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Old 10-10-2017, 10:14 AM
 
Location: Santa Barbara CA
4,706 posts, read 10,134,819 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bassetluv View Post
I did the quick check to see how many carbs are in my dog's food. Not sure if what I calculated is accurate as ash wasn't listed on either bag (I feed my dog two different foods). However, what I got without calculating ash was 50% for his Taste of the Wild food (high) and 12% for his Freshpet Select (low, I'm presuming).

Because my dog has always had digestive issues - I've tried him on various foods and nothing seems to make a difference...he wavers between normal poops and extremely soft to diarrhea - I'm looking into the homemade diet to see if it will make a difference, and to see if I would be consistent enough to make his food for him. He's also extremely fussy; I could not convince him to eat raw food at all when I tried switching him and my other dog a few years ago (Kaya, no problem, but Izzy absolutely refused to eat), so I'll most likely wind up lightly cooking his meals. At any rate, it'll be interesting to see the results down the road.
When I first got Dazzle He was underweight and getting weight on a sighthound can be difficult. I Made Satin Balls which is a raw calorie dense food.Dazzle, Jazz and Dash looked at those raw meat ball then up at me like you forgot to cook them could you please cook them? Now Dazzle gobbles raw meats.
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Old 10-10-2017, 11:00 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Dashdog View Post
The video came from conference about human cancer, they invited some speakers to talk about canine cancer.If I Recall it is believed only about 10 % of cancers are considered genetic.They are finding cancers may have a relationship to insulin .Sugars ie carbs may be one of the things that are turning on those cancer cells and causing them to reproduce.If I had a breed that is prone to cancer, I would be very careful with carbs in the diet as it might be what is flipping that switch .I also feel the average vet will say no to ketogenic diet for two reasons it is raw and most vets were taught raw is wrong and many hear the word ketogenic and think you are talking diabetic keto acidosis which is not what it is it is a nutritional ketosis.As I said Keto pets will send you the necessary information to do it and they are vets that are doing research on cancer so not just some Joe blow.

I myself have been on a ketogenic diet and know diabetics that have type 2 diabetes that have gone on it and gotten off of meds by following a ketogenic diet. Ketones are a fuel source just as glucose .Fasting is another way to get a body to burn ketones as once the glucose is used up in a fast you use ketones.


Sorry but too many vets still believe that dogs and cats should just eat kibble and in the mean time we are in an epidemic of pet cancers, diabetes and other chronic diseases. I think the newer generation of vets will get it and you will see a switch in how most dogs and cats are fed. The fact that Cats can not use carbs as they lack an enzyme to break down carbs yet we feed them kibible that bombards them with way too many useless carbs then wonder why our cats are dieing from diabetes and kidney failure really blows my mind.Vets will even prescribe a prescription kibble diet for themKibble has to have starches to get the Ingredients to stick together so we are not talking grains as even grain free kibble often have a ton of carbs as without them a kibble type food is impossible.I took in my dad's diabetic cat years ago and if dealing with a young vet that got the no kibble for cats this was eye opening , yet the other vets at the same clinic did not all get it carbs do matter.



On October 17th the dog cancer series begins, it is a free online event where they will be talking to all the experts and hoping it will open the eyes of not only pet owners but vets.I love my vet but he does not believe in feeding raw yet for years keeps asking me how come my dogs appear to be younger then they are and have such healthy skin and glossy coats... maybe it is what they are eating doc!
That is also why I suggest an animal nutritionist, they are up on most of the research on alternative diets. But I stand by statement that ketogenic is potential dangerous for some dogs. I also specifically stated how dangerous most commercial diets are and yet you are acting as if I stated people should feed commercial diets. I did not.

Second, the notion that sugar is "turning on" cancer cells is just plain old not true. This goes back to an idea from the 1920s which has been disproven as over simplistic at best. Cancer cells are just regular cells that due to changes in their DNA are not properly going through the cell cycle. Additionally, humans and dogs have very different metabolic needs and different syndromes and diseases associated with glucose. I am very glad a ketogenic diet is working for you, god knows it is a literal life saver for many children with epilepsy but you are acting as if ketogenic diets prevent or reverse cancer. That is a drastic overstatement.

With regards to genetics and cancer, saying something like 10% of cancers are genetic is an overly simplistic statement for a complicated issue and underscores the issue I am getting at. That number refers to conditions like lymphoma in Golden retrievers where a specific mutation in a specific gene in a specific breed is known to cause a specific cancer. Of course that is going to skew low, the genomes of all breeds are not known, even when they are, sample sizes are low, etc. Many, many breeds are genetically predisposed to cancer, far more than 10% and implying that one particular extreme diet can cure or precent most or even many cancers is just not supported by the data.

So finally, yes, feed a quality diet, if for no other reason that it improves quality of life, but no, ketogenic is not a panacea and as with any extreme diet make sure it is suitable for your dog.
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Old 10-10-2017, 11:14 AM
 
16,568 posts, read 14,018,676 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bassetluv View Post
Yes, I have to give it to him on a semi-regular basis. I always have cubed pure pumpkin handy in the freezer for just that purpose.

Unfortunately, while the pumpkin does help to curb the soft stool to some degree, it doesn't resolve the problem. It's possible he has a food allergy issue, so I'm hoping that a gradual change to a different type of diet may do something. After trying different dry foods on him as a pup, he finally did well on Taste of the Wild. That lasted for quite some time, but every so often would still have a hint of soft stool. And now it's becoming worse again. So, time to go back to the drawing board on Izzy's food.
That does sounds like a food allergy, and elimination diets are such a pain for dogs. In the meantime you might want to try a probiotic. One of mine gets seasonal allergies and we see her symptoms minimize when we add probiotics to her diet. We don't really use supplements but we give her yogurt, a little kefir here and there and even some tempeh if my brother has some. But there has been some research showing a positive effect of using those probiotic mixes on diarrhea. I don't know if you have access to journals articles but here is a citation

Sauter, S. N., J. Benyacoub, K. Allenspach, F. Gaschen, E. Ontsouka, G. Reuteler, C. Cavadini, R. Knorr, and J. W. Blum. "Effects of probiotic bacteria in dogs with food responsive diarrhoea treated with an elimination diet." Journal of animal physiology and animal nutrition 90, no. 7‐8 (2006): 269-277.
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Old 10-10-2017, 06:43 PM
 
Location: Santa Barbara CA
4,706 posts, read 10,134,819 times
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"Cancer cells are just regular cells that due to changes in their DNA are not properly going through the cell cycle. " I would not call cancer cells regular cells as it is proven they have many more insulin receptors then a regular cell thus you feed them glucose they gobble it up and start to multiple at a much fast rate which is why burning fat instead of glucose can slow or stop them while feeding them glucose ( carbs) fuels the fire.

I still think people especially vets hear the word ketogenic and right away think diabetic keto acidosis which yes is VERY bad it consists of high blood sugar AND high insulin levels. Nutritional Ketosis on the other had is low blood sugar and low insulin levels. Two totally different animals.

Burning fat rather then glucose as a fuel source is something body's can do and dogs probably better then humans as they have no real need for carbs to survive yet we bombard them with carbs and drive up the blood sugar and insulin levels And then wonder why our dogs have so many chronic illnesses
.
I am not saying a healthy dog needs to eat a ketogenic diet but it does need to be low carbs Whole food instead of processed foods and that is not what the average vet promotes.

As for genetic cancer being responsible for 10 % of canine cancers that is in the total dog population, like it or not 90% is from environmental issues. As for Goldens and some other breeds prone to cancers yeah their rate is higher then 10% percent genetic the fact the AKC allows line breeding is part of that issue, but the over all Canine cancer rate is believed to be only 10 % genetic. And even with genetic cancers I feel a diet that cuts the fuel source to the cancer cells off as the ketogenic does is of benefit to a dog with cancer.

I am not saying Chemo does not have a place in treatment as I think low dose chemo does The Navy protocol which is low dose chemo along with a ketogenic diet for some cancers could be a good combo, But that is not what the average cancer patient gets they get high doses of very toxic chemo and are told diet has no effect on cancer and to me that is insane. And I do think diet is very important as the keto pet sanctuary has shown.

There is a canine cancer series starting for free on Oct 17th so lets see what all the experts involved in the making of it say......
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Old 10-11-2017, 08:13 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dashdog View Post
"Cancer cells are just regular cells that due to changes in their DNA are not properly going through the cell cycle. " I would not call cancer cells regular cells as it is proven they have many more insulin receptors then a regular cell thus you feed them glucose they gobble it up and start to multiple at a much fast rate which is why burning fat instead of glucose can slow or stop them while feeding them glucose ( carbs) fuels the fire.
Insulin, and other IGF receptors are a function of upregulation and NOT unique structure which is what you seem to be saying. And you have it completely backwards. The reason the cells have IR and IGFR upregulated is because they are stuck in the M vs S and thus require more resources to maintain synthesis/division. Your non-cancerous cells upregulate the number of IGF and IRs as well during that phase. This is literally what I mean when I say they are "regular cells not properly going through the cell cycle"

Quote:
I still think people especially vets hear the word ketogenic and right away think diabetic keto acidosis which yes is VERY bad it consists of high blood sugar AND high insulin levels. Nutritional Ketosis on the other had is low blood sugar and low insulin levels. Two totally different animals.
I have a graduate degree in biology. I know the difference between ketoacidosis and ketogenic. And anyone who does not disclose the dangers of low blood sugar should not be promoting a diet and telling people not to talk to experts. Low blood sugar can kill a dog (or person) just as readily as high. This is why for dogs who are diabetic, and extreme diet like a ketogenic one (and make no mistake putting an omniore on a diet with only protein is an extreme diet) can be dangerous and should not be undertaken just because of a youtube video. Likewise dogs or breeds with known kidney problems should also only undertake such a diet under the purview of an expert.

Quote:
Burning fat rather then glucose as a fuel source is something body's can do and dogs probably better then humans as they have no real need for carbs to survive yet we bombard them with carbs and drive up the blood sugar and insulin levels And then wonder why our dogs have so many chronic illnesses
This is such an overstatement as to be ridiculous. First people NEED glucose. It is literally the only metabolite the brain can use unless you put the body into starvation mode. That is how the ketogenic diet works for epileptics, btw. The lack of glucose lowers neural function/electrical activity in the brain limiting the number of seizures. Now we are animals who have evolved a "back up system" of sorts in or ability to use things like medium chain triglycerides during those period of low availability of carbs but pretending it is anything beyond survival is just not true.

This is exactly what I was talking about in terms of swinging too far in the other direction. There is a very real problem of too much dietary glucose causing neurons to become "over excited" and thus die early, but swinging to keeping you body in a constant no glucose state is too far the other way. There is a reason the term is called a "balanced" diet.

As for dogs, there ability to metabolize fatty acids for brain health is not completely known. Pretending it is is a disservice, and once more as neither you nor I are experts in canine nutrition, if someone is interested in a ketogenic diet their dogs health, it is appropriate to direct them to an expert.

Quote:
I am not saying a healthy dog needs to eat a ketogenic diet but it does need to be low carbs Whole food instead of processed foods and that is not what the average vet promotes.
This is another oversimplification. You use of the words "low carb" here is a good example. Not all carbs are created equal. And defining how low is low, could be argued by the real experts all day. And not all dogs metabolize in the same way. As I have mentioned I feed a raw food diet for the most part. But one of my dogs has a metabolism so high she cannot keep weight on, on just raw. She has to get one meal (and she has to have 3) a day with higher carbs or she gets skinny. As your are aware spinach, parsley, sweet potatoes and quinoa that she gets as part of that meal are down right verboten for low carb but it works for her. Guess who figured out she needs carbs? A canine nutritionist who drew her blood at different times during the day.

And again, I specifically said vet or nutritionist.

Quote:
As for genetic cancer being responsible for 10 % of canine cancers that is in the total dog population, like it or not 90% is from environmental issues. As for Goldens and some other breeds prone to cancers yeah their rate is higher then 10% percent genetic the fact the AKC allows line breeding is part of that issue, but the over all Canine cancer rate is believed to be only 10 % genetic. And even with genetic cancers I feel a diet that cuts the fuel source to the cancer cells off as the ketogenic does is of benefit to a dog with cancer.
Goal posts got moved here. I said pure breeds, specifically. Yes, mixed breeds will be lower. And if you are going to keep giving that number as if it were some sort of universal statistic, please provide the source.

NO, 90% of cancer is NOT environmental. This is really an important idea, an one that you have wrong. The vast majority of cancers are just plain old bad luck, meaning it is due to transcription errors during DNA synthesis. Its like photocopying something . Everytime you make a copy you run the risk, however small, that the copy will have a mistake. Then all the copies from that one have that mistake, and if it is a particular type of mistake voila! cancer. Please don't spread misinformation like this, it is dangerous.

Quote:
I am not saying Chemo does not have a place in treatment as I think low dose chemo does The Navy protocol which is low dose chemo along with a ketogenic diet for some cancers could be a good combo, But that is not what the average cancer patient gets they get high doses of very toxic chemo and are told diet has no effect on cancer and to me that is insane. And I do think diet is very important as the keto pet sanctuary has shown.
I don't understand why you are saying I am advocating for chemo. I didn't say that.

Quote:
There is a canine cancer series starting for free on Oct 17th so lets see what all the experts involved in the making of it say......
Please make sure the people involved are actual experts. I like Rodney Habib, and he seems to have synthesized quite a bit of info, but he is a blogger/journalist and his degree is not in science or nutrition. Dr. Becker is a veterinarian but does not publish research on canine nutrition. Always be skeptical of those who are to selling websites, magazines or books as is the case for the people in the video posted. Again, I am back to my original statement, if you think ketogenic might be a good choice for your dogs, take an hour or two and make an appointment with someone who can just verify that it is a good choice for YOUR dog.
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Old 10-11-2017, 01:07 PM
 
Location: Santa Barbara CA
4,706 posts, read 10,134,819 times
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IKBO714

I have never said not to check with experts if you want to use a ketogenic diet for cancer. I have said to contact Ketopets. They are willing to help and have a great e-book that they will send for free put together because so many pet owners were contacting them for help .It gives you info you need to know and tells you how to figure out the ratios of fat, proteins and carbs.In other words it can be a good starting point for those that want to look into using a ketogenic diet. They are not a bunch of Joe blows as they are vets. oncologists, researchers. nutritionists. The work they have been doing with the shelter dogs with advanced cancers they adopted is amazing.

Back when one of my dogs had cancer I did contact Dr Greg Ogilvie who is a vet oncologist and was an instructor of my own vet at CSU and my vet claims is a very brilliant man. He has a lot of experience with diet and cancer treatment and was promoting very low carb diet, high fats and high quality proteins. I did contact him but by the time I heard back from him it was a bit too late but still thought it was interesting. He did mention that he felt all dogs should eat low carb diets.


I did not say you advocate chemo "I don't understand why you are saying I am advocating for chemo. I didn't say that.":

My comment about using low dose chemo like the Navy protocol was not in any way aimed at you it was just my own feelings on the subject. While no I would never do a standard round of Chemo as I feel it too often does more harm then good I am open to some of the low dose protocols. Sorry if you seem to feel it was some remark against you as it was just my thoughts. I just feel sometimes using something like that along with diet can give one a better chance of survival.

Same with my explaining the difference between ketoacidosis and ketogenic that also was not aimed at you but more a statement to those that know how bad ketoacidosis is and hear the word " keto " and right away go to ketoacidosis. And yes Doctors will do that as when I was doing a strict ketogenic diet and mentioned it to a few doctors that is exactly where they went. You act like I explained it to insult you as if I knew you had a degree in biology...lol which right now as I type this I realized I am doing the exact same thing and assuming there is a tone in your remark " I know the difference between ketoacidosis and ketogenic" aimed at my explaining it I hope you understand what I am saying as I do think this form of communication often leads to people feeling things said are aimed at them when they may just be the persons own thoughts on a subject.

Again I never said Oh do not talk to an expert but I will say no I do not consider the average vet to be an expert on nutrition...just my own experiences with vets when it comes to diets.

This discussion reminds me too much of when my mom had stage IV lung cancer. The oncologist told her day one he could not save her life but he could try to buy her some time. Well as time progressed and it was obvious she was going to die in the near future my dad wanted her to try an alternative treatment, It was either high dose Vitamin C or Hydrogen peroxide it has been too many years to remember which one he wanted her to try. I discussed it with the oncologist and he said " No do not do it as it might not work, it might make you sick and it might kill you" I sat there for a moment and thought wow she is dying so do those things really matter? Then I looked at him and said "oh so you are saying they are like chemo as chemo can do those 3 things too" . He did not think it was funny but it is true.So yeah if I had a dog that was going to die from cancer I would be willing to try the diet as I guess it could do those 3 things too but like some of the dogs at Ketopet sanctuary it could benefit them and halt the cancer...seriously when in that situation I feel what do I have to loose? Nothing comes without risks.

Let me clarify this for this is how I feel it is not how any one else has to feel or agree with but if faced with death I am willing to try a radical diet. If I could not afford the help of an expert it really would not stop me after I researched it. Yes it would be great to have that help but sometimes people do not have the money, of course most people would have a hard time getting the right ratio of fat , protein and carbs to get into and stay in ketosis as even getting too much protein can prevent it.
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Old 10-12-2017, 07:08 AM
 
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Cancer is scary. It is a normal reaction when faced with a stressful situation to make decisions based on how we feel. And that’s ok.

My only issue is with advocating for others based on those feelings and then overstating the science or giving misinformation. Those last two are just downright dangerous.

As for ketopets, their splash page on their website is for PayPal donations. Literally the largest button on the entire page is to give them money. They do not publish research. They are not scientists nor experts on canine nutrition based on their own website. In fact Paul Raybould is a business school graduate and ketopets is just a nonprofit arm of his main for profit company quest nutrition. I only bring this up as a reminder that we should all be skeptical. Skeptical of anyone who claims to have the cure to what ails you as that has traditionally been a place many go to take advantage of others. Ketogenic has its place (and no doubt ketogenic is a literal lifesaver for those with epilepsy) and maybe for some that place is when they have cancer but that website makes claims for the benefits of ketogenic diets for everything from diabetes to cancer to everyday life.

There is no magic pill.
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Old 10-14-2017, 07:50 AM
 
Location: Canada
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Ah, I never got a chance to come back to this thread (work tends to supersede everything ).

ikb0714: One of the things you mentioned - probiotics - is something I do still need to try for Izzy. Heck, I know I need them for myself as well; two years ago I dealt with a life-threatening infection (C. difficile, an extremely antibiotic-resistant 'superbug'...had it for almost 6 months) and while I now take probiotics off and on, I should be taking them daily. So if I introduce these for my dog, it will most likely remind me to take them for myself on a regular basis as well.
I am also noticing that Izzy doesn't seem to have as many digestive problems when I bump up his 'better' dog food (the Freshpet Select) over his Taste of the Wild (TOTW) kibble, which again suggests that this is may be a food allergy. I'm thinking that I may completely wean him from TOTW and replace it with a homemade source, while keeping it in combination with his Freshpet Select...at least for now. Hopefully this, plus the addition of probiotics, will make a difference.

And yes, cancer is scary. Experienced it first-hand several years ago. What's even more difficult is experiencing it in a beloved pet (also been down that road a few times), so the more we can do to help our pets, the better off they - and ultimately, their owners - will be.

P.S. Thanks for the link to that paper. Ironically, my job entails working on scientific research papers(!). While I don't have unlimited access to published papers (PubMed, just the abstracts) often papers will be open access, which is a bonus.

I'm not keen on a full-blown ketonic diet. But that's me. I think that for every dog (and human), there is a specific solution; what works for one dog may not work for another. So it's a matter of experimenting, researching, and deciding what may be best for our furry friends.
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Old 10-14-2017, 05:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by bassetluv View Post
Ah, I never got a chance to come back to this thread (work tends to supersede everything ).

ikb0714: One of the things you mentioned - probiotics - is something I do still need to try for Izzy. Heck, I know I need them for myself as well; two years ago I dealt with a life-threatening infection (C. difficile, an extremely antibiotic-resistant 'superbug'...had it for almost 6 months) and while I now take probiotics off and on, I should be taking them daily. So if I introduce these for my dog, it will most likely remind me to take them for myself on a regular basis as well.
I am also noticing that Izzy doesn't seem to have as many digestive problems when I bump up his 'better' dog food (the Freshpet Select) over his Taste of the Wild (TOTW) kibble, which again suggests that this is may be a food allergy. I'm thinking that I may completely wean him from TOTW and replace it with a homemade source, while keeping it in combination with his Freshpet Select...at least for now. Hopefully this, plus the addition of probiotics, will make a difference.

And yes, cancer is scary. Experienced it first-hand several years ago. What's even more difficult is experiencing it in a beloved pet (also been down that road a few times), so the more we can do to help our pets, the better off they - and ultimately, their owners - will be.

P.S. Thanks for the link to that paper. Ironically, my job entails working on scientific research papers(!). While I don't have unlimited access to published papers (PubMed, just the abstracts) often papers will be open access, which is a bonus.

I'm not keen on a full-blown ketonic diet. But that's me. I think that for every dog (and human), there is a specific solution; what works for one dog may not work for another. So it's a matter of experimenting, researching, and deciding what may be best for our furry friends.
Wow! C. diff is one of the things that I actually worry about, and I am by no means a germophobe, but that is one of the “big scaries” in my book. I am glad to hear you finally shook it. My aunt had it for a similar period of time and when it came back a second time she had to have a fecal transplant. That is when I started getting more interested in probiotics for myself and the family (including the furkids).

If you are starting to look for a new dog food but don’t want to go raw, I highly recommend Honest kitchen. They do have grain free varieties of that is what you decide to do, and we have used them off and one for about 4 or so years now win good results.
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Old 10-15-2017, 07:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
There is a balance tho. . . .these animals evolved by eating our "garbage" (though its sort of ironic that many commercial pet foods are less healthy than garbage) . . .
Ain't that the truth!

Actually, tho, historically, no refrigeration, no canning - garbage was a lot fresher than it is today! Also interesting to read up on people living off dumpster diving. Google "dumpster diving for food" for an interesting read. Then think - in garbage dumps around the world - they don't use dumpsters - and village dogs can dig through the trash to find food. Amazing!
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