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IMHO: The truth of the matter is that any artificial training aid - be it a shock collar, be it running reins on a horse, be it a simple lead for a dog - is only ever as good or as bad as the human being on the other end of it.
It's all to easy to blame inanimate objects for our own training failures.
Figured I'd post here and bump this thread up rather than starting from scratch.
We live in the Missouri Ozarks. Couple of nights ago, our 5 year old Afghan Hound got bit by what we've figured out is a pit viper (copperhead in our neck of the woods). It's really laid him low and I can't imagine anyone thinking this bite is anything but dangerous.
It affected his limbs making it difficult for him to get up from a prone position. It affected his kidneys, lowered his blood clotting factors causing bleeding from the bite site, and affected his ability swallow. He's been in hospital now on IV fluids and his platelets continue to drop. He's coming home on meds and steroids today.
Location: Montreal -> CT -> MA -> Montreal -> Ottawa
17,330 posts, read 33,025,722 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nu2pomona
Figured I'd post here and bump this thread up rather than starting from scratch.
We live in the Missouri Ozarks. Couple of nights ago, our 5 year old Afghan Hound got bit by what we've figured out is a pit viper (copperhead in our neck of the woods). It's really laid him low and I can't imagine anyone thinking this bite is anything but dangerous.
It affected his limbs making it difficult for him to get up from a prone position. It affected his kidneys, lowered his blood clotting factors causing bleeding from the bite site, and affected his ability swallow. He's been in hospital now on IV fluids and his platelets continue to drop. He's coming home on meds and steroids today.
Hate snakes!!!
Oh my gosh, your poor baby!!!! How terrifying!
I hope that the meds and steroids work their wonders and that he's good as new quickly.
Folks, it's somewhat surprising they are just now using vaccines for dogs and cats. I suspect the delay is monetary above anything, (past generations would have been unwilling to pay, for the family dog, and production costs were higher). It's a vaccine like any other. All warm blooded animals have a formable and really, miraculous thing called the immune system. Are bodies are constantly producing leukocytes and antibodies that both destroy and remove toxins from our system. Before our system can do this it has to understand what the toxin is. Think of the toxin as a lock on a door or padlock, without a key. In order to open the lock the locksmith has to make a key that will open the door. In an extremly simplistic example that's what are immune system does. Once it identfys the toxin in can then produce huge numbers of "keys" that can efficiently separate, kill, and/or remove the toxin. The vaccine (a very small portion of the live or dead virus or poison) is injected inton the animal or person is the "locksmith" that makes the "key". The immune system does the rest. Snakebites actually helped in the development of vaccines. It's said that Dr. Edward Jenner and others were intrigued by the stories of individuals who had been envenomated several times by poisonous snakes and survived to become immune to the toxin.
Understand that this rattlesnake vaccination is usually ONLY good for the venom from a western diamondback rattlesnake. The venom destroys tissue and is hemotoxic so it primarily affects the blood cells, vessels and heart. The vaccination can usually help for bites from a sidewinder, timber and copperhead also.
However, there is a large class of rattlesnakes that this vaccination does NOTHING for...these snakes, primarily the Midget Faded Rattlesnake, found in the Colorado Plateau (Western CO, Southeaster UT, and the Green River Foundation from Wyoming down through Eastern Utah, are extremely dangerous, have one of, if not the most potent toxin in the USA (reportedly more toxic than a Cobra and is a Neurotoxin that affects the nerve tissues.
And for anyone who has ever spent a long time in Southeaster Utah (I lived there for six years) these nasty critters are in large numbers in the deserts; especially in the area south of Moab UT. I came across these guys quite a few times when camping, and they don't like to rattle their tails until the last moment. Unlike most rattlers that will rattle when you start to get close.
But then, Black Widows are all over the desert too; and most people don't even realize it.
Understand that this rattlesnake vaccination is usually ONLY good for the venom from a western diamondback rattlesnake. The venom destroys tissue and is hemotoxic so it primarily affects the blood cells, vessels and heart. The vaccination can usually help for bites from a sidewinder, timber and copperhead also.
However, there is a large class of rattlesnakes that this vaccination does NOTHING for...these snakes, primarily the Midget Faded Rattlesnake, found in the Colorado Plateau (Western CO, Southeaster UT, and the Green River Foundation from Wyoming down through Eastern Utah, are extremely dangerous, have one of, if not the most potent toxin in the USA (reportedly more toxic than a Cobra and is a Neurotoxin that affects the nerve tissues.
And for anyone who has ever spent a long time in Southeaster Utah (I lived there for six years) these nasty critters are in large numbers in the deserts; especially in the area south of Moab UT. I came across these guys quite a few times when camping, and they don't like to rattle their tails until the last moment. Unlike most rattlers that will rattle when you start to get close.
But then, Black Widows are all over the desert too; and most people don't even realize it.
Exactly. Our beloved Sweetie, 90 lbs White Shepherd, was killed last July by a Green Mojave rattler, which has a neurotoxin poison. No vaccine in the world would have saved her. She had had snake aversion training, but apparently the snake didn't even rattle before it struck her nose. Our vet advised against the vaccine precisely because (1) it has to be snake-specific, and (2) it does nothing for neurotoxins. So what can we do? Snake aversion training, dog on leash in snake areas, and backyards with triple layered fencing. And vigilance. And a prayer......don't know if it helps, but it can't hurt...
My chihuahua was bitten by a rattlesnake on his nose and was rushed to the emergency room. Miraculously he survived thanks to anti-venom. Cost $1500.
Not sure how effective the vaccination would have been though since I am not sure what type of snake bit him as I didn't see it. I have killed over 10 rattlesnakes since then.
Location: Approximately 50 miles from Missoula MT/38 yrs full time after 4 yrs part time
2,308 posts, read 4,121,934 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clark Fork Fantast
Exactly. Our beloved Sweetie, 90 lbs White Shepherd, was killed last July by a Green Mojave rattler, which has a neurotoxin poison. No vaccine in the world would have saved her. She had had snake aversion training, but apparently the snake didn't even rattle before it struck her nose. Our vet advised against the vaccine precisely because (1) it has to be snake-specific, and (2) it does nothing for neurotoxins. So what can we do? Snake aversion training, dog on leash in snake areas, and backyards with triple layered fencing. And vigilance. And a prayer......don't know if it helps, but it can't hurt...
....Hey CFF, how's the 'new canine member of the family doing?
As you will remember, I have put my 2 cents worth of past experience in a couple of previous Threads regarding this subject. For those who have not read the previous Threads regarding this subject, I will gladly put forth my experience (and that of no less than 12 other bird hunters and 2 DVM Drs in AZ)........................
I first starting using the Snake Vaccine Procedure (mfg by Red Rock Biologics out of Woodland, Calif) approx 10 years ago. True, it is not effective against the effects of a Neurotoxin bite (most commonly injected by the Green Mohave).......however, I have seen the positive effective this Vaccine can have on a dog that has received a "wet bite" from a western Diamond back or similiar specie that injects a Hemotoxin.
Both of my Brittanys that I have hunted all over AZ, TX, FL & GA have received the initial series of two injections (approx 22 to 24 days apart)....followed up with an annual Booster...........I started them on this Vaccine 10 years ago................and have had NO Negative Side effects at all..........................I have had the distinct benefit of knowing that IF, one of my dogs is struck by a snake that can inject a Hemotoxin.......that dog will experience Far less negative effects from the bite, And I will have approx an additional 4 to 8 hours to get the dog to a DVM for further treatment. Many factors determine how a dog will react to receiving a Neurotoxin "Wet Bite": 1st of all only approx 25% of snake bites are "wet bites";..other factors include: the age of the snake (baby vs full adult;...where on his body did the dog receive the bite;..the age of the dog and the general health of the dog.
I also am a firm believer in having my dogs "Snake Broke (By an experienced professional using a de-fanged and muzzled Rattler".). By the way,...the same procedure used to "Snake Break" a dog can be successfully used (as in my case) to Break The dog from: Chasing Deer, Elk, and wild Turkeys.
I couldn't be more pleased with the results of using the Vaccine Procedure and the use of a high quality Electronic Training Collar for Snake Avoidance and Wildlife Aviodance.
As is true with all aspects of "Dog Training",: The person involved MUST be 100% qualified in the proper and intelligent use of the E Collar....must NEVER lose their temper!!!
The opinions and satisfaction I have experienced is reflective of the results obtained by my fellow bird hunters in AZ, TX FL & GA.......including the two Vets.
I know there are others out there that will not agree with what I have posted as my opinions and experiences......................that is fine with me.........I wish them luck.
....Hey CFF, how's the 'new canine member of the family doing?
As you will remember, I have put my 2 cents worth of past experience in a couple of previous Threads regarding this subject. For those who have not read the previous Threads regarding this subject, I will gladly put forth my experience (and that of no less than 12 other bird hunters and 2 DVM Drs in AZ)........................
.
Hey Griz, our new four-legged family member is doing fine! Sassy and smart. She jumps on everything that moves just like a fox, with arched back and her front legs together. She even looks like a fox. Hmmmmmmmm...
I was thinking about your previous posts about aversion training etc. when I posted about the vaccine, so I think it's great that you put the info in here. It is absolutely invaluable, because you know what you're talking about. We have our new pup scheduled for aversion training with a different trainer later this month. And we will talk to another vet about the hemotoxin vaccine, because we've got plenty of those snakes, too. (Planned retirement in North Idaho: no rattlers! )
My friend did snake training with her border collie, since she is often out camping in the middle of nowhere. It involved an electric shock collar on the highest setting and live rattlesnakes. It was a terrible experience overall, but the point was to basically instill a deepseated fear of venomous snakes.
I still don't know how I feel about it. I've heard mixed reports on its efficacy, but I suspect for more sensitive breeds it might do the job. I was told about a terrier that it didn't work on, but they are insanely stubborn, so I dunno. My dog tends to try to protect me from anything he finds scary - he gets between me and anything he deems questionable, so even if he was scared of snakes, he might not care if he thought they were a threat to me. I don't go to a lot of remote places though, so I probably won't ever have to worry about that kind of thing.
Are there any stats on efficacy of these vaccines? I know some dogs react poorly to vaccines in general, especially the lepto one.
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She had had snake aversion training, but apparently the snake didn't even rattle before it struck her nose. Our vet advised against the vaccine precisely because (1) it has to be snake-specific, and (2) it does nothing for neurotoxins. So what can we do? Snake aversion training, dog on leash in snake areas, and backyards with triple layered fencing. And vigilance. And a prayer...
...don't know if it helps, but it can't hurt...
)
