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Old 01-29-2009, 11:25 AM
 
Location: Mississippi
315 posts, read 977,297 times
Reputation: 421

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A dog of any breed or mix can be made to act aggressively, if that is what an owner attempts to do deliberately or through ignorance and treating a dog like a stupid mute human instead of what it is- a neotanous wolf. It doesn't make news when someone's small lap dog bites or attacks because it isn't capable of causing the damage something with the strength and bulk of a Pit can do. Putting a bandanna around a dog's neck and having him play with a frisbee don't make him less formidable if his instincts to protect are put to the test.

The greatest problem confronting Pit owners isn't the dogs; the attempt to present them as something other than what they are is. They are fantastic dogs, but they were never intended to be great pets. Pretending they are is unfair to the dogs and the uneducated who come into contact with them and want to treat them like Golden Retrievers.

 
Old 01-29-2009, 04:10 PM
 
Location: vagabond
2,631 posts, read 4,926,196 times
Reputation: 1302
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anti-idiotarian View Post
You have a point. Pitbulls, for instance, are the favorite breed of gangbangers, crack and methamphetamine dealers, rapists, murderers, and other violent offenders. As a matter of fact, one study in Ohio showed that every owner of a vicious dog had at least one brush with the law, and 30% had at least five citations or criminal convictions. However, one must keep in mind that pitbulls are genetically different from most other dogs, just as pitbull owners appear to be genetically different from normal humans. Pitbulls comprise 2% of the dogs in the US, yet are responsible for 32% of fatal maulings. Goldern retrievers and Labs comprise 32% of American dogs, and yet, are responsible for only 2% of fatal dog maulings. That means that pitbulls are 256 times more likely to fatally maul a human being than Labradors and Golden retrievers combined.
agree with most of this, until you start utilizing the media as your measurement tool.

Quote:
This number is simply too high to attribute to the criminal tendencies that seem to be universal among pitbull owners.
a) don't sell your opinion as fact. if you think you have some reputable info to back up this claim, show it--don't preach it.

b) don't base your facts off of media reports, especially when half of the supposed 'pit bull' vics can't even identify a pit or a pit lookalike when later asked.

Quote:
Sociopaths who believe that they have a 'right' to keep and impose on society a monstrosity that has the drive to attack and murder hardwired into it via dozens of generations of selective breeding, are just as genetically flawed as the vile sub-canines they so love.
you posted this only two posts after mhladik12 gave you specifics on how he wasn't imposing his dog on anyone. reading comprehension could have prevented that error, methinks. again, for the sake of those that apparently haven't caught on, some of us dog owners actually keep our pets on a leash or in a fenced yard. some of us even make sure of it no matter what breed we have.

news flash: every dog has the instinct to hunt and kill hardwired into them. every dog. even your mini poodle. especially your mini poodle. you seem to be ignoring that fact.

if you have as much experience with dogs as you are making it sound like you do, then you know that every dog has the potential to be a violent beast. same with humans. when i adopted my last dog, the most violent and aggressive animal in there was a yellow lab.

well, wait a minute, that throws a wrench into the whole 'labs=love and pits=satan' theory, doesn't it?

why?

because you are basing your facts, as do so many people for some strange reason, on the media.

Quote:
It should also be pointed out that the entire, shameful situation feeds a vicious cycle. The subhumans who breed ptibulls are infinitely more likely to be criminals, just as pitbulls themselves are infinitely more likely to be vicious, murderous beasts...
again, the news isn't the best source to base your census data on. i found it humorous how you questions the merits of the atts and their opinions of dog personality, but wholeheartedly accept the media's uneducated, unfounded opinions. you can say that you are skeptical of the media's voice if you want, but you've already nailed that coffin shut by using their stats as the basis of your argument.

Quote:
...and thus have fewer scruples than any other dog breeders. As I pointed out, pitbulls are the favorite dog breed of gangbangers, and other assorted scum, so much so, that a pitbull is a necessary accessory for any violent felon. Because the unscrupulous scum who breed pitbulls breed them primarily for scum of the two-legged variety, the already irreparably flawed genetic of the APBT which render it unfit to live alongside humans or (truly) domesticated animals are thus even further degraded. Psychopath dogs are bred in frightening numbers to satisfy psychopath owners, who, when they find out that the murderous instincts of their beloved pitbull exceed their own drive towards violence usually get rid of these worthless dogs at dog shelters which are already bursting with irredeemable vicious pit bulls and pit-bull mongrels.
agree with the human side of this issue. but your analysis of the dogs is lacking.

please feel free to show me your studies that show that a pit is mentally and emotionally unfit to live in human society. please, and feel free to continue using the local news reel as your 'factual' support; i could use another laugh.

what you will find if you actually look, is that the majority of pits get along swimmingly well in their family. despite your derisive use of the term, there is a good reason why the staffordshire, and to a lesser degree, all pits are known as 'nanny dogs'.

as far as the shelter declaration, have you even ever been to a shelter and seen the pits there? first of all, i don't know what craphole city you must live in if you are that much surrounded by gangbangers and their forgotten, abused dogs, but pits usually make up a rather obvious minority at a shelter.

thus, even with simple numbers alone, it is almost guaranteed that the pit (if there is even one in there) is not the most aggressive dog there.

Quote:
It is true that pit bulls were originally bred to only murderously maul other dogs, and those pit bulls who turned their murderous instincts upon humans were culled.
wrong. bull/bear-baiting was their origin, and even that came about only after their use as farm animals.

Quote:
However, the mechanisms that originally insured this have been discontinued for over 150 years. In their place, unscrupulous breeders have deteriorated the genetics of this monstrous breed to the point where it is equally dangerous to dogs and humans, and attacks adults with the same impunity as it does children, a level of psychopathy that differentiates it from every other breed.
again, you are using logical fallacies as an argumentative foundation--doesn't really make people want to take you seriously. you are speaking of an entire breed as if it were one dog with emotional problems. though you certainly believe it, history, and the number of happy pits and happy pit-owners out there defy your illogical argument.

Quote:
Besides, no dog owner should leave his home to walk his dog fearing that his beloved pet will be murdered by an unprovoked pit bull.
no one has to. the fact is though, no matter what precautions you take, or what restraints are evident, people as a group are pretty stupid, and are easily scared of irrational things, like dogs, guns, minorities, atheists, religious people, salesmen, etc.

Quote:
And, unlike a gun, to which some advocates liken these Frankensteinian abominations, a pitbull is never completely under your control. 'He was the sweetest dog ever, I never thought he would do something like this' is what virtually every pitbull owner says after his child is killed by his beloved 'nanny dog'.
no dog is completely under your control. even when you think that they are.

[quote]Pibtulls are unpredictable - they were bred to never display the classical signs of a dog attack, and thus maintain the element of surprise in their murderous rampages. This is why virtually all pitbull owners are genuinely surprised when they sweet and cuddly pitbull finally shows what's encoded in its DNA by murdering another dog or a person.[quote]

please, please show me your research supporting this. i would looooove to see it. pretty please. with cherries on top.

Quote:
Ban these useless, irredeemable, irreparable, vicious, monstrous dogs!
wow. do you even know what a logical fallacy is?

just in case:
Fallacy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

what you are literally doing is saying that because you don't like them and have no use for them, people should ban them. great finale to a stupendous analysis. my post might seem a little harsh, but the level of self-righteous ignorance here was astounding to me.

for the rest of you, if you think that a pit's natural propensity toward violence is enough so as to ban it from human society, take a moment to think about a few things.

most pit bulls never have problems such as our dear anti-idiot is talking about. every dog is naturally aggressive; true, some more than others. but even your beloved retriever can be abused to the point where it becomes a feral killer, and even a chihuahua can be trained to pit fight. at the same time, even a pit, as most of them do, can be a fiercely loyal, kid-loving, human and dog-friendly pet. many of the pit owners that lurk around these forums have more than one dog living at home, and still have no problems with dog-on-dog violence.

my own pit loves other dogs. so does my brother's pit. they are both happy, stable dogs. why? because we don't beat them, we don't teach them to fight, to kill, and to maim, and we don't own them as some sort of badge of machismo. in fact, we adopted our pit because she displayed the traits that we were looking for in a family dog: intelligence, communication, loyalty, obedience, playfulness, etc.

as a breed, pits are certainly more aggressive than labs, similar to border collies, norwegian elkhounds, and huskies. unlike some of those dogs, pit bulls, mastiffs, rottweilers, and others have the size and strength to do noticeable damage when they get unruly. these two traits are why mhladik12 called them advanced dogs. even the smaller ones have the tendancy to walk all over passive owners. they need a master that knows dog psychology, and knows how to be a strong alpha. if you are not a strong alpha and are not familiar with dog psychology, stick with a lab.

similar, if you are not physically fit enough to control a pit or a rottie on a leash, then stick with a lab or something smaller, even if you did ace dog psych 101.

as far as vicious dogs, some are born that way, though they are few and far between. most of them are products of their environment. when owners treat them horribly or force them to fight, even the gentlest dogs will become killers.

anti mentioned that pits have no place in human society because of their temperaments.

Pit bull attack stats may surprise you (http://www.la-spca.org/dedication/talk/t_judge.htm - broken link)

Quote:
In 37 years, 342 children were killed by dogs, an average of about nine children a year. Shockingly, approximately three children are killed each day, or 1,100 per year, by their parents. Delise notes that "A child in the United States is over 100 times more likely to be killed by his or her parent or caretaker than by a dog."
take into account that this number is a totality of fatal dog attacks, not even separating pits from the rest. sounds like humans are the ones that don't belong in human society. read the whole article; it is pretty enlightening.

if that doesn't quite convince you that human abuse is the key concern as far as any dangerous dog is concerned, go ahead and google a few of these topics:

horse fighting
cockfighting
bullfighting

animal abuse
effects of animal abuse
zoosadism

and finally, if you want some good info on dog psychology, or how to be a successful alpha for your pet, look here:

http://dogbreedinfo.com/index.htm

aaron out.

Last edited by stycotl; 01-29-2009 at 04:19 PM..
 
Old 01-29-2009, 05:01 PM
 
Location: Wasilla, Alaska
17,850 posts, read 20,162,572 times
Reputation: 6482
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldenfatt View Post
A dog of any breed or mix can be made to act aggressively, if that is what an owner attempts to do deliberately or through ignorance and treating a dog like a stupid mute human instead of what it is- a neotanous wolf. It doesn't make news when someone's small lap dog bites or attacks because it isn't capable of causing the damage something with the strength and bulk of a Pit can do. Putting a bandanna around a dog's neck and having him play with a frisbee don't make him less formidable if his instincts to protect are put to the test.

The greatest problem confronting Pit owners isn't the dogs; the attempt to present them as something other than what they are is. They are fantastic dogs, but they were never intended to be great pets. Pretending they are is unfair to the dogs and the uneducated who come into contact with them and want to treat them like Golden Retrievers.
Dogs are born with aggressive or passive traits in varying degrees (just like humans), you are right in that they are not breed specific. However, it also does not require an owner to "make" a dog aggressive. There are some dogs (breed does not matter) that are naturally aggressive.

Personally, I like aggressive dogs and look specifically for them as puppies. They aren't that difficult to spot either. Pick up any 8 week old puppy, flip them up-side down on their back and gently scratch their belly. If they lay there and enjoy the scratching, they will probably make an excellent family dog. If they struggle to right themselves or bite you in order to gain control, then that puppy has aggressive tendencies.
 
Old 01-30-2009, 11:39 AM
 
Location: ohio
12 posts, read 35,648 times
Reputation: 10
hey I'm an Ohio folk, haha I am caught on the pit bull issue, on one hand I have interacted with many friendly pits, even owning one as a child, yes they to have inherited traits to chase they also have a very high prey drive as do many other dogs not considered to be vicous like the german shepard, do I believe they should be banned of course not, as the people that are the problem (dog fighters or people that would intentionaly teach their dogs to be vicous) would continue to own them regaurdless of the law do I think pit bull owners should be mandated to take special classes, of course, as they are more aggressive in alot of cases, they same claim stands for rotts and many of the bull breeds, I do believe that many owners of these said to be dangerous breeds would gladly have their dogs behavior tested to be allowed to keep their dogs

Last edited by truckluvincowgrl; 01-30-2009 at 12:27 PM.. Reason: left out part of thought
 
Old 01-30-2009, 11:42 AM
 
Location: ohio
12 posts, read 35,648 times
Reputation: 10
does no one remember the pom that mauled a 6 mo old infant to death?????that wasnt that long ago.
Golden Retriever attacks mother and child walking (East Idaho, 05/17/05)
Alaskan Malamute kills young girl (The Denver Post, 05/08/05)
Two Siberian Huskies kill 2 yr old (WXYZ Local News, Waterford, MI 05/06/05)
Bull Mastiff attacks 6 yr old boy (South Wales Echo, 05/12/05)
Lab/Chow mix attacks animal control officer (Cherokee County, 05/11/05)
Police K9 dog attacks officer/handler (Charlotte Observer, 5/11/05)
Boy attacked by 2 Labradors, Doberman and a Bulldog mix (WALB TV 5/09/05)
Golden Retriever attacks 2 yr. old (Leavenworth Times, 05/10/05)
Family Pets, Labrador Retriever and a Dachshund attack elderly woman (Indianapolis Star, 05/06/05)
Toddler attacked by Husky/Shepherd mix (The Winnipeg Sun, 03/14/05)
Australian Cattle Dog attacks 3 children and 1 adult (Midway Driller, 05/02/05)
Dalmatian bites ½ of toddler's nose off (KTRK TV, Houston, 10/12/04)
Family Pomeranian kills infant (Los Angeles, AP 09/21/03)

Last edited by leorah; 01-30-2009 at 07:51 PM..
 
Old 01-30-2009, 11:51 AM
 
200 posts, read 874,723 times
Reputation: 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by truckluvincowgrl View Post
does no one remember the pom that mauled a 6 mo old infant to death?????that wasnt that long ago.

didn't hear of that one, did he you hear about a 3-4 months old black killing an un-attended(for an hour) 2 months old infant, who is to blame?! Of course the parents...this happened like 6 months ago in Tulsa.

or the golden retrieved who mauled the 4 year old next door, the owner of the dog have always told the kids in the neighborhood to stay away from the dog, but of course, the parents didn't do their duty to keep their kids away?! who is to blame?!
 
Old 01-30-2009, 12:29 PM
 
128 posts, read 420,919 times
Reputation: 155
[quote=stycotl;7234975]agree with most of this, until you start utilizing the media as your measurement tool.

a) don't sell your opinion as fact. if you think you have some reputable info to back up this claim, show it--don't preach it.

b) don't base your facts off of media reports, especially when half of the supposed 'pit bull' vics can't even identify a pit or a pit lookalike when later asked.

you posted this only two posts after mhladik12 gave you specifics on how he wasn't imposing his dog on anyone. reading comprehension could have prevented that error, methinks. again, for the sake of those that apparently haven't caught on, some of us dog owners actually keep our pets on a leash or in a fenced yard. some of us even make sure of it no matter what breed we have.

news flash: every dog has the instinct to hunt and kill hardwired into them. every dog. even your mini poodle. especially your mini poodle. you seem to be ignoring that fact.

if you have as much experience with dogs as you are making it sound like you do, then you know that every dog has the potential to be a violent beast. same with humans. when i adopted my last dog, the most violent and aggressive animal in there was a yellow lab.

well, wait a minute, that throws a wrench into the whole 'labs=love and pits=satan' theory, doesn't it?

why?

because you are basing your facts, as do so many people for some strange reason, on the media.

again, the news isn't the best source to base your census data on. i found it humorous how you questions the merits of the atts and their opinions of dog personality, but wholeheartedly accept the media's uneducated, unfounded opinions. you can say that you are skeptical of the media's voice if you want, but you've already nailed that coffin shut by using their stats as the basis of your argument.

agree with the human side of this issue. but your analysis of the dogs is lacking.

please feel free to show me your studies that show that a pit is mentally and emotionally unfit to live in human society. please, and feel free to continue using the local news reel as your 'factual' support; i could use another laugh.

what you will find if you actually look, is that the majority of pits get along swimmingly well in their family. despite your derisive use of the term, there is a good reason why the staffordshire, and to a lesser degree, all pits are known as 'nanny dogs'.

as far as the shelter declaration, have you even ever been to a shelter and seen the pits there? first of all, i don't know what craphole city you must live in if you are that much surrounded by gangbangers and their forgotten, abused dogs, but pits usually make up a rather obvious minority at a shelter.

thus, even with simple numbers alone, it is almost guaranteed that the pit (if there is even one in there) is not the most aggressive dog there.

wrong. bull/bear-baiting was their origin, and even that came about only after their use as farm animals.

again, you are using logical fallacies as an argumentative foundation--doesn't really make people want to take you seriously. you are speaking of an entire breed as if it were one dog with emotional problems. though you certainly believe it, history, and the number of happy pits and happy pit-owners out there defy your illogical argument.

no one has to. the fact is though, no matter what precautions you take, or what restraints are evident, people as a group are pretty stupid, and are easily scared of irrational things, like dogs, guns, minorities, atheists, religious people, salesmen, etc.

no dog is completely under your control. even when you think that they are.

[quote]Pibtulls are unpredictable - they were bred to never display the classical signs of a dog attack, and thus maintain the element of surprise in their murderous rampages. This is why virtually all pitbull owners are genuinely surprised when they sweet and cuddly pitbull finally shows what's encoded in its DNA by murdering another dog or a person.
Quote:

please, please show me your research supporting this. i would looooove to see it. pretty please. with cherries on top.

wow. do you even know what a logical fallacy is?

just in case:
Fallacy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

what you are literally doing is saying that because you don't like them and have no use for them, people should ban them. great finale to a stupendous analysis. my post might seem a little harsh, but the level of self-righteous ignorance here was astounding to me.

for the rest of you, if you think that a pit's natural propensity toward violence is enough so as to ban it from human society, take a moment to think about a few things.

most pit bulls never have problems such as our dear anti-idiot is talking about. every dog is naturally aggressive; true, some more than others. but even your beloved retriever can be abused to the point where it becomes a feral killer, and even a chihuahua can be trained to pit fight. at the same time, even a pit, as most of them do, can be a fiercely loyal, kid-loving, human and dog-friendly pet. many of the pit owners that lurk around these forums have more than one dog living at home, and still have no problems with dog-on-dog violence.

my own pit loves other dogs. so does my brother's pit. they are both happy, stable dogs. why? because we don't beat them, we don't teach them to fight, to kill, and to maim, and we don't own them as some sort of badge of machismo. in fact, we adopted our pit because she displayed the traits that we were looking for in a family dog: intelligence, communication, loyalty, obedience, playfulness, etc.

as a breed, pits are certainly more aggressive than labs, similar to border collies, norwegian elkhounds, and huskies. unlike some of those dogs, pit bulls, mastiffs, rottweilers, and others have the size and strength to do noticeable damage when they get unruly. these two traits are why mhladik12 called them advanced dogs. even the smaller ones have the tendancy to walk all over passive owners. they need a master that knows dog psychology, and knows how to be a strong alpha. if you are not a strong alpha and are not familiar with dog psychology, stick with a lab.

similar, if you are not physically fit enough to control a pit or a rottie on a leash, then stick with a lab or something smaller, even if you did ace dog psych 101.

as far as vicious dogs, some are born that way, though they are few and far between. most of them are products of their environment. when owners treat them horribly or force them to fight, even the gentlest dogs will become killers.

anti mentioned that pits have no place in human society because of their temperaments.

Pit bull attack stats may surprise you (http://www.la-spca.org/dedication/talk/t_judge.htm - broken link)

take into account that this number is a totality of fatal dog attacks, not even separating pits from the rest. sounds like humans are the ones that don't belong in human society. read the whole article; it is pretty enlightening.

if that doesn't quite convince you that human abuse is the key concern as far as any dangerous dog is concerned, go ahead and google a few of these topics:

horse fighting
cockfighting
bullfighting

animal abuse
effects of animal abuse
zoosadism

and finally, if you want some good info on dog psychology, or how to be a successful alpha for your pet, look here:

Dog Breed Info Center®, DBI

aaron out.
I don't like to get involved in these threads, but there is just so much that is untrue in this post, I couldn't keep my mouth shut...not to mention the insulting tone.

I live in Palm Beach County. You should check out the Palm Beach County Animal Control adoptable dogs list if you think pits are not the most common breed in many shelters. They are OVERWHLEMINGLY overrepresented. In fact, I would have to go out of county if I wanted to adopt a non-pit from a kill-shelter, most likely.

I don't hate the dogs. I play with them, and my heart breaks for what has been done to them. Mass-produced in backyards, then abandoned.

That said, all three of my kids have been bit by a neighbor's pit mix. The owners do not abuse her, and my kids were not mauled, but she is unstable. Another neighbor's pit grabbed my last dog by the throat unprovoked and would have killed her if the owner did not step in.

A family friend had a pit from 8 weeks, Misty. She had her for 8 years. "K" was like many of you, always defending the breed...and Misty WAS a sweet dog. Good with their other dogs, obedient, playful, good with the cats they later adopted and good with the three kids they had.

Then Misty dug under the fence one afternoon and slaughtered (that's the only word for it, truly) the neighbors' collie and Australian shepherd. Tore them apart.

I play with these dogs when they're at the park and think they are beautiful creatures, but do I think something has gone terribly awry with the breed? Absolutely.
 
Old 01-30-2009, 02:30 PM
 
Location: vagabond
2,631 posts, read 4,926,196 times
Reputation: 1302
Quote:
I don't like to get involved in these threads, but there is just so much that is untrue in this post, I couldn't keep my mouth shut...not to mention the insulting tone.
if you thought that me calling him out on his ridiculous claims was offensive, then i'd like to see you post your disappointment in his insults, lies, and accusations as well.

we should be fair after all.

i already addressed why i came across as harsh with him, and if you haven't gone through the thread far enough back to know what i am talking about, then you are not understanding the issue that is being presented.

anti-idiot has made multiple, baseless accusations, huge, sweeping generalizations, and a number of snide insults at people that own pit bulls.

he has ignored data and personal testimony that conflicts with his argument, and has proven that he does not wish to actually participate in a discussion, but wants to push his views, as hostile as they are, on everyone else here and insult those that don't agree with him.

Quote:
I live in Palm Beach County. You should check out the Palm Beach County Animal Control adoptable dogs list if you think pits are not the most common breed in many shelters. They are OVERWHLEMINGLY overrepresented. In fact, I would have to go out of county if I wanted to adopt a non-pit from a kill-shelter, most likely.
i'll be the first to admit that my personal experience doesn't speak for the whole country. but my personal experience does screw up the theory that so many anti-pit people have which says that almost all the dogs in the shelters are pits or pit derivatives. i have never been to a shelter that had a majority of pits. in fact, pits were always among a minority in the shelters i have been to. further, the pits there have never been the most aggressive dogs present.

so, when i speak for my personal experience, i don't care whether or not there are shelters that have a pit majority. what i care about is that claiming that this is a nation-wide problem is a lie.

Quote:
I don't hate the dogs. I play with them, and my heart breaks for what has been done to them. Mass-produced in backyards, then abandoned.
no one ever said that you hate them. however, the post that i quoted showed some pretty obvious malevolence.

Quote:
That said, all three of my kids have been bit by a neighbor's pit mix. The owners do not abuse her, and my kids were not mauled, but she is unstable. Another neighbor's pit grabbed my last dog by the throat unprovoked and would have killed her if the owner did not step in.

A family friend had a pit from 8 weeks, Misty. She had her for 8 years. "K" was like many of you, always defending the breed...and Misty WAS a sweet dog. Good with their other dogs, obedient, playful, good with the cats they later adopted and good with the three kids they had.

Then Misty dug under the fence one afternoon and slaughtered (that's the only word for it, truly) the neighbors' collie and Australian shepherd. Tore them apart.

I play with these dogs when they're at the park and think they are beautiful creatures, but do I think something has gone terribly awry with the breed? Absolutely.
and what i think is that human understanding of dog psychology has been negligently lacking. there is no reason why the owner of a pit bull, rottweiler, rottwieler, or another big, dominant breed can't learn how to interact with and maintain a healthy relationship with their animal.

in fact, for that matter, there is no reason why the owner of a retriever or a yorkie can't educate him or herself on those issues. we live in the information age, and yet people are content to remain ignorant as to the environment into which they are placing their animals and their children.

as far as i remember reading on this thread, no one has claimed that a pit bull is the same as a retriever and can be treated as such.

in fact, remember above when one of the other posters called a pit an advanced dog? there is a reason why the average, lazy goon off the street should not own a dog. there is even more reason as to why that goon should not own a border collie, a poodle, a terrier, a rottweiler, a shepherd, or any other breed of assertive, demanding dog.

i will agree that something has to change. but that something is not the dog. it is not the dog that is the problem. when correctly trained and correctly handled, most pits, most rotts, and most of those other breeds do incredibly well.

refute that fact, please, if you want to maintain any semblance of intelligent argument.

the problem is that most dog owners don't have a fraction of an idea of dog psychology, and don't know how to provide for that dog's needs, and don't know how to be a proper alpha, a responsible dog owner.

yes, that includes the neighbors that own a pit and say things like, "oh, i just don't get it. she would never have hurt a fly..." anyone that believes a dog won't hurt a fly is deluding themselves and setting themselves and everyone around them up for pain and despair. doesn't matter the breed.

show me a human-violent retriever and i will show you a stupid and/or lazy owner.

show me a human-violent pit and i will show you a stupid and/or lazy owner.

there is a difference between the two–no one is arguing that there isn't. what i am arguing is that until the human approach to dog ownershup changes, *every* breed will continue to have problems. the ones that get blamed are the strong ones that can do damage. the others get off with a slap on the wrist.

either way, it should be the human factor to this equation that gets spanked, not the dog.

when you treat the symptoms of the problem, they don't even go away, they just keep popping back up. when you treat the problem itself, it tends to go away, or at least become manageable.

gun violence leads to gun restrictions = treating the symptoms.

dog violence leads to dog restrictions = treating the symptoms.

bank robberies with sun glasses leads to no sun glasses allowed in banks = treating the symtoms.

terrorist attacks lead to no nail files on an airplane = treating the symptoms.

now, you claimed in your opening statements that "there is just so much that is untrue in this post, I couldn't keep my mouth shut..." and yet, the only thing that you addressed with any sort of contradictory info was the number of pits in shelters. i've already addressed that i don't consider myself to be an expert on the rest of the country, so we can move on.

anything else that you forgot to mention then? i'd sure appreciate being corrected if you have any factual info that proves that i was "untrue" and wrong in my assessment of anti-idiot's logically fallacious statements.

thanks in advance.

aadon out.
 
Old 01-30-2009, 02:45 PM
 
128 posts, read 420,919 times
Reputation: 155
There are a lot of assumptions that you made that are simply untrue, some that i can only refute with personal experience, which really isn't valuable "proof" on a message board.

I specifically chose to only address one issue, since it was easily verifiable. I don't own pits, don't hate pits and I lobby neither for nor against BSL. I don't have a lot of time here at work to talk about pits/BSL, either. And I'm not out to prove you wrong on all your points. But by you respoding to ati-idiot in the manner you did only weakens what could have been a persuasive argument on your part.

What i do believe, is that failing to see the problems associated with this particular breed of dog does them a huge disservice (not only this one, but this is the one we are discussing). They are absolutely NOT for everyone. I think you said as much in your post. And I agree that most people do not understand dog psychology, pack mentality or being the dog's alpha. But that does not mean they can't provide a loving home to a dog. And there's a huge difference with that type of owner owning a retriever and owning a pit.

Back to the shelter thing, you might be surprised at the statistics. I know in a nearby county, you won't see many pits up for adoption, because they are the first to be euthanized.
 
Old 01-30-2009, 04:39 PM
miu
 
Location: MA/NH
17,098 posts, read 34,506,960 times
Reputation: 16138
Quote:
Originally Posted by truckluvincowgrl View Post
does no one remember the pom that mauled a 6 mo old infant to death?????that wasnt that long ago.
Golden Retriever attacks mother and child walking (East Idaho, 05/17/05)
Alaskan Malamute kills young girl (The Denver Post, 05/08/05)
Two Siberian Huskies kill 2 yr old (WXYZ Local News, Waterford, MI 05/06/05)
Bull Mastiff attacks 6 yr old boy (South Wales Echo, 05/12/05)
Lab/Chow mix attacks animal control officer (Cherokee County, 05/11/05)
Police K9 dog attacks officer/handler (Charlotte Observer, 5/11/05)
Boy attacked by 2 Labradors, Doberman and a Bulldog mix (WALB TV 5/09/05)
Golden Retriever attacks 2 yr. old (Leavenworth Times, 05/10/05)
Family Pets, Labrador Retriever and a Dachshund attack elderly woman (Indianapolis Star, 05/06/05)
Toddler attacked by Husky/Shepherd mix (The Winnipeg Sun, 03/14/05)
Australian Cattle Dog attacks 3 children and 1 adult (Midway Driller, 05/02/05)
Dalmatian bites ½ of toddler's nose off (KTRK TV, Houston, 10/12/04)
Family Pomeranian kills infant (Los Angeles, AP 09/21/03)
You must be a pit bull lover that loves to collect these newstories of dog attacks by other breeds. And your list is proof that the news services do cover dog attack stories of other dog breeds. However, the pit bull attack stories greatly outweigh the newstories of other breeds and the results more horrific... like the 90 year old man in Staten Island last July attacked by two unleased pitbulls. They chewed his arms and legs to the bone. A man with a butche's knife was able to fight off the dogs. First, one of his legs was amputated at the knee. The man later died in the hospital. Then there was the 19 year old girl in Florida last year that had her nose bitten off in play by her boyfriend's dog. Pit bulls are too strong a dog for some adult people to own. Consider how tough they are on their chew toys.
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