Frustration setting in -- could use advice (bite, toy, train)

[bassetluv]

I have discovered that he is has a high degree of separation anxiety and wants to be right next to either me or my husband all of the time he is out of his crate (which is most of the time). If we're not active (for instance, if we're watching TV, are on the computer or are balancing our checkbook or reading), he simply lies down on the floor beside us and is completely content. If the person he's with gets up to go in the other room, though, he's on his feet immediately, and following them to wherever they go.

This might be a sign of separation anxiety, or a bit of insecurity that could certainly lead to separation anxiety. I did have a dog who had a pretty severe case of separation anxiety (she would literally tear up a room if left alone), and with her, I practised a bit of variation. She was certainly allowed to lie next to me if I was in a room watching tv or on a computer, BUT...if she showed signs of getting up to follow every time I went to exit the room, I taught her the stay command. I didn't allow her to follow me 100% of the time. Sometimes, yes. But in setting some boundaries and teaching her that I didn't always want her shadowing (simply because I didn't want to reinforce her anxiety issues) I made her stay put while I exited a room, and she had to stay until I got back. Sometimes it takes a bit of patience to teach this, but I looked at it this way...I was showing her that it was okay to be alone in a room. I WAS coming back. She didn't have any reason to be anxious. And this went a long way in building up her confidence, over time.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by MarianRavenwood

First of all, Keeshonds were bred to be 'alert' dogs. Not guard dogs--they aren't designed to attack. Just to bark and alert their owner of a visitor. Bred to alert Dutch barge owners if a visitor was approaching. They aren't working dogs like spaniels or retrievers--their job was to stick close to their master. Not to run off into fields. So the fact that your dog is sticking close to you all the time is normal behavior for this breed.

Okay, sounds reasonable.

I don't know anyone who trains their dog to know the words "Go potty!" so I'm not sure why you expected him to know what you are shouting at him.

My goodness. I've never once shouted at the dog. Why in the world would you think I had? You may not have heard that phrase used in housebreaking, but I've heard it a lot, and it's a suggested phrase in training websites everywhere, just like "Sit!" and "Stay!" and "Heel!"

I also don't know anyone who expect their dog to only pee in a particular part of their yard, unless that part is somehow delineated (such as a fenced dog run).

I think you are confusing him by putting the leash on him. He knows what the leash is--it means a walk. He's staring at you because he's wondering when you're going to start walking.

That's possible, but again, I've read numerous times on the internet that that's what you should do.

Also, monitor his water intake. You didn't mention his weight, but typically the estimate is 1 oz. of water for each lb. of dog weight, per day. So a 20 lb. dog should drink about 2 1/2 cups of water a day. Nervous dogs may drink more water than usual, which may lead him to pee more than expected.

He weighs 25 pounds. He actually pees less frequently than we expected. He just pees when he's out of our sight, which is almost never.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Dashdog

So just because a dog wants attention all the time when people are around does not mean they have separation anxiety.

My post was probably misleading. I didn't realize Keeshonds want to be close to you at all times, and I'm actually okay with that. It's actually kind of amusing to think I have to have company when I go to the bathroom myself! What I meant when I said he has separation anxiety is that it seems as if the times he pees in the house are when we've left him there alone for a brief (i.e. 30 minutes or less) period of time. When he is left alone longer than that, we've been crating him.

Hang in there your dog may be 2 but moving into a new home can take some time to get adjusted so accidents do happen even in a dog that is house trained.

Thanks for the encouragement.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by MarianRavenwood

Down the road, you can train him to ring a bell to let you know when he needs to go out.

That sounds pretty innovative and kind of clever. We have a doggie door, though, that all of our previous dogs have used. We'd have started training him to use it from day 1 except that he is currently wearing the Collar of Shame and can't get through the door with it on. It comes off next Thursday. Meanwhile, we've actually been keeping the door to the backyard open for him most of the time, so that if he wanted to go out when not in our sight, he'd be able to.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by shadowne

First and most importantly, thank you for rescuing your new dog. I followed your thread about crating and held back my initial impression of the rescue/foster situation as it was not positive. Honestly, as someone active in rescue for several years I was disturbed.

You're welcome. He is so precious. We just adore him. I'm just frustrated right now because he just seems determined not to pee or poop while anyone is watching! That seems so weird to me. My husband took him out first thing this morning the second we let him out of his crate. They were out for about 20 minutes and he never went!

I do try to keep the dogs in the same room and if I notice them go off into another room I try to follow at least early on. They can very quickly eliminate in another room and be back before you notice they are gone.

Yeah, so I've discovered!

[/quote]Tethering can help with this although I don't care for it myself.[/quote]Me neither.

If I were in your situation (not saying you should do this, only that this is what I would do), I would focus on getting the housebreaking taken care of -big picture- and worry about fine tuning getting the dog to eliminate only in the same spot at a later time.

We'd given that some thought, but were concerned that once he finally learned to go outside in the yard, it would be confusing to him to one day be told that he should not be going all of the places we were praising him for going in the past.

Btw, have you ever heard of belly bands? They can be helpful to prevent marking or urinating in the house.

Wow! No, I haven't heard of them until just now. That might be just the ticket! Thank you for mentioning this!

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by bassetluv

This might be a sign of separation anxiety, or a bit of insecurity that could certainly lead to separation anxiety. I did have a dog who had a pretty severe case of separation anxiety (she would literally tear up a room if left alone), and with her, I practised a bit of variation. She was certainly allowed to lie next to me if I was in a room watching tv or on a computer, BUT...if she showed signs of getting up to follow every time I went to exit the room, I taught her the stay command. I didn't allow her to follow me 100% of the time. Sometimes, yes. But in setting some boundaries and teaching her that I didn't always want her shadowing (simply because I didn't want to reinforce her anxiety issues) I made her stay put while I exited a room, and she had to stay until I got back. Sometimes it takes a bit of patience to teach this, but I looked at it this way...I was showing her that it was okay to be alone in a room. I WAS coming back. She didn't have any reason to be anxious. And this went a long way in building up her confidence, over time.

What a great idea! I like it! Right now my focus is going to be 100% on housebreaking, but once that's under control, I'm going to take this suggestion.

[Katzpur]

Question: If I'm keeping a close eye on him (as in never letting him out of my sight for a split second) and he's never relieving himself in my presence, should I wait until I think he has a relatively full bladder before I take him outside? I'm thinking he might be more inclined to go when he is out there if he really needs to, rather than if he's almost forcing himself to go just because he thinks that's what is expected.

[mic111]

So many good comments that are similar to what works for us.

When we get a new foster they go out every hour on the hour. I don't care if the dog is supposed to be house trained or not. House training doesn't always translate into a new environment with different floor types, different outdoor noises, different smells, different reactions from people etc. If they aren't going each time I increase it to 2 hours, then 3 then 4. Pretty much I can tell by then what their schedule is. It only takes a couple of days. They also go out right after meals no matter what time it is. And first thing in the morning and last thing at night.

It is much easier to take the dog out every hour than to deal with pee or poop in the house. And they develop the habit of going outdoors.

Also I think you are trying to bend the dog too much to your will and not being responsive to what he needs.

Clearly he needs a walk to poop so do that. As someone already mentioned the walking helps get things moving. He may be constipated with a new food. Or he simply may be built such that he needs movement to get things going. As 12paw said, make it a fund bonding time with the walks. Explore new routes every day. Give him a chance to get familiar with the sounds and smells of the neighborhood. Dogs have a whole world in scent that is completely transparent to us. We don't see or smell it at all but they do. Pretty soon he will feel like home.

Clearly he needs the whole yard to move around in. Your desire to set up a toilet room for him isn't working for him. I wouldn't be putting his poop down in the yard after you have already picked it up. Many dogs want to avoid soiling their den and will avoid their own poop. I don't think your placing poop in the yard will tell him to go where you want. He is going to want to be setting up his own spot that he likes the smell of and feels comfortable in. After you see where he regularly goes then try converting that to a spot but I wouldn't do anything about that now.

He is in a brand new environment and needs everything to be as low stress as possible while he gains confidence in you and your reactions. Shadowne gave a very nice post and said the same thing with just letting them chill. This period is multiple weeks, not multiple days. I sort of let the learn the house routine with gentle guidance, not demanding or commanding any thing.

In your post I wasn't reading separation anxiety, more velcro dog. But I haven't read your other posts.

In terms of peeing in the house when you aren't there, this dog was probably punished for peeing and does it out of sight of scary humans. This may also play into your not getting him to pee while you are out there tapping your foot and watching the clock. It is in the presence of scary humans who punish a dog for peeing. How to solve this? Walk every time so he pees while out sniffing other dogs pee. Never ever drag him off while peeing or pooing. Be ecstatically happy every time. And hand out a treat every time.

Completely abandon your desire for a spot in the yard because he will be afraid to go in front of you if you start confusing him with this or that spot is good or bad. At this point every spot outside is good.

If you continue on your quest for a specific spot you might end up with a dog that is trained to not go in the yard at all. The house will become preferred because he can get out of sight of a scary human, while in the yard, the scary human is always in lurking around to scold him. Don't start scolding him in the house either because you risk making him scared to go in your presence, just work on getting him comfortable going outside, on walk and in the yard. Start with the puppy routine of every hour and work your way up. Incorporate lots and lots of walks every day if that is what he likes. You need to closely observe him for the things that bring him the most pleasure. Is it treats, a ball, play time, cuddle time, walking, etc. But also be sensitive to him just having surgery, been given up out of his old home he loved (home sickness), the stress of shelter/foster, a new home with people who have completely different routines and speak a foreign language. He may need to sleep alot, he may need to have no pressure, just calm warm feelings broadcasted his way while you smile alot, speak happy tones to him and make sure he is getting what he needs to feel comfortable and learn his new environment in a positive loving way.

Right now you are setting him up to fail and disappoint you which he will feel in your reactions to him. Try to do everything you can to set him up for success. This means changing your expectations of him and adapting to what he needs.

[twelvepaw]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

I'm just frustrated right now because he just seems determined not to pee or poop while anyone is watching! That seems so weird to me. My husband took him out first thing this morning the second we let him out of his crate. They were out for about 20 minutes and he never went!

Sorry, but I wouldn't suggest either belly bands or piddle pads under these circumstances. Your dog needs to be taught how to potty appropriately, and that means that you need to adjust your expectations to meet his needs. Once he feels comfortable in your home then you can work on encouraging him to potty in a particular area.

Your frustration isn't helping him. Let go of 90% of what you think he should be doing, e.g. pottying in the "right" spot. Right now you just need to house train him. You can fine tune it later. Get rid of the frustration and let your dog work it out. You should be enjoying and bonding with him, not being frustrated. He will learn.

It isn't weird at all that he doesn't want to pee or poop with anyone around. If he was scolded for doing it by his previous owner/s or foster he may feel that it isn't safe to potty with anyone around.

Another reason to take him for short walks to get him to potty- the smells of other dogs will help him understand that it is ok for him to potty there.

If you really want him to potty in your yard without a walk- get him a 40 foot tracking lead and put it on him when you want him to potty in the yard. With the long length he will be able to move away from you in order to potty. Alternately, just let him loose in the yard to pick his potty spot.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by mic111

So many good comments that are similar to what works for us.

Yes, I am hoping for a lot of opinions. Obviously, if they're all different, I'm not going to have accomplished much, but if I see several people agreeing on an idea or suggestion, I'll more than likely give it a try.

When we get a new foster they go out every hour on the hour. I don't care if the dog is supposed to be house trained or not. House training doesn't always translate into a new environment with different floor types, different outdoor noises, different smells, different reactions from people etc. If they aren't going each time I increase it to 2 hours, then 3 then 4. Pretty much I can tell by then what their schedule is. It only takes a couple of days.

I'm going to go with this suggestion. I'll start with every hour on the hour and increase the time accordingly. He's been up and around for two hours now and he still hasn't gone. I'm starting to think he has a bladder of steel.

They also go out right after meals no matter what time it is.

Immediately? We've always waited about a half hour just to let things get moving.

And first thing in the morning and last thing at night.

Yeah, that goes without saying.

Also I think you are trying to bend the dog too much to your will and not being responsive to what he needs.

I hope that's not what I'm doing. He's just really not giving me many clues (i.e. sniffing around, etc.).

Clearly he needs a walk to poop so do that. As someone already mentioned the walking helps get things moving. He may be constipated with a new food.

Definitely not constipated.

Clearly he needs the whole yard to move around in. Your desire to set up a toilet room for him isn't working for him. I wouldn't be putting his poop down in the yard after you have already picked it up. Many dogs want to avoid soiling their den and will avoid their own poop. I don't think your placing poop in the yard will tell him to go where you want. He is going to want to be setting up his own spot that he likes the smell of and feels comfortable in. After you see where he regularly goes then try converting that to a spot but I wouldn't do anything about that now.

I agree about putting the poop back in the yard. I thought it would trigger a "Hey! That's mine! I guess I'll go here!" response, but so far he's just avoiding where I've put the poop down. I'll pick it up and throw it away the next time we're out.

He is in a brand new environment and needs everything to be as low stress as possible while he gains confidence in you and your reactions. Shadowne gave a very nice post and said the same thing with just letting them chill. This period is multiple weeks, not multiple days. I sort of let the learn the house routine with gentle guidance, not demanding or commanding any thing.

Well, I really haven't been demanding or commanding, but I guess maybe it's me who needs to chill.

In your post I wasn't reading separation anxiety, more velcro dog. But I haven't read your other posts.

Maybe I've just been reading him wrong. I took the fact that he has never peed or pooped in the house in our presence but has always done it when we're not around as being a symptom of anxiety over us having left. I do think it odd that he's so hesitant to have us see him go, though.

In terms of peeing in the house when you aren't there, this dog was probably punished for peeing and does it out of sight of scary humans. This may also play into your not getting him to pee while you are out there tapping your foot and watching the clock. It is in the presence of scary humans who punish a dog for peeing. How to solve this? Walk every time so he pees while out sniffing other dogs pee. Never ever drag him off while peeing or pooing. Be ecstatically happy every time. And hand out a treat every time.

So far, we've been ecstatically happy whenever he's gone where he's supposed to go (and believe me, it's no act!) and we've given him a treat every time without fail. When he pees or poops on our walks, I say nothing, either positive or negative. I just clean up the mess if it's poop.

Completely abandon your desire for a spot in the yard because he will be afraid to go in front of you if you start confusing him with this or that spot is good or bad. At this point every spot outside is good.

See, one training site I visited yesterday said that you should teach a dog to go in a specific place and that "just anywhere outside" is not good enough. I just don't know whose advice to take on this. Right now, we have blocked off a fairly decent size corner of the yard with a portable heavy-gauge wire fold-out fence. (That was our latest plan, which we tried just this morning.) From now on, I'll not have a leash on him when I take him out to that corner, since he can't get out of it.

If you continue on your quest for a specific spot you might end up with a dog that is trained to not go in the yard at all. The house will become preferred because he can get out of sight of a scary human, while in the yard, the scary human is always in lurking around to scold him. Don't start scolding him in the house either because you risk making him scared to go in your presence, just work on getting him comfortable going outside, on walk and in the yard. Start with the puppy routine of every hour and work your way up. Incorporate lots and lots of walks every day if that is what he likes. You need to closely observe him for the things that bring him the most pleasure. Is it treats, a ball, play time, cuddle time, walking, etc. But also be sensitive to him just having surgery, been given up out of his old home he loved (home sickness), the stress of shelter/foster, a new home with people who have completely different routines and speak a foreign language. He may need to sleep alot, he may need to have no pressure, just calm warm feelings broadcasted his way while you smile alot, speak happy tones to him and make sure he is getting what he needs to feel comfortable and learn his new environment in a positive loving way.

Thanks for the advice. Judging from what I'm dealing with, I suspect his foster home was more like a kennel. I honestly think that if he's feeling anything, it's relief to be out of there. We are giving him tons and tons of love and affection, and he thinks the hoof I just gave him is out of this world.

Originally Posted by twelvepaw

Sorry, but I wouldn't suggest either belly bands or piddle pads under these circumstances. Your dog needs to be taught how to potty appropriately, and that means that you need to adjust your expectations to meet his needs. Once he feels comfortable in your home then you can work on encouraging him to potty in a particular area.

I need to check more into belly bands before I make a decision one way or the other with him, but I do agree that it's probably too soon to resort to that. I am absolutely not going to be trying piddle pads. Been there, done that for our first dog and it caused more problems than it was worth. She picked up right away that she was supposed to be going on the pads, but would often put just her front feet on them and go on the floor they were sitting on. Half on, half off.

Your frustration isn't helping him. Let go of 90% of what you think he should be doing, e.g. pottying in the "right" spot. Right now you just need to house train him. You can fine tune it later. Get rid of the frustration and let your dog work it out. You should be enjoying and bonding with him, not being frustrated. He will learn.

I'm doing my best, really I am. And I have an enormously supportive husband. Even if the idea of getting a dog was mine, he is just so helpful and understanding of my frustration that it makes it a lot easier than if he were to say, "You wanted a dog. Deal with it. It's your problem."

It isn't weird at all that he doesn't want to pee or poop with anyone around. If he was scolded for doing it by his previous owner/s or foster he may feel that it isn't safe to potty with anyone around.

Too bad I don't know his actual history, huh?

Another reason to take him for short walks to get him to potty- the smells of other dogs will help him understand that it is ok for him to potty there.

But how is that going to teach him to do his thing in his own yard?