it out as a possibility.

While maybe not a puppy mill, they are not responsibly bred (as mentioned other sources). Genetic issues are going to be more prevalent in not only puppy mill dogs, but also those from the various types of byb out there, ect. No health testing is taking a gamble by the breeder and passing that risk to pup & owner.
Not all byb are after money, some take great care of their pets and want another just like their dog and their friends want a dog and they also think that the normal looking strangers who show up for a pup are going to take great care of the pup, like they do their own dogs. They don't think these people look like those types, to dump a dog off or even severely neglect and abuse the dog.
While they take care of their own dogs, they fail to do health testing (many have never even heard of it, nor realize their healthy dogs could carry a genetic disease). So these pups or their own offspring can end up in shelters with issues caused by the owners and inherited health problems.

People have adopted already trained dogs that end up in shelters for one reason or another, they are even relatively healthy during life. There is a wide range of dogs available in shelters. So I'm only saying be aware of possibilities. If I adopt a dog with fear issues, I wouldn't blame the dog or shelter I'd work with the dog and stay committed. If I adopted a dog who ended up with a health issue I'd provide the care needed for my dog to have the best life they could living with the disease. Of course some are easier to manage than others and take less toll on the dog. Like minor allergies vs degenerative myelopathy.

Not sure what you mean about having the history and that being good or bad. Like some might be good if they were trained and socialized? Some might be bad having created issues?
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Old 08-05-2017, 01:51 PM
 
Location: on the wind
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Originally Posted by APBT_Samara View Post
While I mainly agree with what you have stated will say that I don't mean they will automatically have a problem, simply that it is more likely. An adopter needs to understand the risk and accept that. Many dogs get dumped because owners are clueless and careless. The dog is no longer a cute puppy and now is unruly, pees in the house, chews up everything, barks all the time, ect All problems that are issues with the owner not training or providing for the dog and it's the dog who suffers, because of the owners unrealistic expectations and laziest.
There are also those with genetic predispositions for temperament issues that the owner does nothing to manage or even makes worse before dumping the dog off. So new owner must understand any potential problems and be committed to the dog. Health issues are also a problem, many who get a shelter or direct from byb have had to deal with them. This isn't the dogs fault, nor mean they shouldn't have a home, merely pointing it out as a possibility.

While maybe not a puppy mill, they are not responsibly bred. Genetic issues are going to be more prevalent in not only puppy mill dogs, but also those from the various types of byb out there, ect. No health testing is taking a gamble by the breeder and passing that risk to pup & owner.
Not all byb are after money, some take great care of their pets and want another just like their dog and their friends want a dog and they also think that the normal looking strangers who show up for a pup are going to take great care of the pup, like they do their own dogs. They don't think these people look like those types, to dump a dog off or even severely neglect and abuse the dog.
While they take care of their own dogs, they fail to do health testing (many have never even heard of it, nor realize their healthy dogs could carry a genetic disease). So these pups or their own offspring can end up in shelters with issues caused by the owners and inherited health problems.

People have adopted already trained dogs that end up in shelters for one reason or another, they are even relatively healthy during life. There is a wide range of dogs available in shelters. So I'm only saying be aware of possibilities. If I adopt a dog with fear issues, I wouldn't blame the dog or shelter I'd work with the dog and stay committed. If I adopted a dog who ended up with a health issue I'd provide the care needed for my dog to have the best life they could living with the disease. Of course some are easier to manage than others and take less toll on the dog. Like minor allergies vs degenerative myelopathy.

Not sure what you mean about not having the history and that being good or bad.
Yes, we agree pretty much. I sometimes catch too many "absolutes" in people's posts that shouldn't be interpreted as absolute by some reader who stumbles on the conversation. You know, always, never, etc.

As for "history", I meant that a shelter/rescue dog could have had a great previous history with a knowledgeable family and because of this, its a dog without bad baggage.
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Old 08-05-2017, 02:04 PM
 
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Okay, that's what I thought you meant, but wanted to be sure. There are some easy dogs in shelters for sure, they seem very cared for and already trained. One reason or excuse and they loose their family.
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Old 08-07-2017, 01:54 PM
 
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Originally Posted by APBT_Samara View Post
While I mainly agree with what you have stated will say that I don't mean they will automatically have a problem, simply that it is more likely.
I have to disagree. People give dogs up for the most ridiculous of reasons, including going on vacation and some of the others which were mentioned above.

Genetic testing is great but it's not a guarantee either for some inherited issues. I know of one OFA excellent dog who was bred to another OFA excellent dog and half of that litter had bad hips. For 5 generations back on each side my GSD's parents had good hips but my dig didn't and had to have bilateral TPOs. From what I've read about degenerative myelopathy even if a dog's parents are clear, it's not a guarantee that the offspring won't have it. I'd love to wrong about that so if I am, please let me know. Even good breeders can't guarantee the health or temperament of a dog.

I'm not anti breeder. I've bought dogs from reputable breeders but I think you're painting dogs in shelters with too dark a brush. Yes there are problem dogs out there but I don't think it's "most" or "more "likely".
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