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Old 08-18-2009, 08:36 AM
 
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Greetings all. My Female dog just started having a Urinary Tract Infection and was treated with antibiotics from the vet. The Vet seemed to suggest a few things that can lead to this, one of which was too high a protein content in her Grain-Free dry dog food: 32% Crude Protein Baseline. I feed her this not because of allergies but because of the superb quality of the food. I was under the understanding that Dogs were made to process protein as a main source of nutrition naturally due to the fact that their natural diet would be mainly raw meat and organs if in the wild of course...which some people do feed their domestic dogs anyway. I have been under the impression that Grain-based foods were not as healthy for dogs due to the fact that their bodies were not meant to process grain and such as main source of protein and nutrition. Too make a long story short...I have done research but am confused by the resutls. Several say that they have never heard of high protien in foods causing UTI, still others say that its an old fable that it does and not true, while others say it is a legitamate concern, like my Vet. I am concerned for my dog and would appreciate any wisdom from someone who is familiar with this whom has some valuable insight. Thank you so much.
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Old 08-18-2009, 12:33 PM
 
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Originally Posted by countryway View Post
Greetings all. My Female dog just started having a Urinary Tract Infection and was treated with antibiotics from the vet. The Vet seemed to suggest a few things that can lead to this, one of which was too high a protein content in her Grain-Free dry dog food: 32% Crude Protein Baseline. I feed her this not because of allergies but because of the superb quality of the food. I was under the understanding that Dogs were made to process protein as a main source of nutrition naturally due to the fact that their natural diet would be mainly raw meat and organs if in the wild of course...which some people do feed their domestic dogs anyway. I have been under the impression that Grain-based foods were not as healthy for dogs due to the fact that their bodies were not meant to process grain and such as main source of protein and nutrition. Too make a long story short...I have done research but am confused by the resutls. Several say that they have never heard of high protien in foods causing UTI, still others say that its an old fable that it does and not true, while others say it is a legitamate concern, like my Vet. I am concerned for my dog and would appreciate any wisdom from someone who is familiar with this whom has some valuable insight. Thank you so much.

Yanno, what it comes down to is opinion...it's the same if you go to doctors...everyone has a different opinion...what I would do if I were you, is trial...use that food, but also take your dog to the vet, b/c urinary tract infections are not fun....there is also something natural which you can buy online, which My cousin has had some supurb results with...do a search for urinary tract infections in dogs and then research natural meds or holistic meds for dogs.

This is what I feed my dog, it's expensive, yes, but he's worth it
http://www.tasteofthewildpetfood.com/

Then he also gets 1 Teasp. per day on his food of The Missing Link
and a 1 a day vitamin
and right now his meds...for his recovery

Good luck...

Creme

Last edited by cremebrulee; 08-18-2009 at 12:42 PM..
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Old 08-18-2009, 03:32 PM
 
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UTI is often caused by PH changes in your dog's urine. Diet plays a key role in modulating PH in urine. The change of PH causes over growth of bacteria, resulting in UTI. It is a good idea to change her diet. I would also look for a diet that helps her kidney. Good luck,
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Old 08-19-2009, 06:26 AM
 
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Originally Posted by LingLing View Post
UTI is often caused by PH changes in your dog's urine. Diet plays a key role in modulating PH in urine. The change of PH causes over growth of bacteria, resulting in UTI. It is a good idea to change her diet. I would also look for a diet that helps her kidney. Good luck,
pH only has to do with stone and crystal formation. High pH urine encourages formation of stones that can harbor Ureaplasma and Proteusorganisms - the only bugs that live well in high pH urine. The treatment for that is 1) get rid of the stone and 2) give something (like vitamin C) to lower the pH. The abnormality of the urinary pH resides in the kidney.

There are several different kind of stones and each one requires a SPECIFIC diet (your vet can tell you what you're dealing with by looking at the urine in a microscope to see the crystals, because each kind of crystal polarizes light in a very specific way).

Lower pH in the urine is usually seen in the scenario of infection with organisms such as [i]E coli, Klebsiella[i] and other bacteria from the GI tract. And females, because of the short urethra, get UTIs much more frequently than males. In males there's also a risk of prostatitis, which requires MUCH more prolonged therapy.

I have never, in all my years as an infectious diseases specialist heard anything about high protein diets being setups for urinary tract infections. Animals are very similar to people (I have three friends who are vets and we discuss medical issues all the time), so I don't think I'm off the mark. The protein IS tough on the kidney, however.

Again, I think you need to ask your vet some questions: what kind of crystals (if any) is my dog making? What kind of diet is needed to dissolve the crystals? What organisms are growing out (this can only be done with a culture!) and what are their susceptibilities. Once you have answers to these questions, you can go from there.
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Old 08-19-2009, 10:29 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Viralmd View Post

Lower pH in the urine is usually seen in the scenario of infection with organisms such as [i]E coli, Klebsiella[i] and other bacteria from the GI tract. And females, because of the short urethra, get UTIs much more frequently than males. In males there's also a risk of prostatitis, which requires MUCH more prolonged therapy.

.
Here you go. PH imbalance upsets the bacteria population, contributing to the development of UTI. Therefore, PH not only has something to do with stone formation but also plays a key role in UTI. This is a well known fact. I guess your view is that bacteria causes PH change. Our view is that lower or higher PH can favor one particular population of bacteria. If that bacteria cause UTI, the dog will develop UTI. PH is a very important requirement for the growth of many pathogenic bacteria.

However, I don’t know whether the particular diet formulation or the protein rich diet itself has something to do with it.

The protein rich diet may place extra burden on a dog that already had undiagnosed kidney problem, further exacerbating UTI problem. This is the reason I suggested a diet that helps kidney. Someone has already mentioned here that when the kidney problem shows up in urine/blood test, more than 75% of kidney has already irreversibly damaged. This also means that a normal urine/blood test doesn’t mean that your dog has a normal kidney.

Last edited by LingLing; 08-19-2009 at 10:37 AM..
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Old 08-19-2009, 11:32 AM
 
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Originally Posted by LingLing View Post
Here you go. PH imbalance upsets the bacteria population, contributing to the development of UTI. Therefore, PH not only has something to do with stone formation but also plays a key role in UTI. This is a well known fact. I guess your view is that bacteria causes PH change. Our view is that lower or higher PH can favor one particular population of bacteria. If that bacteria cause UTI, the dog will develop UTI. PH is a very important requirement for the growth of many pathogenic bacteria.

However, I don’t know whether the particular diet formulation or the protein rich diet itself has something to do with it.

The protein rich diet may place extra burden on a dog that already had undiagnosed kidney problem, further exacerbating UTI problem. This is the reason I suggested a diet that helps kidney. Someone has already mentioned here that when the kidney problem shows up in urine/blood test, more than 75% of kidney has already irreversibly damaged. This also means that a normal urine/blood test doesn’t mean that your dog has a normal kidney.

No, this is incorrect: NORMAL urine is STERILE (has NO bacteria in it). Changes in pH (and it's 'pH' not 'PH'). Changing the pH won't 'upset' the bacterial population because there is NO bacterial population. The pathogenesis of UTIs is, as I've explained, from EXTERNAL bacteria that ascend the urethra, not from the pH of the urine.
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Old 08-19-2009, 12:18 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Viralmd View Post
No, this is incorrect: NORMAL urine is STERILE (has NO bacteria in it). Changes in pH (and it's 'pH' not 'PH'). Changing the pH won't 'upset' the bacterial population because there is NO bacterial population. The pathogenesis of UTIs is, as I've explained, from EXTERNAL bacteria that ascend the urethra, not from the pH of the urine.
Okay. PH is wrong and pH is correct. Just you know that English is not my native language. I thought by now you should know by the way I wrote. However, I should write it correctly. Thank you for pointing it out. I apologize and need to see my English teacher for more training!!!

I was responding to the question about how the diet may contribute to the development of UTI. I didn’t bother to discuss what causes UTI.

Now, let us discuss of the cause of UTI.

UTI is a combination of bacterial growth and inflammation response.

First, where do bacteria come from? Bacteria come from external source as you mentioned. Bacteria are also actually always present around the bladder area and inside bladder. They are present at a very low copy number that can’t be detected by your conventional methods. Try a real time PCR using 16s rDNA degenerate primers!!! That you don’t see bacteria by your eye or your conventional methods doesn’t mean they are not there. In normal physiological condition, the immunosystem and the condition of the urine inhibit and control the growth of bacteria, so everything is normal.

Second, what causes UTI?

Possibility #1: Extra bacterial invasion as you suggested. The amount of bacteria simply overwhelms the immunosystem, resulting in UTI. In this case, there is always an event that leads to bacterial invasion, such as sexual intercourse. Or the dog simply dipped into a pool of bacteria.

Possibility #2: Something weakens immunosystem. The control that was placed on bacterial population by immunosystem is diminished. The bacteria that are present in bladder or adjacent to bladder take the opportunity and grow, resulting in UTI.

Possibility #3: The environment in bladder changes and the change favors the bacterial growth. The changes can be caused by the diminished function of kidney and other dietary reasons. The diet can change pH in bladder that holds urine. pH is a key requirement for bacterial attachment and proliferation. In human, we drink cranberry juice to prevent and treat UTI. Why? Cranberry juice changes pH and inhibits the bacteria attachment and growth. pH does play a role in UTI development and treatment.

To OP, there are many reasons for UTI. Diet can be one of them. In your case, you need to review your dog recent activity to reach your own conclusion. To viral MD, I can bet my life and career on the statement “ Normal urine is not sterile and it has bacteria in it” .

Last edited by LingLing; 08-19-2009 at 12:27 PM..
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Old 08-19-2009, 01:02 PM
 
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Originally Posted by LingLing View Post
To viral MD, I can bet my life and career on the statement “ Normal urine is not sterile and it has bacteria in it” .
Then you're in BIG trouble. Granted, I'm a board certified infectious diseases physician and have a Ph.D., as well, but you obviously won't be persuaded. Just 'Google' 'normal urine sterile' and see what comes up.

And 'pH' isn't strictly English. It's the universal denotation of degree of acidity, in many, many languages.

But I'm done here.

Last edited by Viralmd; 08-19-2009 at 03:01 PM..
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Old 08-20-2009, 07:37 AM
 
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[quote=Viralmd;10353620]Then you're in BIG trouble. Granted, I'm a board certified infectious diseases physician and have a Ph.D., as well, but you obviously won't be persuaded. Just 'Google' 'normal urine sterile' and see what comes up.

And 'pH' isn't strictly English. It's the universal denotation of degree of acidity, in many, many languages.

But I'm done here.[quote].

The common belief is that normal urine is sterile. The belief is the result of the limited technology in growing and detecting bacteria. When the new technology such as 16sDNA real time PCR developed, the statement that "normal urine is sterile" is no longer true. Now someone like you in the medical field would say something "Normal urine is virtually sterile". They added the word "virtually" to reflect the fact that they are not sure. If you google it, you will find both side of argument. If you do a pubmed search, you will see all kinds of publications. If you read them, you will know what I mean.

If you are an infectious disease specialist and have a Ph.D, you will know that just several years ago, the text book and common belief state that the pre-integration form of HIV cDNA is a circular form. The more recent textbook will say that it is a linear form. I am the leading author in identifying one of the mechanisms on how the circle may be formed. However, the mechanism I identified now may not be right in the future, simply because the technology and knowledge do develop.

As scientists, we do challenge the conventional belief all the time. The central dogma in molecular biology was proven totally inadequate when Retrovirus was discovered. If you are what you said, you should understand what I mean.

Yes, I agree I should write pH correctly. We always have a scientific editor on board to fix our mistakes. I usually don’t write pH as a word independently. I usually write a buffer formula such as 10mM Tris, pH7.4, therefore I didn’t think when I wrote that word. The fundamental argument you stated may not be wrong in the past. The new development in the microbiology field certainly doesn’t agree with your view and it has nothing to do with how I wrote pH or PH.

There is no need to get upset over this. This kind of argument happens all the time between a Ph.D and M.D., people in the field and people who are not in the field.
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Old 08-20-2009, 09:11 AM
 
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What I don't understand though, is if dogs were meant to live on a high meat source protein diet, then why is a Grain Free food with meat as the source of protein "hard" on the kidneys? I started feeding her Grain Free because the particular food was very excellent quality of food (non-commercial). Since I have heard that grains used as a protein source in food are not ideal for dogs since they were not biologically set up to properly digest, nor ingest grains on a daily basis. Also, what are crystals in the urine? Are they related to Kidney stones etc. and do they appear in a Urinalysis in some form? Thank you for your replies, and future ones.
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