Nasal cancer (poop, vet, treatment, puppy)

[Dashdog]

QUOTE=HappyGoLucky123;13567150]Buddy's Mom & tallmomma:

I wasn't addressing you. I wasn't judging you, either. RELAX. I was responding to Dashdog who has been writing about this nasal cancer in dogs subject for two years. Apparently, HOPES is the only one who understands what I am saying.[/quote]


Hmmm now you really have me confused, you come on here saying treatment only causes suffering and people should let their pets die but now you are claiming it was not aimed at any one but me? Interesting as Dash had palliative IMRT and I elected to do IMRT over standard radiation because it did not cause tissue damage or any major side effects and I kept it at palliative to make sure it would not be harmful so 5 days verses 15-20 days of treatment. And your quote above about responding to me because I have been on the thread for 2 years does not make any sense as yes I have been on the thread 2 years, However I had Dash put to sleep in Sept when I felt he was loosing interest in his life. Hey that is rather similar to you putting your dog to sleep when you felt the quality of life was going down hill. And I will say that I could look at you as cruel too for letting it get to the advanced stage that it came through the roof of the mouth as that sounds pretty advanced, but I am not judging you because I am assuming that your dog was enjoying life up to that point which was the same for Dash.

The last 6 months of Dash's Life I had a puppy and I also have an older Dog that Dash grew up with. Well, when I went to work I would gate the puppy into his own room to allow the older dogs to have a peaceful quiet night, every morning when I got home Dash would have somehow gotten into the gated room to be with a puppy. I do not think a dog that is in pain or suffering would be interested in hanging out with a puppy but instead would be snappy and grumpy with the puppy. But he instead wanted to be with the puppy and got in the room while I was gone time and time again.



Next to quote you "Dashdog:
It was you who brought up the comparison to humans and dogs, not me. The "VET felt that Dash was in pain", but not you? Okay, whatever.

Learn to read because here are the words I used "the VET felt there might be some pain" see the word MIGHT BE that is different then saying was in pain. The vet said that because Dash pulled away from him when he tried to touch the wound well Dash use to snap at vets that touched him and I got him past that years ago but he always pulled away from them so to me that does not indicate he was in pain .The vet did not live with Dash I did and I put a raw honey dressing and washed the wound out a couple times a day and he never pulled away or growled at me weird if he was having pain..so the truth is NO one knew but Dash and he was not acting like a dog in pain, maybe he was stoic but I find people that are that way do not suffer like people that have a low thresh hold for pain and cry like a baby when they get a shot.Pain can be tolerable and not cause suffering it depends on your threshold to it.


As for the comparison to people I was only trying to figure out what was causing you to come on here and attack me like that as usually I find people that had a bad experience with a loved ones cancer are very much against treatments and those of us that had an experience that was not horrific are more open to trying as you can always stop treatment if you feel it is too much.

I also have the experience of having worked in a large hospital for 30 years and most of it are on night shift. I have held many hands of people dying of terminal illness not just cancers but ALS,MS, CF, renal failure Heart disease, COPD and it is interesting the conversations these people will have with you during the middle of the night when all the family are gone and things are quiet and they feel safe and feel they can be open and honest because you are not their loved ones and they feel you will understand....so please do not lecture me on what is correct treatment or what suffering is until you have walked in my shoes. I based all my decisions for Dash on what I learned from these dying people and I feel for both he and I made the correct decisions and let him go when I felt he was ready.

I was not even going to respond to you again but when you got on that high horse and said it was about me and the fact I have been posting two years I felt you need to know a few things. I still post because I got to know a lot of the people and I care about them and will offer support to them. To do so No I do not have to agree with what they are or are not doing as that is their choice not mine and I ask that you learn to respect that too. I said Dash was put to sleep in Sept so to gun for me like you seem to be doing is beating a dead horse. I am comfortable with decisions I made and if you cannot accept that then God help you. I am not angry but rather sad that you can only view cancer treatment in a negative way and not allow others to accept it or refuse it based on their own life experiences so I will ask that you just drop it and let people live their own lives as you are no better then any of us here.

These boards have rules and one is that you do not attack others which is what you have been doing to me so grow up and quit trying to make yourself feel better by attacking me.

[SchnauzerDad]

HappyNoLucky123,

Everyone on this board has done everything but wrap their dogs in bubble wrap and then one day...nosebleed. Speaking for myself, I spent endless hours researching "this nasal cancer in dogs subject" to learn more about it. I spent the money to have the CT scans done to prove that his tumor had not progressed into his cranium, that he could still breathe, and that there was no evidence of pain. The truth is, I knew the time was coming but I didn't want to pull the plug before it was time. There was no swelling, no decrease in appetite or activity level, or decrease in affection. Believe me, as much as anyone dreads it, you'll know when it's time. We had a little over a year and he couldn't have asked for a better quality of life. We chose not to do radiation because the oncologist didn't mention quality of life one single time.

This board allowed me to post what we were going through at a given point in time and the cards that we were being dealt on our journey. It was actually kind of comforting to know that someone else knew what we were going through. NOT ONCE did anyone tell me to choose radiation or chemo or anything else! I made those decisions! Why? Because he was MY dog! We made it to page 98 and Dash didn't make it that far. Which brings me to you....

I formed my opinion of you on your first post but, thought you have a right to your opinion. Then, you came on here and point blank said, "People follow your BRAINS not your HEART in making the decision. End the suffering for your poor dog". Did you know my dog or anyone else's on this board? No. It is simply your opinion on what one should do and you emphatically stated your opinion...several times. Actually, it's kind of sad that you have supposedly been reading these posts for a couple of months and then when your dog died you finally chime in to tell people that they are being selfish for doing what THEY think is the right thing. Me, me, me? I, I, I? You're damn right! He was MY dog and MY friend. It offends me (and several others on here I'm sure) that you go after someone that has only offered positive reinforcement and support. 113 pages, 1121 posts, and every one of them have been a value to someone.

"Follow your BRAINS not your HEART". Tell you what, follow your FINGER and click the little red "X" on the top right corner of your screen and find a more appropriate forum for narcissists.

[HappyGoLucky123]

SchnauzerDad:
As you stated "It is simply.." MY OPINION! Why is it okay for people to tell other people "Follow your heart...", but when I say "Follow your brains..." that's not okay. Interesting, isn't it? Dashdog feels attacked by me for mentioning her being on the board for two years, huh? Please go back and read the post by HOPES. It is just a different perspective.

[HappyGoLucky123]

Dashdog:
By the way, 2 different VETS told me the swelling was an abscessed tooth, not nasal cancer. The third VET finally made a correct diagnosis, hence the "cruel" delay.

[HappyGoLucky123]

Originally Posted by Hopes

As someone who lost a mother to cancer, I can totally relate to what you're saying. I truly believe the treatment killed her sooner.

I seriously doubt that I would have treatment myself---it would depend on the type of cancer and the stage it was caught.

While I would never treat a pet for cancer, I would never judge anyone who chooses to treat their pets.

I sure didn't judge my mother for having hope when there was no hope.

I think few people can just toss up their hands and accept that death is eminent.

[Dashdog]

I will say that Hopes post is a good one as she is not judging others or calling them selfish. She understands that the decision to treat a terminal illness is up to the person involved be it for themselves or a beloved pet. and she is able to express that in a way that does not judge others.

I agree with that 100% and have no problem supporting someone no matter what their decision. If someone decides no treatment I am fine with that and can support them. If they decide on treatment I can support that even if it is not something I myself would choose to do, as the choice is theirs not mine.

Their experience will be different then mine so therefore while some had horrible experiences and there was a lot of suffering involved with treatment others had a positive experience where pain was controlled and quality of life remained good and when it went down hill they opted to stop treatment. The point is we will all see treatment in our own eyes based on our experience. I do not think anyone here let their dog suffer and No one here has the right to say they did unless they happened to know that dog and to be there with that dog and saw that suffering first hand.

Happy, Hopes statement "I sure didn't judge my mother for having hope when there was no hope. "

Is one that I am glad to see you quote because that is why you have offended people you are judging them because they are not doing what you seem to assume is the only correct thing to do. By calling us selfish you are judging us do you not see that? They do have hope which is not being selfish it is part of grieving. But I do not agree with the part about' there was no hope" as there is always hope as it changes as the disease changes. If you really spend time with terminal people you see the changes that hope takes but even so it is hope.

Anytime someone is told they or a love one even a loved pet has cancer (or any terminal illness) The moment they hear those words the grief process takes hold. You start to grieve long before death occurs. In doing so yes there is a period of Denial and what goes with that is Hope. You cling to the hope that maybe with treatment you will be one of those rare miracles as yes there are such cases. As the cancer keeps advancing Hope remains and you keep clinging to it but in most cases it too is changing. It may go from I hope for a cure, To I hope for more time, to I hope there is no suffering to I hope for a peaceful death. But it is still hope despite all the changes in it. It is all part of the grief process so maybe stating it this way will make it easier to see why it is not right to come on a thread such as this where people have hope and try to take that away from them or call them selfish for it.

Happy you are entitled to your opinion and yes I understand your opinion based on the experiences you have had with cancer but this was not the thread to come on and judge people who feel different then you do. I hope you understand I did not call you cruel when I discussed your dog. I did say I could say that because that is what you seem to be saying to some of us but I did not do it because for all I know your dog may have had an OK quality of life despite the tumor eating into the oral cavity.( and you had not told us about the misdiagnosis so it would be wrong for me to judge you as I was not there nor am I you with your past experiences) As I have said several times in posts to you not all of us have the same pain thresholds so while something may sound cruel or painful one cannot really say that unless it is your experience.


I knew a man with ALS he was at the point where he was often in pain when people moved him and was paralyzed so to survive would need a trach and a ventilator. That was at that point where I met him and me and everyone involved with his care thought "why would anyone with ALS at that stage want a trach and ventilator? If it was me let me die, why prolong the suffering?" But the choice was his and he did it and he lived another 7 years. I can say all of us involved in his care to this day would say I would never do that as what quality of life did he have? Yet this man went to live in the sub acute unit at our hospital and was soon everyone's favorite, He was a joy to talk too and he somehow found quality and joy in what seemed to us to should have been a life void of quality. He told me he had no regrets as by getting his trach and his ventilator he got a second family that he adored and that was all of us. He said that all he went through was worth the time he spent with all of us. I still don't quite understand that and yes I still would choose death if that had been me. But I did respect the man and even the choice as it was the right choice for him. Loved him too and I know if there is a heaven he is up there with Dash visiting him often and that makes me smile. I use to take the dogs to go visit him and he and the dogs loved those visits

I tell you that story because I want you to see even what I see with my eyes and may feel in my heart is suffering or a life with no quality that unless it is me it is happening too it is not my call to make as maybe the person or even animal does not view it the same way I do. This man didn't and since it was his life I respected his right to make his own choice.

I feel people should have the pros and cons about choices such as treatment for cancer but after that the decision is theirs and no one has the right to judge them or try to take away hope and instead should swallow their own feelings, beliefs and support the decision. If someone does ask for an opinion then fine offer yours without judgment and if they reject it let them be as they will do what is right for them and that is how it should be To say well with many advanced cancers death is eminent, True but then again with Life death is eminent.

I feel everyone here has put their dog down when they felt quality of life was fading.That it is wrong to assume that a dog who loves to still go on walks, eat,play,hang out with human or animal buddies, wiggle its butt or do wild tail wagging when its owner comes home is suffering just because it has cancer and had treatment for it. The above things all are quality of life issues and until you start crossing those things off the list there is quality of life which to many is worth the cost and maybe a painful procedure. Unless you walk in the shoes of the actual person that is there that's reality it is it is not your place to judge quality of life especially from reading posts on this thread.

By the way Happy I am not feeling attacked because you said I have posted here for 2 years but rather I am curious why that made you singled me out so much that you mentioned it when you told two others it was not about them it was about me as I had posted about the subject for two years..It was that post that seemed to say I am talking to Dashdog not the rest of you as she is selfish getting Dash treatment making him suffer.Yet your very first post seemd to attack anyone that got chemo or radiation for their dog. Or is it just that fact that I am the one that has perhaps challenged you by responding to you? As I said I am not mad nor do I hate you but I do not appreciate someone thinking they know more then I do about Dash , his treatment or quality of life when they have never laid eyes on him and then topping it off by saying he was suffering when he was not and that I was selfish which I was not as I did put him down when that joy he had for life started to fade.As I said I am not mad but I do like to know what drives people to make such statements to a group of people grieving a death or coping with an illness.It comes across to me a a cruel statement and you could have started a different thread and posted you opinions but instead picked this one and in doing so told us we were selfish when many of our dogs did enjoy a period of improved quality of life after treatment. I just don't get what drives some one to do that??

OK Time to go get some sleep. Hope anyone reading this long post understands the point I am trying to make. sorry for any spelling errors as I al so sleep deprived from working all night that I tend to not see them until the next day. Now go eat some Easter eggs (especially the yummy chocolate ones)! and enjoy the day.

[HappyGoLucky123]

Dashdog:
My head is spinning...where do you find the time? My post was in response to you. It wasn't meant to single you out for attack. I'm concerned that suffering dogs lives are being prolonged. If my posts saved just one dog suffering from nasal cancer from bearing any more pain, then I'm happy. Being the narcissist that I've been accused of being, I'm sure it did. People can make their own choices known, dogs cannot, so why "prolong the suffering?"

[HappyGoLucky123]

Oh, and Happy Easter!

[Dashdog]

Happy trust me I do understand what you are trying to say as yes I agree Dogs or people should not have to suffer However, treatment does not always prolong suffering. I am glad I could do for Dash what I could and let him go when that joy left his life. To be honest I do wish people had that option of saying OK I had enough now help me die as no one should HAVE to suffer or have death prolonged in such a case.

Dash and Jazz did agility and my new boy is taking agility classes. When he rushes up the A frame and stops and looks at everyone with that big sight hound grin on his face before racing down it to do something totally crazy rather then do what he is being told to do and everyone bursts out laughing at his silly antics it is so like Dash. Yes, when I see him stop on the A frame and give that look I can picture Dash up on the top of the A-frame telling him "Oh go for the laughs and do this...."

Dash loved to make people laugh and at agility demos for retirement homes he would always do something crazy and leaving me as the straight man (or woman I should say) and the crowds would be rolling with laughter so to see Dazzle do it in a way keeps Dash alive and with me .Who knows maybe those 6 months he had with Dazzle thanks to his treatment he really was being his mentor. Maybe when he got in the gated room while I was at work he was telling Dazzle all about ways he could make me smile and laugh and take care of me as I know if Dogs could talk Dash would have said it was he taking care of me.He was so very bonded to me. He did his best to make me laugh when I had melt downs when my Mom was dying and when my niece was killed. That yes he probably thinks he rescued me instead of me rescuing him years before.

. I know dogs are not humans but I think as humans we do not give them the credit they deserve as I feel they understand more about life then we think they do. Based on that If Dash had been human I do feel he would have attempted treatment as he would have been like the stoic person doing it not to prolong his life because he was afraid of death but to hold off the suffering and pain that he knew would come to me as a result of his death. He was a dog that would have laid down his own life to protect ME so I too would have done as much for him and if I could give him another year of life and have it be a good quality then yes I would attempt it. As I said if it had not seemed a good quality I would have put him to sleep the moment I felt that. Medicine is changing and some of the new treatments allow for a much better quality of life for cancer patients but the choice is still theirs and in the case of an animal it is rather like a young child that cannot say yes or no so we become their voice and make those decisions for them and hopefully are weighing the animal involved in the decisions. Had it been my other older dog Jazz who I love as much maybe even a tad bit more I do not think I would have done treatment as she is fear aggressive so very stressed by vets and she is a drama queen as if you step on a paw she will act as if you tried to kill her so unlike Dash she is not as your user name Happy Go Lucky. Jazz did have a nerve sheath sarcoma on her chest while I was dealing with Dash's cancer and yes I had the vet remove it but told him that I would not put her though any follow up treatment which may have offered if he had not been able to surgically get all of it or at least feel he did as I said she would not tolerate it like Dash would so it would be more then I could ask of her.. Dash was a tough guy and I knew he would do well and be able to maintain a good quality of life until he was ready to quit and so that is what we did. I think a lot of the others feel that way too so I hope that answers the question "why prolog suffering?" as I do not feel we prolonged suffering but we did prolong life and when each day is a gift. Why not give that gift when you can afford it and you are NOT causing suffering? Yes, everyday I did have with my silly stoic tough guy Dash was a true gift and I am glad I gave us both that gift of almost 1.5 years as it was a great time most of it anyway.

I may be a bit odd in the fact that death does not frighten me and I do not see it as a terrible thing but rather see it as another step in life. I believe we are spiritual beings having a human experience so death is not the end. I really like talking to people that are dying and hearing their story and listening to how they are feeling during this time in their lives and believe me most people do not want to hear so I find many people I meet happy to talk and to have some one listen to what they are feeling as death inches near. yes it is very sad but death can also be beautiful as you do feel that spirit leaving the body. But despite feeling that way I also see each day as a precious gift that can and will be taken from all of us in the blink of an eye so if I can have more of those gifts and feel well enough to see them as a gift will I will accept them. I see each day as that precious gift thanks to every dying person that has shared with me and I understand why they often do hold on. There is a time for death as there was for birth and until it is that time for an individual who is to say any different?

Happy I hope that cancer leaves you alone for a while as it does sound like you have had more then your share with it and as I said before I am sorry that your experiences with the treatments in loved ones led to more suffering as yes Chemo can do that no doubt in my mind. But there are some great treatments appearing everyday and while some may not cure it they may allow for control for years without all the suffering. The new genetic drugs are impressive, My Mom took Tarceva and while it worked it was fantastic and she had her old life back and felt great. It destroyed her actual lung tumor but only slowed the liver mets so she died with no active cancer in her lungs nor did she suffer all the breathing issues that go with end stage lung cancer and actually the mets in her liver were not yet at the point of causing pain or other issues but we think she actually died of a blood clot to her lungs as a result from sitting around due to chemo induced fatigue. So yea the darn chemo did probably kill her. The problem remains that cancer is great at mutating and showing how true survival of the fittest really is and sadly it seems to be the fittest so it eventually outsmarts the genetic based drugs. Knowing how you feel about chemo I will share this at one point my Mom asked her oncologist about an alternative treatment. He told her not to do it as it might not work, might make you sick or might even kill you. I looked at him and said "Oh so you are saying it is just like chemo? As all that is true of chemo too" Oh boy did I p--s him off but sadly it is true. So people need to weigh the facts and decide what they are willing to deal with and use that when deciding a treatment plan for themselves or their pet there is nothing wrong with letting nature take its course or with trying treatment as it is an individual thing and we will all have a different experience with it as no two beings are alike.

Got to go eat that chocolate Easter egg now..death by chocolate now there is one I could do!

[joycez]

Hello Everyone,
Just want to give an update my Sheldon...he went to tufts and have more tests done which we have not gotten the results back yet but its getting to the point where i dont think the results/diagnosis even matter. Sheldon is sick and every day it becomes more and more apparent. He has had 2 pretty bad nose bleeds where i almost brought him to the ER but it was like soon as i got dressed and got my keys to bring him in the bleeding would stop - it was like he was telling me -"no i dont wanna go yet" He now eats off a plate because his nose is so sensitive and would bump the edge of the bowl and he would just lose interest in eating. And yes Dashdog i think you are right about the tramodol because when i dont give it to him he is way more alert and hungry in the am. i am going to check with the vet today on cutting the dose in half. I find comfort in reading everyone's blogs and knowing im not alone in this but then there are times where i avoid logging on because i know i spend the whole time crying so hard over everyones ( and my own dog) struggles. I am looking for some more advice though - how bad is a nose bleed? like where do i draw the line like that its too much blood? and quality of life seem okay right now - sheldon loves his walks and waits anxiously for me to walk in the door. Even over Easter weekend he visited with alot of friends and family and they all said how they dont believe "he's that sick" but then hell sneeze a ton of blood and snot and they'll freak out...I am afraid that i will have to be making a decision soon about where to draw the line..i dont want my rottie to suffer but i know he still loves so much! He even still sniffs/smells things like a mad man!
As for the ongoing posts between everyone (mostly happy and dashdog) i have to say that i have alot of people in my life putting pressure on me to make decisions for Sheldon. Some are saying just end the sufferring while others are saying to do all that i can..its hard to hear people's opinions ( especially if its something you dont wanna hear) but to be honest with you im not looking for opinions..im looking for support. At the end of the day Sheldon is my dog and i will be the only one that can make the final call..i just hope i make the right one and at the right time. you are all in thoughts and prayers...
xo joyce and sheldon