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An acquaintance of mine has used a shock collar on two of her dogs. In each case, she used it long enough to train the dog to come when called, and then never had to use it again when the dogs were off-leash; so that it amounted to a month or two of wearing it and occasional training activity. Her rapport with both dogs was good; and they were/are (the first dog lived to be 11 years old; she got the second dog, a high-energy coonhound mix who she acquired when he was about four months from a shelter) quite lively, tail-wagging dogs. I've personally never used a shock collar.
I used the shock collar on my dog when first training him. More of the buzzer than any actual shock, and then only on the lowest tenth of the settings. It worked very well for stopping behavior after he had been taught not to do something. Our bond is super strong, BUT I can see how it can be easily used wrong and the damage it could cause, and it has made me more negative on the thought of using it.
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I like the concept of layered training that Michael Ellis of Leerburg teaches. I think it’s what several of you have talked about as “starting out positive and then correcting when the dog knows the skill”. Michael Ellis expects the same precision and thoughtfulness throughout the layers of instruction – from the owner.
For example, Recall Training follows these steps: 1. Restrained Recalls, 2. Distraction Free Recalls, 3. Competing Motivators, 4. Call OFF vs Calling AWAY, 5. Layering Leash Pressure into the Recall, and 6. Remote Collars and the Recall.
The Remote Collar step is also layered: First with the long line and E Collar (long line provides a directional component) and then teaching the dog how to turn the collar off (classical negative reinforcement).
If the owner wishes, he can skip this last step and will have some semblance of a recall (and based the skill of the owner and temperament of the dog, may be quite good).
Quote:
Originally Posted by JrzDefector
Check out the Fenzi courses online. All the dog sports people I know swear by them.
I swear by them too. The emphasis is on Relationship Based Training.
Relationship Based Training has got me thinking about the concept of the Imaginary Leash i.e., even if my dog is off leash, I want him/her to still feel (subjective word) connected to me via our Imaginary Leash. And my Imaginary Leash is only as strong as my relationship with my dogs. Fair and thoughtful corrections strengthen the relationship not weaken it.
And now I have to gloat – I have a working spot in this year’s Denise Fenzi Training Camp and have some one-on-one time with Denise herself. I’m soooo excited!
I like the concept of layered training that Michael Ellis of Leerburg teaches. I think it’s what several of you have talked about as “starting out positive and then correcting when the dog knows the skill”. Michael Ellis expects the same precision and thoughtfulness throughout the layers of instruction – from the owner.
For example, Recall Training follows these steps: 1. Restrained Recalls, 2. Distraction Free Recalls, 3. Competing Motivators, 4. Call OFF vs Calling AWAY, 5. Layering Leash Pressure into the Recall, and 6. Remote Collars and the Recall.
The Remote Collar step is also layered: First with the long line and E Collar (long line provides a directional component) and then teaching the dog how to turn the collar off (classical negative reinforcement).
If the owner wishes, he can skip this last step and will have some semblance of a recall (and based the skill of the owner and temperament of the dog, may be quite good).
I swear by them too. The emphasis is on Relationship Based Training.
Relationship Based Training has got me thinking about the concept of the Imaginary Leash i.e., even if my dog is off leash, I want him/her to still feel (subjective word) connected to me via our Imaginary Leash. And my Imaginary Leash is only as strong as my relationship with my dogs. Fair and thoughtful corrections strengthen the relationship not weaken it.
And now I have to gloat – I have a working spot in this year’s Denise Fenzi Training Camp and have some one-on-one time with Denise herself. I’m soooo excited!
You can get an awful lot of training done with just positive. I've put several obedience titles onto dogs with all of the training, even the heel, done without a leash.
Negative doesn't have to be harsh. That "uh" noise will often be enough correction. Or a frown is enough for some dogs.
But the thing is, the trainer must be prepared to be tough enough with the negative so that the negative stops the behavior. Otherwise, all you are doing is nagging. When you correct a behavior, you must stop whatever else you are doing to make sure the dog's unwanted behavior actually stops.
Historical note, of very little interest: the Scottish Deerhound is an ancient Scottish breed. A Deerhound will ignore "uh", but every Deerhound will stop what they are doing with "oi" (or is that oye? ), which is a Scottish attention getting noise of correction.
Last edited by oregonwoodsmoke; 02-20-2018 at 10:16 AM..
wally is a bit of a sensitive, timid dog. positive reinforcement is a MUST with him.
Steve our rescue is the same. With my Dante my "no" usually has some base in it, with Steve I can't. He will pee a little, hang his head to the ground.....just a little "nope" and he is good.
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Interesting to read this thread. We're getting good results with positive reinforcement in our continuous training of Tribbles, 4-year old GSD-Sheltie mix, but we have one big problem that needs to be addressed: she will take off after wildlife when she is off leash. No matter what we do (from treats to scolding), we can't seem to contain her wild side. She always comes back after 5-6 minutes, but in those minutes disasters can happen. When we're at our place in North Idaho, there is the very real danger that she might get shot if she is "harassing wildlife." Our previous two dogs (GSD/mix) were under voice control. I could call First Dog back from chasing a rabbit by simply calling her name! But not Tribbles. So we're considering a buzz collar, and from this thread I get the impression that it is not an evil, harmful invention...?
Incidentally, I read up on the term "negative reinforcement," and it appears that psychologists use it differently: they define it, not as punishment to stop bad behavior, but as a way to enforce a behavior (keep it going) by removing some unpleasant element. That was a surprise to me. So for dog training that would be like turning one's back on a dog that jumps up, and turning around after the dog stops jumping, I guess?
Interesting to read this thread. We're getting good results with positive reinforcement in our continuous training of Tribbles, 4-year old GSD-Sheltie mix, but we have one big problem that needs to be addressed: she will take off after wildlife when she is off leash. No matter what we do (from treats to scolding), we can't seem to contain her wild side. She always comes back after 5-6 minutes, but in those minutes disasters can happen. When we're at our place in North Idaho, there is the very real danger that she might get shot if she is "harassing wildlife." Our previous two dogs (GSD/mix) were under voice control. I could call First Dog back from chasing a rabbit by simply calling her name! But not Tribbles. So we're considering a buzz collar, and from this thread I get the impression that it is not an evil, harmful invention...?
Incidentally, I read up on the term "negative reinforcement," and it appears that psychologists use it differently: they define it, not as punishment to stop bad behavior, but as a way to enforce a behavior (keep it going) by removing some unpleasant element. That was a surprise to me. So for dog training that would be like turning one's back on a dog that jumps up, and turning around after the dog stops jumping, I guess?
Negative Reinforcement is akin to being a nag until the desired behavior is done. Example would be your mom nagging you to make your bed. The nagging stops when you finally do it.
What you are describing in your example is Negative Punishment. This is when you withdraw something the dog wants to stop the unwanted behavior.
Depending on the temperament of your dog and the strength of your relationship, this is the WORST type of situation that your dog can find himself in. They absolutely hate it.
Some more independent breeds seem not to care in the least if you cease to pay attention to them.
It can be appropriate to use a shock collar on certain type of dog (generally working line dogs) in very limited situations where the person using the collar knows what they're doing. It should only be used when the dog fully understands what's being asked of it. It's never a starting point.
The vast majority of dogs don't need it and it's cruel to use it on them
You can train most dogs with primarily positive reinforcement. It takes more time and you need to be a more skilled trainer to be effective.
It can be appropriate to use a shock collar on certain type of dog (generally working line dogs) in very limited situations where the person using the collar knows what they're doing. It should only be used when the dog fully understands what's being asked of it. It's never a starting point.
The vast majority of dogs don't need it and it's cruel to use it on them
You can train most dogs with primarily positive reinforcement. It takes more time and you need to be a more skilled trainer to be effective.
You never go directly to a hard stim. You start with the smallest stim needed to get a result and if the dog has been taught how to properly respond to the stim, there should be no outside reaction to the correction. The dog should just come running, not jump, yelp, cry, etc. You wouldn't train the dog's recall without a remote collar, then put the remote on him and suddenly give a big correction. A remote collar is only as cruel as you make it. Many trainers train from the very beginning with a remote collar and it is used as a leash and collar. There is no pain to the dogs. Also, a dog should ideally work with a remote collar on for several days to a couple of weeks without it actually being used. You don't want the dog to understand he only has to listen when he has the collar on. In the case of the dog above, all the recall work should be done and solid on a long line. Then the collar should be layered over that, going back to basic recalls using a 6 ft. leash. It has to be taught the stim means come. Once the dog understands and ignores a training level stim, then you can go up in very small increments until the dog knows you mean business. And unless they are just totally bull-headed, this is usually before any real pain. I did have to give my dog a hard pop one time but he was hot on the tail of a badger and totally in the zone. I was afraid he was about to catch it and he was completely ignoring me in his pursuit. I had to hit him hard but he did come. After that, I never had to tell him twice again.
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