Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Pets > Dogs
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
View Poll Results: Cesar Milan or Victoria Stilwell
Cesar Milan (Dog Whisper) 66 61.11%
Victoria Stilwell (It’s Me or the Dog) 42 38.89%
Voters: 108. You may not vote on this poll

Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 07-25-2009, 11:58 AM
 
Location: NE Pennsylvania
19 posts, read 87,489 times
Reputation: 25

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by latetotheparty View Post
i prefer and have always subscribed to positive reinforcement training for bailey..... but this foster boy that has been in my house for 9 days now has become a bit of a challenge for me..... he is about 2 weeks short of 1 year old, and DEFINITELY has that teenaged boy attitude going.

he is a border collie mixed with lab (i think) and when he gets wound up during play time, runs circles around me and nips.... HARD..... i have bruises now..... turning my back on him to end play until he calms down doesn't work, because he just nips again and AGAIN..... i have had to resort to putting him into a "down" with a toy or treat offered as soon as he goes down and then a 2nd toy tossed for him to chase 2-3 seconds after that..... unfortunately, i have had to physically put him into the down position on more than one occasion when he continues to bark and nip at me ........ i get the feeling that he is challenging me....... BUT i am starting to see progress at last....

he is also showing significant domination towards my 4-1/2 year old red heeler mix ..... who outweighs him by a good 15 lbs or better..... she is refusing to stand up to him and just goes submissive and gets distressed. i have been pulling him off of her and again putting him into the down position with a toy or treat offered immediately.
I am a Cesar Milan advocate and this post demonstrates how Cesar's methods work quickly for such a dog as your 1 year old boy... how come you didn't post his name? As Dr. Phil often says.. "How's that (Victoria's method) working for you?" Sorry, just poking some fun here...

The major difference I see in Cesar's shows and Victoria's is in their communicating and timing.... with the people! Cesar does a better job at changing people's habits from the get go, whereas Victoria show's continually make the owners look stupid when in actuality Victoria never cleary communicates the timing aspect but then she both does it and demonstrates it upon her return visit... and so on her show psychologically, she one ups both the dog and the ownwers! It's a definate noticeable pattern. Anyway, on to your dilemna.

So, I was pleased to read that you are letting him know you are the dominant one that's exactly what's needed, I would like to offer some advice in the timing of what you are doing because it is clear to me that this boy is raging dominance.... I'm guessing he was neutered after 6 month's and clearly being dominant is already imprinted on his brain. But that's ok, you just have to let him know you are top dog and you own everything including Bailey!

Now, what I'm going to talk about is behavior modification and operant conditioning (what I learned in my University psych class studying B.F.Skinner). The basic formula is to interrupt the unwanted behavior as quickly as possible (which is why Cesar makes that "shhht" noise it's just to get the dog's attention... actually a much better use for a clicker!) and redirect the dog's attention onto something positive. You're saying don't do that, do this instead. Your goal is to modify the dog's dominant state of mind into following your direction. This is also why Cesar jerks the lead as he does, it provides a quick interrupt... he's saying no! not that, do something else!

You are doing this when you pull him off Bailey and make him go into a down... however, if his mental state doesn't change to submissive before you reward, then indeed your reward would become attached to dominance rather than what we want... submission to you. If you learn to anticipate his mental state by reading his body language you'll get quicker responses for your efforts. You can learn to anticpate by watching his body language for signs of his mental state.

Do you see in your photo where your boy is on top of Bailey? See how the tip of his tail is curled up towards his head? Anytime you see that, interpret it as he's in a dominant state. Also his ears are forward and of course his focus and eyes are on her.

In your presence he should always be submissive to you, he should be watching your lead. You might want to pay some attention to how he is using his visual stares to assert dominance over your other dogs, and pay attention to the other dog's demeaner... are their ears back, do they avert his gaze? How they are with him is how he should be with you! Watch what he does with them and how they respond, and you can both interrupt that state of mind by doing the same thing to him! You want him to look away from you if you give him an intense stare... the one that communicates "I'm the boss!" It's the classic stern "Mom" stare!. Please understand that to communicate easily with your pack it's quickest if you know how to speak their language.

When you turn your back to your dog, you communicate submission to him, and that is precisely why he jumps on you and nips you. He's asserting his dominance and communicating that he wants you to play! You clearly are a member of his pack in his mind and that is not what you want. Watch Victoria... she gives the Mom stare!

Which of your dogs eat first? This dominant boy should be last until he starts giving you the respect you deserve. Is he stealing treats/food from the other dogs? Are there any food fights?

You need to own everything, food, toys, bedding, couches, you decide who gets a treat first, who's fed first.... etc. Watch some of Cesar's shows just to pay attention to his timing. Also, especially the second part of Victoria's shows she's doing the interruption. She also give the dog the mom stare... she just doesn't teach it overtly.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 07-25-2009, 05:04 PM
 
Location: St. Louis, Missouri
9,352 posts, read 19,958,779 times
Reputation: 11621
great advice coach!! thanks!

btw ... his name is charlie .... i think i put it in the first thread i posted about him..... i suspect he was VERY young when he was neutered.... possibly as young as 12 weeks or so..... he still squats to pee and just barely even has a penis......

i have made GREAT strides in his nipping at me ..... he MIGHT attempt one or 2 every now and again.... but does NOT succeed and quickly gives up...... far far far better than he was a week ago at this time....... he responds to men way better than he does to me.... so i have had to learn to deepen and growl up my voice and make myself appear bigger than i am........

he seems to be getting the idea now (when i am here) that bailey is "mine" and is not so hard on her as he was a week ago...... my concern is when i am at work..... i suspect that when i am not here, its all bets are off towards her as far as he is concerned..... she REFUSED to go off the deck and into the yard yesterday morning..... even when i threw a few treats out there for her.....

which raises the dilemna i face now .... bailey is my "heart dog" and her mental health is what i have to keep paramount.......

we went to my ex's for dinner thursday night and he just fell head over heels for charlie...... and is very impressed with charlie's obedience training..... so i am hoping like heck that he will adopt charlie...... the fact that i am even considering this says a lot to me.........

his previous person was also a woman .... much younger than me though...... and i suspect not so experienced and confident in herself .... not just with dogs, but with life in general..... and i know that dogs pick up on that sort of thing........

oh and one last thing...... when we were at the dog park today, bailey and charlie COMPLETELY reversed roles..... SHE was the boss and took several opportunities to put him in his place........ and when she got tired of him, she simply walked on into the water where she knew he would not follow her......
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-25-2009, 08:38 PM
 
Location: NE Pennsylvania
19 posts, read 87,489 times
Reputation: 25
Kudos to both you and Bailey! Sounds like between the two of you he'll soon get the message. You might have to do some detective work to learn what's going on while you're gone. Sounds like you're on the right track and he'll continue to progress. The fact that you're seeing progress means you are doing good things.

With Bailey and the backyard... well Charlie's still playing like a puppy and he doesn't know his own strength. Perhaps he's too rough on her? I suppose you could rig up a video camera to a VCR and record 6 hrs of video... then you'd know better what's going on.

I'll say a prayer that your ex falls in love with Charlie!... and you get visiting rights!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-25-2009, 08:56 PM
 
Location: NE Pennsylvania
19 posts, read 87,489 times
Reputation: 25
Oh yes, I meant to aree with what Dashdog said about Charlie's herding instincts... perhaps he might need an outlet... a flock to herd? But it sure sounds like you've been wearing him out at the dog park and on walks. Maybe if you survive this year, he'll calm down a bit. Good thing you have a pack to help you out!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-26-2009, 07:42 AM
 
7,380 posts, read 15,632,321 times
Reputation: 4975
Quote:
Originally Posted by LocoAZnative View Post
To all those who hate on Cesar, he has saved more dogs then many people, thanks to his rehabilitation. Not to mention the many people he has helped keep their dogs that would other wise have been given up to shelters.
or the people who would have to have their dogs' teeth filed down after millan's methods worked for "one day"? oops.

Taming Cotton with 'canine disarming' - Cotton - Los Angeles Times

(keep clicking "next picture" for the full story)

i'm not 100% ok with stilwell's methods, but at least they don't ignore the last 20-30 years of advances in understanding of dog behavior. as for "gentle corrections", you call hanging a dog by the neck gentle?

Dog Whisperer | Shadow, Jake & Riley and Norton | Video | Working with a Wolf | National Geographic Channel (http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/series/dog-whisperer/3252/Videos#tab-Videos/05198_00 - broken link)

i think millan may have quietly moved more towards positive methods in his more recent shows, but without disavowing the damaging techniques he used to endorse. and his methods still tend to correct/suppress the behavior after it starts, instead of eliminating the behavior at the source by giving the dog an incentive to do something else instead.

think about it, would it be more helpful to you if someone was constantly telling you what you shouldn't do, or what you should do?

i can understand why people think giving food cheapens their relationship with their dog, but i don't think that's true. even millan says that the pack leader/whatever controls the food. well, whether or not you eat first or pretend to eat their food or whatever he tells you to do to be dominant, you do control the food and they know it. giving them treats is just giving them more food, and it teaches them that good things happen when they do certain things. you can even use their regular meals as a reward. there's nothing wrong with that. you can also use toys, experiences, and affection as rewards, but it's essentially the same thing; making something good happen when they do a certain behavior.

thinking that dogs will do what you want just for the satisfaction of pleasing you is about as anthropomorphic as you can get. if you're using "corrections," they're obeying you out of fear that something bad will happen, not out of respect or affection for you.

millan looks pretty good next to the guy from that new "in the doghouse" show though. that guy's barbaric.

and "victoria's methods" (or something fairly close to them, at least) have been working just fine for me, thanks. just as they work for many owners, trainers, and behaviorists, including ones who rehabilitate aggressive dogs.

Last edited by groar; 07-26-2009 at 07:51 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-26-2009, 08:53 AM
 
Location: Austin
4,105 posts, read 8,265,023 times
Reputation: 2134
Quote:
Originally Posted by groar View Post
or the people who would have to have their dogs' teeth filed down after millan's methods worked for "one day"? oops.s
You're making it sound like Cesar caused the aggression, when it was the family that was not able to implement what did work for the dog that "one day" that Cesar had to work with him on his preexisting aggression.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-26-2009, 10:20 AM
miu
 
Location: MA/NH
17,764 posts, read 40,045,046 times
Reputation: 18067
Both shows have given me very useful advice.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-26-2009, 10:39 AM
 
7,380 posts, read 15,632,321 times
Reputation: 4975
Quote:
Originally Posted by brattpowered View Post
You're making it sound like Cesar caused the aggression, when it was the family that was not able to implement what did work for the dog that "one day" that Cesar had to work with him on his preexisting aggression.
oh, i didn't mean to imply that he caused the aggression, just that he failed to fix it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-26-2009, 10:59 AM
 
Location: St. Louis, Missouri
9,352 posts, read 19,958,779 times
Reputation: 11621
Quote:
Originally Posted by ReadNCoach View Post
Kudos to both you and Bailey! Sounds like between the two of you he'll soon get the message. You might have to do some detective work to learn what's going on while you're gone. Sounds like you're on the right track and he'll continue to progress. The fact that you're seeing progress means you are doing good things.

With Bailey and the backyard... well Charlie's still playing like a puppy and he doesn't know his own strength. Perhaps he's too rough on her? I suppose you could rig up a video camera to a VCR and record 6 hrs of video... then you'd know better what's going on.

I'll say a prayer that your ex falls in love with Charlie!... and you get visiting rights!

THAT is what i am REALLY REALLY hoping for......

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReadNCoach View Post
Oh yes, I meant to aree with what Dashdog said about Charlie's herding instincts... perhaps he might need an outlet... a flock to herd? But it sure sounds like you've been wearing him out at the dog park and on walks. Maybe if you survive this year, he'll calm down a bit. Good thing you have a pack to help you out!
please don't think badly of me .... but agility and herding are more than i want to or feel capable of at this point in my life.....
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-26-2009, 01:28 PM
 
Location: Mountains of middle TN
5,245 posts, read 16,369,063 times
Reputation: 6130
Quote:
you call hanging a dog by the neck gentle
I think you need to go watch that video again. The leash was held taught, no doubt, but at no time was he hanging the dog in the air. Other than when it lunged to snap at him, he kept all four feet of the dog on the ground. Hanging is feet off the ground, or at least two of them off the ground. The dog was obviously aggressive and he was doing what needed to be done to keep from being attacked.

I'm not saying he's the be all, end all. There are many training techniques that work. Some of his do work for me. And I use some of NILIF training as well. And I use treats. And I use positive correction.

I guess what I'm saying is no one in their right mind can say that any specific one technique alone can work on every single dog. That's like saying time out works for every child. Some of them occasionally need their back side tanned. Same philosophy I use with dogs. Most of mine are very easy to train and happily accept the back seat and let me run the show. But every now and then I get the stubborn ones that need a stronger hand at training. In essence, they need their back side tanned.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Pets > Dogs

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top