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I am sorry to hear about Dusty, you have my heart felt sympathies.
I hope you can trust in yourself that you did the right thing as trying to second guess these decisions only makes us crazy. I really believe that people need to listen to that inner voice and when it tells you something is wrong or it is time listen as that inner voice knows.
For others that come along and read this yes pacing and panting especially at night when the dog would normally be asleep is if nothing else a sign that something is stressing them. Often that is pain so it is worth a trip to the vet if it continues for a few days.
When I took Dash in that was one of the things I told my vet that besides the reverse sneezing, snorting and the two sneezes of very small amouts of blood he was pacing and panting all night.
Dash has been congetsed again the past two days but this morning when I got home greeted me with a big bloody sneeze that seems to have cleared him up. There has been no more blood. It is an up and down road where one day he is clear and I am saying Yippie!!! and the next day he sounds like a coffee perculator he is so stuffy sounding. His over all attitude remains great and he is back to being focused on food so is his piggey self. Overall he just really seems to feel great!I do hope the rest of the pooches are feeling the same.
If your dog is pacing and panting at night, try giving them a deep massage, working your fingers along the spine and then rubbing into the legs and around the head. Pressure helps them to relax.
Dashdog, I know you like the Neoplasene, but is there any possibility it is making the dog worse? You may want to try taking him off it for a while to see what happens.
today is the first day that tillie has been bleeding - both nostrils earlier today. i noticed her nose just dripping, kind of gooey but definitely bloodier than she has been. before i could get a warm cloth to wipe it away she licked it up. now, as she sleeps quietly, her nose is dripping again. i have been thinking that this would happen and then i would go to dr scanlan to try the neoplasene. some of the recent posts have made me think twice about this so i am writing again for a Dash update. ( let me remind you that tillie went to dr ayl for IMRT about 4 weeks or so after Dash finished so i see him as a model of things to come.) If the bleeding is intermittent i am inclined to wait. If the bleeding becomes non-stop...I guess we are waiting for other signs: loss of appetite or energy, restlessness at night, etc. She has, in fact, been sleeping well the past few weeks. Maybe we just keep cleaning up after the pups, or running around the house urging them to rest their noses on a nice towel instead of the nice rug. I visited a friend with a puppy over the weekend and i had forgotten that most dogs don't have a regular stream of stuff dripping from their noses.
I know that noone can tell us what to do but i do enjoy hearing other's stories. thanks.
For the bleeding: Our vet has recommended Neo-Synephrine nasal decongestant. It causes the blood vessels to constrict and this helps to stop the bleeding.
Prednisone (a drug that I normally hate) has also stopped the bleeding in our dog. In fact, she was diagnosed 18 months ago. I'm surprised that nobody else on this thread has put their dog on prednisone.
I'm sorry that I keep saying this, but it would make me very uncomfortable to put that Neoplasene up a dog's nose. From everything I've read, it sounds like an irritant and it could make the bleeding worse.
As I said before, dogs can actually bleed out from nasal cancer. Please know, that if that happens, it is not painful for them. If it happens to my friend's dog, I will put her in a quiet spot and hold her until she passes.
I would much rather have a dog die peacefully in the comfort of her own home. And if you happen to have other dogs, make sure they see the other dog's body so they understand what has happened. It's terrible when a dog sees its companion go to the vet one day and never return. Can you imagine?
All the best,
Woofers
Last edited by Woof Woof Woof!; 12-01-2008 at 07:04 PM..
Woofers, Thanks for your suggestion. I tend to gauge if I do the neoplasene or hold it longer based on what I am seeing. If Dash has a discharge that is just bloody I will give him his dose on time which is now every 3-4 days, if the secretions look more like blood tinged egg whites ( or snot ropes) I will hold it a few days longer as I take that as a sign we are going too fast and his body is stepping up mucus production to get rid of the toxins from cellular die off. I think his current off and on bleeding is a result of his "alien birth" as that was a huge chunck of tissue so there has to be a wound in his nose so he will not get his dose this week and I will wait to see how he is on the weekend. The neoplasene does cause an inflammation in the cancer cells but not the healthy tissues and Dash does not seem to be bothered by it and is happy, breathing through his nose again, He is in no pain. Yes he does seem to itch his nose the day after a dose but alot of times wounds that are healing itch as well as inflammation so it is nothing bad. I know you make your statements out of concern for the dog but I would not do anything I feel is causing my dog to suffer alot of pain or discomfort. I am really fasinated by what has been happening since starting the neoplasene and Dash is happy and doing very well. Working in health care I make my decisions by lookng at a patient and basing what I do on what I see and I have adopted that with Dash's care too.
Tallmomma, I made the decision to see Dr. Scanlan after I took Dash to see DR. Ayl when he too started bleeding out of both sides of his nose, at the time he had a bad nasal infection and we did not know if the cancer was active or not so I decided he was going to start the neoplasene just in case. He sneezed out a chunk of tissue the 2nd week and then a huge chunk of tissue that has a large dark section on it about 2 weeks ago . That last one I call the "alien birth" and it has really opened up his nasal passages. He had continued to bleed through both sides of his nose BEFORE the alien birth so twice I gave him a half a dose of the neoplasene down his right side when I did the left side. I have had no more blood out the right. He has days where he wakes up congested but usually after his afternoon walk he has cleared up and some days he has no discharge , some days some blood and some days what I call snot ropes or egg white like snot all out the left side . Rather then keep calling Dr. Scanlan I see what is happening on the day he is due for a dose then either give it or hold it longer as I told Woofers. I feel I must be doing something right by the results I am seeing. Dash is feeling great and back to eating very well and going on long walks, acting playful, even has a girl friend that is a 9 month old schnauzer at the park. For a long time he was sleeping with his front legs stretched out in front of him and his back legs stretched straight out behind him well now since that alien birth and the drastic improvement is his breathing he is sleeping on his side or even on his back like he use too. Very little if any snoring. I have no regrets about starting the neoplasene when I did except that now Dr. Ayl will not know if the IMRT results lasted longer or not but I had to make the decison that I felt was best for Dash and I think I was correct. I can not say if we have stopped the cancer but I can hope that we are at least controling it -only time will tell.
As for bleeding Dash has only had one what I will call a major bleed and that was back before we started the IMRT all the other bleeding has been minor and is just annoying as he wipes his nose on things or sneezes it on things but there was only that one time where it bled so bad he looked like a slasher had gotten ahold of him. To be honest I was expecting alot more bleeding with the neoplasene then what I have seen. Back In April I had exchanged E-Mail with some one that had given it to her dog with nasal cancer and she had alot of bleeding but if I recall she got oral neoplasene in her food and was not getting nose drops. Her dog did die as the cancer had spread.
I am happy with what I am seeing with Dash and I do not regret doing the IMRT as that did debulk the tumor if nothing else which I think then gives the neoplasene a better chance. He really has not suffered from any of the treatments and I am very thankful for that.
I am curious as it seems that the majority of dogs have the cancer in the left side, I wonder why that is?
WOOFER - i will try the neosynephrine and keep you posted. any idea how many doses are necessary to show some results?
it is not likely that tillie will have an "alien birth". when i saw dr scanlan i asked her about dogs sneezing out parts of the tumor and she said she had seen it but it would likely not happen for tillie given that that she had surgery to clean out the nasal cancer in october, 2006. she doesn't seem to have a measurable tumor, just cancer cells floating around amidst the re-grown healthy cells in her nose. i think i am understanding that correctly.
tillie's blood output seems to be similar to dash - no slasher incidents - just dripping. and, like dash, she is still enjoying a great quality of life, including sleeping well and often. it is just upsetting for us to watch the bleeding appear when, last week, it was not there.
(btw, tillie's cancer was primarily in her left nostril but had started to show signs in the right nostril when we first treated her over 2 years ago.)
Phenylephrine, aka Neo-Synephrine, is a decongestant. It works by shrinking blood vessels in the sinuses, nose, and chest. It is NOT a treatment for cancer! It's results should be immediate but DO NOT use it for over 7 days. Well, that's for humans. I'm not sure about animals. While it may constrict the blood vessels to stop the drip, if used too often it can damage the tissue in the nose.
Phenylephrine, aka Neo-Synephrine, is a decongestant. It works by shrinking blood vessels in the sinuses, nose, and chest. It is NOT a treatment for cancer! It's results should be immediate but DO NOT use it for over 7 days. Well, that's for humans. I'm not sure about animals. While it may constrict the blood vessels to stop the drip, if used too often it can damage the tissue in the nose.
Yes, that's true. But you can use it to stop the bleeding. It is good to have on hand for an emergency.
Nick has had a weird few weeks. He had a meltdown just after his birthday. He couldn't breathe through his nose and he panicked and kept us up all night for two nights. Then he started oozing snot and blood from his GOOD nostril. Great. We took him to the vet and found out he had a raging infection. His White Blood Cell count was double what it should be. A heavy dose of antibiotics brought his count to normal. We also took him off all Neo for a week to give his body a chance to rest and try to reduce the mucus. The blood pretty much stopped, but the mucus continues in varying degrees. His tumor side is almost completely dry (as it has been for months), but his "good" side is a faucet.
We took him in for another x-ray yesterday to see if anything had changed. Things didn't look any different from the last one we had in October. The vet said his nasal cavities actually look normal. There is no apparent erosion of the turbinates or septum. That's odd, because Nick's original tumor (diagnosed by rhinoscopy) was 2 cm into his right nostril right above his canine tooth. Usually, when this type of tumor spreads, it will be locally invasive and spread back into the sinus and/or across into the other nostril through the septum. It's not as prone to metasticize as other tumors. However, given Nick's bleeding and discharge from his left side, it suggests possible tumor activity on his left side, even though the original tumor hasn't eaten over there. If it's there, it must have metasticized. Unusual for Nick's tumor type, but possible. The vet tried to get a good view of the sinuses, but it was very hard to see that area. The only way to know exactly what's going on is to have a CT scan or another scope, but that wouldn't change our treatment, so we're not spending another $1k.
Meanwhile, Nick is still very happy and active. He has taught himself how to mouth breathe and sleep at the same time, so he no longer panics when his nose is full of mucus.
So, we're not entirely sure how to feel. His original tumor still hasn't eaten through any bone, which is a bit of a miracle, but something is causing Nick to have major discharge and minor occasional bleeding from his left side. The vet said we'll just have to assume there are cancer cells present and treat them like we did the original tumor (which is mucus-free and never bleeds).
So, now Nick gets Neo drops in both sides and has restarted his Oral Neo. He's doing very well so far.
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at the park. For a long time he was sleeping with his front legs stretched out in front of him and his back legs stretched straight out behind him well now since that alien birth and the drastic improvement is his breathing he is sleeping on his side or even on his back like he use too. Very little if any snoring. I have no regrets about starting the neoplasene when I did except that now Dr. Ayl will not know if the IMRT results lasted longer or not but I had to make the decison that I felt was best for Dash and I think I was correct. I can not say if we have stopped the cancer but I can hope that we are at least controling it -only time will tell.
Nick Update
