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I'm at an impasse and I sincerely need your help and advice. Last week my "velcro dog" (Pete) had a serious sneezing fit, about 6 or 7 of them in a row. Once he was done I noticed he managed to fling dog snot clear across the kitchen. I grabbed a white paper towel and when I wiped it up there was a little bloody tint to it. I shrugged it off to a ruptured blood vessel from the sneezing fit. Unfortunately a week later the sneezing hasn't stopped, nor has the blood. He's had bouts of reverse sneezing for years but now they are getting more frequent and severe.
I took him to the vet on Saturday where they ran all the usual tests, chest x-rays, stool, etc. Everything has come back normal. After speaking with my vet and based upon what I've read here (and in numerous online vet publications) I'm pretty sure my best buddy has nasal cancer.
My vet recommended that I take him in to a specialist and have a CT or MRI done and the rhinoscopy to acertain if it is indeed a tumor. The problem with that is I just don't have the money to pay $1400 to just diagnose if it is cancer, let alone the additional cost for chemo or radiation therapy if it is. If push comes to shove I could take out a loan but with the amount of debt I already have it would put a serious financial strain on my family.
On one hand I feel like I'm letting him down because I can't afford to help him. He is such a wonderful dog, really the best. The best of the best. On the other I feel like if I did come up with the money I would be subjecting him to months of painful treatments only for my own selfish desire to keep him around just a little bit longer.
I guess my question is which is better, to give up his last few really good months for a therapy that will make him sick and has no guarantee of saving him or just let him truly enjoy the last few months of his life?
Sorry about the long post, I'm just really distraught and guess I needed a place to vent.
First I want to say to everyone that has put posts on here since I did a few days ago " thank you for the kind words and suggestions". I have never felt so much compassion from people I don't even know. We are all on a tough road together, trying to figure out what is best for our beloved friends.
Chol, Thanks for posting that info on the bud diet. I will look into it tonight. I am sure it couldn't hurt.
Mr. Pete's dog, I am sorry to here your buddy is bleeding out of his nose. Nasal cancer is tough to diagnose, and once you know, it is tough to choose your options. The only true way to find out how aggressive the cancer is, is to get a sample of it. The cat scan will identify a tumor. But I am not sure and I doubt it will identify the grade of the tumor. For example are the cells highly differentiated and multiplying at a high rate. Cat scans don't determine that. But a cat is good to know exactly where to radiate the tumor. I would skip the Rhino for now. If you can afford the Cat, that will determine if there is a tumor in there or not. As far as sickness, I have heard mixed reviews on the nasal cancer. My dog had radiation done on the shoulder a few months ago, he was fine. I know the money sucks. The treatment can run up to $5000 depending on how may visits you go on. Some of these cancer treatment centers have endowment funds to help those who can't afford the whole treatment. This is something you may want to look into. The best news to know is if he does not have the disease. Maybe if you can stretch it and find out if he has it, then make a decision from there. Keep us informed, please. BTW I have found this board a good place to vent, you will have friends here.
Bear is a very nice looking dog. Love The title of your photo/post. There is alot of research supporting diet as a control for many cancers and alot of belief that if nothing else the right diet which tends to be high protein very low carbs can slow down cancer. Great book written for humans called Beating cancer with Nutrition.
Petedog, so sorry to hear about Pete. First there is no right or wrong thing to do as each person does what is best for them in their situation. I think the first thing you have to look at is quality of life for Pete . I opted for palliative radiation based on that and as I have said a hundred times with it being done using IMRT there really were no bad side effects, Even the dry eye seems to be very mild. But it was expensive and I will not deny that. I doubt if I would have done it if it would have put me in a financial struggle as it is not going to save his life. Palliative is about comfort and it did improve his quality of life so my goal was met.
Even the surgery and the 20 days of definitive radiation usually only buy time they do not tend to cure the cancer. So when you try to rationalize things do not think Oh if I take out a big loan and put a strain on my family we will save Pete as you probably will only buy time and there is no guarantee it will be good time or even that he would survive the treatment as they do have to put dogs under to do radiation and some do die from that or develope kidney failure form the frequent anesthesia drugs.
Only you would know if that was worth the strain it could put on your family. There are other options that are less expensive, diet as Chol is using can help slow cancers. There is metronomic therapy which Dash is also on that really is not that expensive, he gets piroxicam everyday and low dose Cytoxan every other day and he tolerates it great. It is not the same as Chemo as Chemo attacks and kills cancer but metronomic therapy is what is called antiangiogenic which means it helps stop the tumor from forming a new blood supply so it starves . There are some great atricles about the NAVY Protocol named after a dog or The Wisconsin protocol that talk about antiangiogenesis. Even just the piroxicam alone can slow it down and would also keep a dog comfortable but not all dogs tolerate the drug well which is true with any drug or treatment as they are all individuals and react to things differently. Some people just use prednisone and have good results buying time . Piroxicam, Cytoxan and prednisone are all pills that you would give the dog at home.
Then there is neoplasene which you can read about in many of the above posts but be forwarned it is not for the faint of heart as it will cause your dog to get stuffed up and that can be hard to see and it will cause the nose to bleed more if it is working as once the tumor starts pulling away from the tissue it causes a wound in there that can bleed for quite awhile, There is also the issue of finding a vet that is willing to use it but it is not expensive as a bottle cost about $40.00 and last for quite awhile. But for many it is a total struggle getting the doses into the nose!
There are also all the holistic things such as Hoxsey and Power mushrooms that help build up the immune system so it can fight the cancer.Treatment does not have to be expensive and any one of them can buy time or not buy time as no one but God knows what the results will be for any given individual. And because it is all up to God there are always the rare dogs that live for quite a long time with no treatment of any kind. Keep in mind when a vet or a doctor say you have 6 months or what ever time they give you that is an average or stastic not a given. Some will die a week or month later and some 6 months and some may live for a few years.
Cancer patients usually die from one of three things Poor nutrition, Infection, or organ failure from adavanced cancer. From the experience with my mom's cancer I can say that infection really can lower that survival time as had I not known what I do my mom would have died about 5 months into her treatment as she had both a urinary tract infection and a bad pneumonia that caused a total white out in one lung on the X-ray.Yet her oncologist missed it and argued with me about ordering the tests and would only order the urine one. I had to then pester the pulmonary doctor for a chest X-ray had I not my mom would probably would have developed sepsis and died. ( I deal with alot of sepsis at work so know what to look for). It opened my eyes as to why survival times may be as low as they are. If a sick person or animal does not have an advocate that knows about what to be looking for the doctors tend to write eveything off to it just being the cancer as was the case with my moms doctor. If Pete starts having yellow, tan, green snot get him on some antibiotics as colored snot means infection.
Feel free to vent here or ask more questions if needed and please do not beat yourself up if you can not afford to do the treatments some of us have done.You have to do what is best for you and no one here should tell you that it is the wrong choice. I would never dream of telling a cancer patient that opts for no treatment that what they are doing is wrong as that is their choice and only they know if it is right or wrong. I personally think the biggest problem with cancer treatments and treatments for most diseases is they do not address the cause and what put the body out of balance and fix it instead they just put bandages on symptoms. Think about it as we can not even cure the common cold? I will be adding you and Pete to my ever growing prayer list. Jan
Petedog,
I have a few thoughts for you. First, know that everyone here knows the heartbreak associated with a nasal cancer diagnosis. There's no other description for it except that it sucks. Your dog's symptoms sound a lot like my Scout's. He had been reverse sneezing for years, it got worse, and then he began bleeding.
Anyway, some thoughts that might help you a little in your decisions.
1. As hipstix said, I would also skip the rhinoscopy. The type of cancer cells doesn't seem to matter for treatment, only the size and location seem important. We did a rhinoscopy and it actually led to false hope as the vet thought he got all the tumor out because he couldn't see anymore. Turns out it was just further up than the rhinoscope could "reach."
2. The CT scan cost us about $700 and was necessary for radiation. A crazy amount of money just for a diagnosis. As someone else said, however, many regional and teaching hospitals have scholarships for dogs with a good to excellent prognosis (which, surprisingly, my dog was given). Fifty percent of our treatment was paid for by Angell Memorial in Boston. (We are comfortably middle class with little debt and we still were given assistance.) It might be worth looking into before making your decision.
3. Finally, if you can find one, I'd highly recommend that you see a veterinary oncologist, even if you don't want to do a CT scan or "treat" the cancer. They know how to make a dog more comfortable and extend their lives when dealing with nasal cancer (mine even mentioned being able to do something to physically stop the nasal bleeding--don't remember what it was because I was too scared about everything else). My local vet is virtually clueless about nasal cancer, while I feel my oncologist has a host of options for helping us through the disease. I found the appointment cost to be reasonable. I think I paid $125 for an initial 1.5 hour appointment, with a minimal fee for follow up appointments.
Finally, as everyone else has said, whatever you choose to do, your dog will understand. They always do--that's why we love them so much. We have chosen not to do a follow up CT scan following treatment for strictly financial reasons. It's been difficult, but I know Scout would readily appreciate a steak dinner and a nightful of pats.
Best wishes, and feel free to vent more or ask more questions.
I could not add to the valuable advises from Dashdog and eginalsk.
I have just begun this fight.
My decision for Bear and me is not to go for Traditional Treatments considering the given circumstances for Bear and me.
I wish you would take some more time to make decision for further tests as well as letting him down.
The point I shall consider for letting Bear go will be when Bear has to suffer the pains most of days or his both nostrils are blocked completely so he can not breathe through his nose or the cancer is apparently developed to brain or lung so the worst situation will come very soon, or he refuses to eat for consecutive several days.
I am not seeking miracle desperately but I would not exclude that either
while Bear and I are doing our best day by day.
.................................................. .........................
I made a little sculpture of Bear while I was nursing him.
I am not artist or something but I really want to have something to keep of Bear so I tried to make it as realistic as possible.
Pete, Scout, Dash, Sunny, Tillie
if you'd feel like to have one like this, send me some pictures by e.mail.
I 'd like to try to make these guys' little (7" length x 4" Hight) sculptures.
It may take several week even months because I will do this in my spare time.
It's priceless so you can not pay for this.
Hello all, I was wondering if any of you are dealing with the end-stages of this. My Coco is. This was not diagnosed until late, and he does have the sneezing, but also now seizures, which are progressing in length and severity. That said, he, in-between those times, acts just fine. He is still eating and able to go to the bathroom just fine. He still wants to play fetch, go for rides, and if he thinks we aren't looking, get in the trash. His fave. I guess I am asking if anyone has any idea of where/what is going to happen next? Or perhaps I just needed to touch base with people that also are going through the same thing since I know no one locally who is. I don't want him to suffer, but I don't want to "pull the plug" until it's absolutely necessary either, make sense? Thanks for reading/listening. Appreciated all the stories in past posts, made me cry some of them.
The situation you are facing now should be the hardest.
I also may confront the situation like this someday.
I am going to find one good Oncologist for Bear for the preparation of the final stage including Pain Management.
I wish you would meet one Good Oncologist for Coco who can give the practical advice for you and Coco.
Since Bear is not in that stage so far, I can not give you any useful advice.
My prayer is with you and Coco.
Thank you. I will look around and see if there are any good oncologists around, as you suggested. I am not terribly hopeful in finding one though. I have a call into my regular vet though to discuss pain management at this point. He is very understanding and I know if he can he will help us find an onconcologist if he really thinks it would help too. We have tried seizure medications and these seem to make his quality of life even worse. He just stumbles all over the place, and worse, he bumps his poor nose, which is almost completely raw tissue now. It would be so much easier if he didn't have days, sometimes weeks, with no symptoms other than the raw nose.
Thanks again, it sure is nice to not be alone in this.
I have to get going but wanted to jump on here and say Chol you may not be a trained artist but you are an artist just the same as that is beautiful!
Dogmomof11, When my previous dog had Lymphoma and heart disease someone told me to make a list of her favorite things and to scratch each thing she was no longer able to enjoy off and when the list got down to one or nothing left then it was time as my dog would not have a good quality of life if she could not enjoy her favorite things. I think if a dog is out there doing its normal things it is not in alot of pain so no it is not the right time, Dogs have a way of telling you when it is time.
Try not to focus of what lies ahead and just enjoy each day with your dog.When we focus on the end of life our life becomes about that and we miss out of what is happening today. Today is a gift to be enjoyed by you and your dog. That was a lesson I learned with my mom's cancer as in the beginning when all I could think of was my mom was going to die, it became my focus. My life was misearble but when I got past that I was able to enjoy life and spend quality time with my mom as though she would be here forever. We get too caught up in our fear of death and what will happen to us after our loved one dies and miss what is happening at the moment. To spend that time worring is a waste as we can not change what will happen but we can enjoy the time we have.
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Need your advice please
