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Old 07-30-2009, 09:56 AM
 
Location: St. Louis, Missouri
9,355 posts, read 16,845,177 times
Reputation: 11463

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Quote:
Originally Posted by StarlaJane View Post
That's just it; I wouldn't take a dog into my home that I knew I could not properly train or that would have issues with my other animals. There are people who can take in and rehab animals with issues; the problem is people who think that they can do it, fail and then end up euthing the dog anyway.
As I said before, animals need to be properly placed. And again, I will state that I am able to post without calling others names ("pissy") and those of you who are unable to control yourselves should not be posting.

some behaviors do not manifest immediately...... the foster pup i have in my home right now is a perfect example..... i KNEW there was a reason i never had human children.... its those awful rebellious teen years......

the fact remains that hobbs was not likely to ever find a forever home where this behavior was acceptable or would be tolerated.......

and there was no name calling on my part..... guess i should have used "critical" instead of "pissy"

 
Old 07-30-2009, 10:10 AM
 
Location: Visitation between Wal-Mart & Home Depot
8,309 posts, read 34,412,964 times
Reputation: 7084
Quote:
Originally Posted by StarlaJane View Post
That's just it; I wouldn't take a dog into my home that I knew I could not properly train or that would have issues with my other animals. There are people who can take in and rehab animals with issues; the problem is people who think that they can do it, fail and then end up euthing the dog anyway.
As I said before, animals need to be properly placed. And again, I will state that I am able to post without calling others names ("pissy") and those of you who are unable to control yourselves should not be posting.
I agree with the idea that dogs need to be properly placed and that people need to know their limitations with dogs, but I think it is very unrealistic to expect any prospective adoptive family to be able to fully evaluate a dog's mental health and foresee complications, difficulties and problems that the animal may have, with or without the help of even the most competent rescue organization.

Dogs will tell you a lot about them if you look closely, but they can't tell you everything and they are individuals who will have different reactions to different people, places and events. You can not reasonably ascribe blame to SunInHair.
 
Old 07-30-2009, 11:23 AM
 
Location: Massachusetts
4,033 posts, read 8,599,879 times
Reputation: 4912
I am not ascribing blame, or trying to make the OP feel badly; I just happen to disagree with her decision to euthanize Hobbs, and her decision to take him in.
I understand that problems with dog's behavior do not immediately manifest themselves; however, if you have been following this story (which I have), you will realize that the OP took this dog in knowing that he had been abused. Moreover, Hobbs was having consistent problems in this home, both with the presence of other animals as well as the DH--both factors that many abused dogs have problems with (fighting dogs are baited with kittens and their abusers/owners are usually male.) As I stated before, there were a lot of indications from the very beginning that Hobbs was not going to be successful in this home, and he never should have been placed there, no matter how well-meaning the adopter/OP.
This does not negate all of the efforts of the OP. Obviously, she provided a wonderful home for Hobbs. However, I believe that all of us can do better, and that Hobbs lived and died for something--in this case, that we all learn that, even though we may have the best of intentions, it is still important to place abused dogs in homes where they will live not only happy lives but long lives, and that euthanasia is not a solution or even a last resort; euthanasia means that we have failed.
 
Old 07-30-2009, 11:59 AM
 
Location: Rural New Mexico
557 posts, read 2,322,900 times
Reputation: 339
Thank you all for your posts here, especially those who have been supportive and understanding. Hobbs would not be euthanized until I can get an appointment with the right person at the right shelter (not the one he came from!). Let me clear up a few things. I adopted him from a Humane Society which has zero history on any of the animals they take in (I'm on a mission to try to change that!!) Therefore, I had no idea what kind of issues Hobbs might have. We got him back into excellent physical health. I housebroke him and began basic obedience training using positive methods. The bites directed toward my husband are most likely not due to neurological problem because they were "situational". First time, the worst, was when husband accidentally sat on Hobbs' leg; second time he put his hand near Hobb's favorite toy (not attempting even to take it away!); third time I asked husband to quickly get Hobb's inside the house and away from the decayed rabbit he was chewing on.
A friend came over yesterday to visit and met Hobbs for the first time. He loved her but she can't take him as she has 14 cats. She strongly urged me to try *again* to find a pitbull rescue group to take him. Last month I contacted several groups and all were full. This morning I'm trying again. I would like find a woman in the country or a couple of women who want a dog and have no children or other pets. I would disclose details of his biting history. I am not overly optimistic. I do not want to euthanize Hobbs--he is my baby--but likely will have no other choice. Bless all of you for your kind words.
 
Old 07-30-2009, 12:01 PM
 
1,257 posts, read 4,063,559 times
Reputation: 1018
Quote:
Originally Posted by StarlaJane View Post
I am not ascribing blame, or trying to make the OP feel badly; I just happen to disagree with her decision to euthanize Hobbs, and her decision to take him in.
I understand that problems with dog's behavior do not immediately manifest themselves; however, if you have been following this story (which I have), you will realize that the OP took this dog in knowing that he had been abused. Moreover, Hobbs was having consistent problems in this home, both with the presence of other animals as well as the DH--both factors that many abused dogs have problems with (fighting dogs are baited with kittens and their abusers/owners are usually male.) As I stated before, there were a lot of indications from the very beginning that Hobbs was not going to be successful in this home, and he never should have been placed there, no matter how well-meaning the adopter/OP.
This does not negate all of the efforts of the OP. Obviously, she provided a wonderful home for Hobbs. However, I believe that all of us can do better, and that Hobbs lived and died for something--in this case, that we all learn that, even though we may have the best of intentions, it is still important to place abused dogs in homes where they will live not only happy lives but long lives, and that euthanasia is not a solution or even a last resort; euthanasia means that we have failed.
Excellent!!! I know I suppose to mind own business and protect my own family. I just add one point: many rescue organizations (including the one I help from time to time ) will ask the adoptive family to return the dog if the adoption doesn't work out. For those who want to help but don't have the skills to deal with difficult dogs, please try to adopt from these rescues.

And to Suninhair, I mean no harm and I respect your right and your decision.

Okay. I will go to mind my own business. Sorry.
 
Old 07-30-2009, 12:12 PM
 
Location: St. Louis, Missouri
9,355 posts, read 16,845,177 times
Reputation: 11463
Quote:
Originally Posted by SunInHair View Post
Thank you all for your posts here, especially those who have been supportive and understanding. Hobbs would not be euthanized until I can get an appointment with the right person at the right shelter (not the one he came from!). Let me clear up a few things. I adopted him from a Humane Society which has zero history on any of the animals they take in (I'm on a mission to try to change that!!) Therefore, I had no idea what kind of issues Hobbs might have. We got him back into excellent physical health. I housebroke him and began basic obedience training using positive methods. The bites directed toward my husband are most likely not due to neurological problem because they were "situational". First time, the worst, was when husband accidentally sat on Hobbs' leg; second time he put his hand near Hobb's favorite toy (not attempting even to take it away!); third time I asked husband to quickly get Hobb's inside the house and away from the decayed rabbit he was chewing on.
A friend came over yesterday to visit and met Hobbs for the first time. He loved her but she can't take him as she has 14 cats. She strongly urged me to try *again* to find a pitbull rescue group to take him. Last month I contacted several groups and all were full. This morning I'm trying again. I would like find a woman in the country or a couple of women who want a dog and have no children or other pets. I would disclose details of his biting history. I am not overly optimistic. I do not want to euthanize Hobbs--he is my baby--but likely will have no other choice. Bless all of you for your kind words.

sending all of the good karma and positive energy i can muster..........
 
Old 07-30-2009, 12:22 PM
 
Location: Jax, FL
90 posts, read 294,294 times
Reputation: 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by SunInHair View Post
Thank you all for your posts here, especially those who have been supportive and understanding. Hobbs would not be euthanized until I can get an appointment with the right person at the right shelter (not the one he came from!). Let me clear up a few things. I adopted him from a Humane Society which has zero history on any of the animals they take in (I'm on a mission to try to change that!!) Therefore, I had no idea what kind of issues Hobbs might have. We got him back into excellent physical health. I housebroke him and began basic obedience training using positive methods. The bites directed toward my husband are most likely not due to neurological problem because they were "situational". First time, the worst, was when husband accidentally sat on Hobbs' leg; second time he put his hand near Hobb's favorite toy (not attempting even to take it away!); third time I asked husband to quickly get Hobb's inside the house and away from the decayed rabbit he was chewing on.
A friend came over yesterday to visit and met Hobbs for the first time. He loved her but she can't take him as she has 14 cats. She strongly urged me to try *again* to find a pitbull rescue group to take him. Last month I contacted several groups and all were full. This morning I'm trying again. I would like find a woman in the country or a couple of women who want a dog and have no children or other pets. I would disclose details of his biting history. I am not overly optimistic. I do not want to euthanize Hobbs--he is my baby--but likely will have no other choice. Bless all of you for your kind words.
It sounds to me that Hobbs is just being protective of his belongings. First time he bit he was reacting out of pain or fear; the second time he was making sure his toy wasn't going to be taken away from him (who ever owned him before probably wouldn't redirect his attention from what he was chewing on before taking it away, causing him to become aggressively protective) he reacted before knowing what your husband was going to do with the toy; and the third time again he was protecting his stuff again, his meal if you wish. I think if you are aware of what is causing the outbursts than you can better control it.

I'm not familiar with what you have done in the past (I have only read this thread) and I don't know what your children situation is (do you have any and what age), but I think that Hobbs can continue to stay in your house as long as you are mindful of his belongings. Maybe move slower when going to play with him and his toys (until he learns you aren't going to take it away), replacing the item of interest with something else (give him a treat or something better than the dead rabbit), and make sure not to sit or step on him (LOL). *side note: I understand the dogs response to being sat on and your feelings of being snapped at... I had a dog who snapped at a child for stepping on his 'peter' while lying down. Luckily he didn't hurt her, but it's instinct to them. Similar in humans, some people are better at controling their reactions than others.*

Yes, I understand that may be asking you to change some of your habits/routines, but if you want to keep him that's what will have to happen. I don't think that Hobbs will ever stop bitting (in certain situations), but the good thing is that there are steps you can take to minimize the occurances and avoid those specific situations. Another big thing is not to leave small children alone with him, as they don't always know the best way to act around animals. It could be possible with more work he could relax more?

Again, I'm not aware of all that you have been through, but I thought I would chime in ... you never know when something (even if heard before) might change the situation. Just know that I'm 100% supportive of whatever you choose... as someone else said "do what's best for you and your family".
 
Old 07-30-2009, 12:25 PM
 
Location: San Antonio, TX
556 posts, read 1,834,650 times
Reputation: 845
Quote:
Originally Posted by StarlaJane View Post
......and that euthanasia is not a solution or even a last resort; euthanasia means that we have failed.
StarlaJane - I'm glad you posted again - I was honestly reading your posts differently than you've clarified.....but this one point that I've quoted from your post - I just couldn't read and move on from. And I'm not really writing to you Starla - more to those who are so opposed to hearing that a dog has or is being put down.

Euthanasia may mean that 'someone' failed somewhere - but in some cases (I will readily admit this is the exception and not the rule) - euthanasia is literally releasing a dog from demons only they understand - and are obviously so troubled by, that their world is one of constant fear, the inability to ever relax, almost sleeping with one eye open, always anticipating a 'danger' that doesn't exist, etc.

We have a large dog in our home - without too much lengthy detail, that bites - has bitten, and under the right circumstances, will bite again. With 30+ years of large dog ownership under our belt, at 5+ years with this dog, we've not been able to completely reach him....we can't take vacations without him, because we can't board him, we can't have dog sitters care for him, we can't have un-expected company, we can't leave him sunning on the porch unattended, we can't walk him in public places where a chance encounter might happen before we could react, we have double gates in place to protect the meter readers, etc. Getting vet care for this dog is another subject And to look at him - you would ALL swear he was a great dog - because he isn't foaming at the mouth, lunging at strangers, etc.

He's an awesome dog - with the two of us....but in many ways, we are prisoners of this dog. We made this choice and we love him to a fault.....he should have been put down many years ago....but just as we made the choice to continue, others should be just as solid in a decision to euthanize a dog like this - without feeling ashamed, or like a failure, or not trying hard enough, or whatever. Rehoming a biting dog is simply wrong - and should never be an option. Reputable rescue groups would NEVER intake a biting dog......they don't have potential adopters lining up saying "oh, I want to adopt a dog with a bite history"....

For me personally - my future with dogs, will NOT include another dog who causes purposeful injury to humans.....ever again - I don't care what the dog's reasons are. If something were to happen to both of us - we have instructions to our sons and veterinarian, that this dog is to be immediately euthanized - because we would NEVER wish him on another family - simply to have ourselves feel good about letting him 'live'.

There is no place in our society for dangerous dogs.......and the literal interpretation of what constitutes a dangerous dog is one for great debate. I'll personally not ever stand in judgment of someone who is making the difficult, painful decision about the future of a biting dog in their home........
 
Old 07-30-2009, 01:47 PM
 
Location: Rural New Mexico
557 posts, read 2,322,900 times
Reputation: 339
[quote=LostNJax;10021996]It sounds to me that Hobbs is just being protective of his belongings. (Text deleted). I think if you are aware of what is causing the outbursts than you can better control it.

(Text deleted) I think that Hobbs can continue to stay in your house as long as you are mindful of his belongings. Maybe move slower when going to play with him and his toys (until he learns you aren't going to take it away), replacing the item of interest with something else (give him a treat or something better than the dead rabbit), and make sure not to sit or step on him (LOL). Yes, I understand that may be asking you to change some of your habits/routines, but if you want to keep him that's what will have to happen.(Text deleted). It could be possible with more work he could relax more?

I appreciate your suggestions and, in some cases, they might be the answer. If I were living alone out here I would certainly keep Hobbs because he trusts me and I can "read" him.. For example: he never goes to the door when he has to go out to potty--he just comes and looks at me and I know. Hobbs isn't a dog who needs to relax! He's always relaxed! You should see this big dog lounging on the couch or on his bed, snoring whenever he's indoors But this is what's deceptive, too, because he has bitten when completely relaxed.
 
Old 07-30-2009, 02:04 PM
 
Location: Jax, FL
90 posts, read 294,294 times
Reputation: 55
Default Anther Idea?

My dog and I have the same relationship that you and Hobbs have. I can just look at him and know what he needs/wants. My husband on the other hand, isn't as 'in-tune' with him. I acutally have been working to train my husband to understand Mic's suttle cues... like his different 'honks'. (He honks instead of whines... not sure where that came from? ) I am curious if 'training' your husband/kids would help (if they are willing)? I'm just spouting out ideas, as I know it is hard to give-up/loose a loved one. The decision is ultimately yours.

Oh about being relaxed... My sister is the same as Hobbs, totally calm ...then you just look at something that's hers and she goes off saying that you were going to take it or move it somewhere. LOL We still haven't figured out how to break her of that... we just quite touching or looking at her stuff.

Last edited by LostNJax; 07-30-2009 at 02:31 PM..
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