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I know people stand on both sides of this topic. 4 yrs ago when Chaos was a puppy I know people would get upset because she would wrestle and play bite their dog or puppy. I allowed it as she was not being a bully and the dogs that had owners that think like me and let her play that way had dogs/puppies that bit her back in play. We seldom heard so much as a yip from them and none of them ran away trying to escape the play so we let them be. Yet some people would get upset and grab their dog/puppy and not let them play. "Puppies should not be biting other puppies" they would claim as they walked off in a huff. But a group of us refused to micromanage our dogs/puppies we instead let them be dogs only stepping in when a dog became a bully or if a terrified dog was involved.
Don't get me wrong we keep a close eye on the dogs and step in if we see a situation getting out of hand but that is seldom necessary as these dogs know how to play and new dogs to the group soon know too. The older dogs in the group would police the younger ones and handle what they felt was inappropriate behavior which is what a well socialized adult dog should do and the group has dogs of all ages and breeds. That policing behavior would upset people who just do not understand and some felt the adult was " attacking" their puppy so would get mad grab their puppy and leave when truth be it was letting the puppy know that was not acceptable behavior then inviting the puppy to continue to play in an appropriate way. A well socialized dog is great teacher!
I have alway said the most important thing a dog can learn is bite inhibition and the way they learn is in play as puppies. Dogs with bite inhibition can get in fights and never leave a mark on another dog and can be trusted with people too. I am not saying they will not get into fights but when they do no one ends up at the vets as there are no injuries because they know how to control their bite. Dogs without bite inhibition will cause injury as they will bite hard.
In October I was in Indonesia for a 2nd time and in Vietnam and you would see dogs all over just roaming free and I never saw one fight or even what I would call a dog reactive dog. I feel that is because these dogs are not only well socialized as they run loose but have great bite inhibition as they do not have people micromanaging their every move, they get to be dogs. And they get to be dogs with other dogs!
I just finished watching a video class called Growl class taught by Ian Dunbar. Ian says it is very important to let puppies play bite. When they are puppies the jaws are weak so while bites may hurt it will not really cause damage unlike later in life when jaws are strong not only will a bite hurt but it will cause damage if that dog did not learn bite inhibition. He says bite inhibition is the most important thing a dog can learn ( just as I have always believed). People can not teach bite inhibition as well as another dog can which is why the play is so important and when people step in and stop it because they do not think it is the proper way a puppy should be playing they are doing more harm then good. That is why there are so many dogs out there that bite not only other dogs but people and do a lot of damage.
I am interested in knowing where all of you stand As I know I have seen posts on here where people were upset because of other puppies/dogs play biting their puppy/dog. I am not talking about bullies where one dog is trying to escape as yes that should be stopped with a a time out for the bully. I am talking about good old wresting and play biting where the dogs seem to be having fun and are taking turns biting each other.
This is also why puppies should not leave a litter too young as those weeks of biting and wrestling with siblings is also a very important lesson in bite inhibition and dogs that leave a litter too soon tend to be dogs that will mouth you even as adults.
I have attached a bunch of photos I have taken over the past years of dogs using their mouths yup biting or about ready to do so in play. Some actually look like sweet gentle bites like Chaos and her black poodle friend Frannie and some look rather vicious, some are just one on one some are multiple dogs sometimes all biting one dog but the thing is every one of these is normal dog play. Not one of these dogs was injured and if things got out of hand which was actually very rare no one got injured because these dogs have all learned bite inhibition by being allowed to play this way. They are dogs not human kids and as dog owners people need to allow them to be so as when you do not you take a risk that some day your dog may snap and bite and cause injury because you never allowed him to learn to control his bite.
As I said I would love to have this start a discussion because bite inhibition is so very very important. I even labeled the photos with letters so if you see one that you just feel is wrong you can mention it but believe me I was the one with the camera often right there on the ground with them and all of this was play and lots of happy tired dogs after it. I would let my dogs play with any of these dogs as I know these are dogs with good bite inhibition. Yes some of them are my dogs, Chaos is in quite few as she was the one that often starts the play. She can look sweet as can be or she could make a wicked mean face!
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I see nothing but pictures of dogs being dogs and enjoying life. I don't understand any other way of looking at it, truthfully. What are dogs supposed to do together, play checkers?
If a dog is not engaging and just trying to get away from a dog who's play biting, then the play biting dog should be called off, but that doesn't mean the dog was doing something wrong. Sometimes a dog isn't good at reading other dogs' body language and doesn't realize when another dog is getting truly irritated, but again that doesn't mean a dog is being "bad", just socially inept. Again, time to call the dog off. When dogs are playing together for the first time or so, they do need supervision to make sure their play styles are compatible, and owners always need to pay attention at dog parks. But there's no need to be the fun police and forbid any biting.
W have one dog, Maddie, who plays rough and "bites" like the above dogs, but only with our other dog and very rarely she will find a dog at the park she wants to play with(she goes to the park to sniff, not play we have discovered)
She is also very vocal during play, with sounds very intimating if you don't realize shes just a noisy dog.
The hound we have doesn't bite during play at all, but he lets others play like that and with the exception of a few times(due to bad owners) he thoroughly enjoys himself. Him and Maddie look just like the pictures when they play with each.
We got them when they around 1 year old each, I have no idea what they were taught as puppies. Since they both came from big Houston shelters they were probably strays, so who knows what kind of upbringing they had.
I have seen several real fights though. One I had to break up because the aggressor dog refused to let go of an older lady's dog, and she couldn't get them apart. That one had blood and I've seen 2 more fights with blood. I've seen a few that were just very loud, but no dogs got hurt.
I made very certain that before I got a dog, I knew how to protect them and I watch them both very closely at the park, so I know their body language and can tell if they get unconformable, I also pay attention to everyone who comes in and we have left before from feeling uneasy about others dogs. I dislike people who come to park and just text the whole time while their dog runs 200ft from them.
4 yrs ago when Chaos was a puppy I know people would get upset because she would wrestle and play bite their dog or puppy. I allowed it as she was not being a bully and the dogs that had owners that think like me and let her play that way had dogs/puppies that bit her back in play. We seldom heard so much as a yip from them and none of them ran away trying to escape the play so we let them be. Yet some people would get upset and grab their dog/puppy and not let them play. "Puppies should not be biting other puppies" they would claim as they walked off in a huff. But a group of us refused to micromanage our dogs/puppies we instead let them be dogs only stepping in when a dog became a bully or if a terrified dog was involved.
Yes, agree. Unless one dog is bullying or harassing another dog they should be left to play. My blue heeler has no patience with rude dogs of any age and she will correct them as needed. Other owners often then look at her like she is a serial killer, especially when she corrects an older puppy. I normally simply say that she was correcting a rude dog/puppy, and people can take it or leave it; depending on the behavior of the owner I may say something further to explain.
I think, at least in my experience here where I live, that unless the owner has been exposed to a good trainer or belongs to a group of dog savvy individuals, they have no idea what healthy dog-dog behavior looks like and they certainly don't know or care that having a better understanding of the canine perspective of the world will make them a better dog owner. That said, I live in an agricultural state rife with puppy mills, where animals are still too often considered nothing more than property/livestock.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dashdog
I have alway said the most important thing a dog can learn is bite inhibition and the way they learn is in play as puppies. Dogs with bite inhibition can get in fights and never leave a mark on another dog and can be trusted with people too. I am not saying they will not get into fights but when they do no one ends up at the vets as there are no injuries because they know how to control their bite. Dogs without bite inhibition will cause injury as they will bite hard.
Dogs have all kinds of body language that signals how they are feeling; they don't want to pick a fight with another dog who, like them, has a mouthful of razor sharp teeth. So, while I agree much of it has to do with bite inhibition, I think this also connects with how a dog is socialized; yes they have to learn bite inhibition, but also they must become fluent in canine body language through interaction with other dogs and ongoing socialization throughout their life. A dog that has been properly socialized to different situations and different dogs is a more balanced dog better able to navigate through various dog-dog situations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dashdog
I just finished watching a video class called Growl class taught by Ian Dunbar. Ian says it is very important to let puppies play bite. When they are puppies the jaws are weak so while bites may hurt it will not really cause damage unlike later in life when jaws are strong not only will a bite hurt but it will cause damage if that dog did not learn bite inhibition. He says bite inhibition is the most important thing a dog can learn ( just as I have always believed). People can not teach bite inhibition as well as another dog can which is why the play is so important and when people step in and stop it because they do not think it is the proper way a puppy should be playing they are doing more harm then good. That is why there are so many dogs out there that bite not only other dogs but people and do a lot of damage.
I am interested in knowing where all of you stand As I know I have seen posts on here where people were upset because of other puppies/dogs play biting their puppy/dog. I am not talking about bullies where one dog is trying to escape as yes that should be stopped with a a time out for the bully. I am talking about good old wresting and play biting where the dogs seem to be having fun and are taking turns biting each other.
This is also why puppies should not leave a litter too young as those weeks of biting and wrestling with siblings is also a very important lesson in bite inhibition and dogs that leave a litter too soon tend to be dogs that will mouth you even as adults.
Agree that learning bite inhibition is a critical life skill for dogs, both for their interactions with other animals and humans. We humans complicate things for our dogs when our lack of knowledge causes us to intervene in what is otherwise happy friendly play.
I really like Ian Dunbar; he knows his stuff.
I am going to pick a nit- and that is all it is because I do agree with what you are saying, so this is more of a comment or addendum to what you said. I think we (not you necessarily) need to be careful not to "romanticize" the life of the (semi-feral ?) dog living in a pack. There is a fluid dynamic to a pack, and that can turn nasty in a split second. It isn't pretty, and in fact can be deadly when pack dynamic shifts and they pack up against another animal or human; the pack takes on a life of its own that is greater than the individual dogs.
Wonderful pictures of body language showing dogs playing and having fun all with great flashing of teeth and happy bodies.
The little white dog on the left in picture A looks just a tad anxious- brow furrowed and body is leaning away from the play- but that said, none of the other dogs are directing their play toward the little white dog, and she doesn't seem unduly worried, so may simply be trying to get out of the way of the oncoming dogs; just my sense of that one particular point in time
The little white dog on the left in picture A looks just a tad anxious- brow furrowed and body is leaning away from the play- but that said, none of the other dogs are directing their play toward the little white dog, and she doesn't seem unduly worried, so may simply be trying to get out of the way of the oncoming dogs; just my sense of that one particular point in time
The little white dog is Hanky and his is quite a bit older then the others and lives with the Irish cream retriever that Chaos is about to take down. He does not engage in the play but runs along with a worried expression on his face and he will rush in and break things up if he feels it is out of hand and despite his small size the others will listen to him. He is a little guy that can handle himself with bigger dogs and wild young ones.
Yes a dog needs to be socialized and it is the well socialized adults that will put a puppy in its place and will do so without injuring it if they have bite inhibition even if it looks like they are " attacking" the young dog. I have that issue with Chaos who is very well socialized and has fantastic bite inhibition but if a youngster gets out of hand and needs correction she will pin it and often they will scream in terror so people think she is harming their dog while in fact she has never left a mark on them. Because people get so upset I tend to only let her play with her friends now so I understand what what you are dealing with your heeler. Little do these people realise there dog will learn proper behavior much faster from your heeler of Chaos then they can teach them.
I think you are right about feral dogs but many of the dogs in Indonesia are not feral they are pets and in Bali on the one beach they all come hang out while the owners are out fishing or are there unloading fish and they just run and play and no one is micromanaging them so I do feel they are quite a bit different then a true feral dog. When I was there 27 yrs ago the dogs tended to be more feral and they all looked like that same breed that feral dogs tend to look like after generations but now there were lost of different breeds and most sported collars and had owners.
Here is a photo of one guy laying on the beach after a night of fishing and having unloaded his boat and the group of dogs choose to play around him and try to get him to join in so they are not feral they just do not use leashes and wander around
I have seen several real fights though. One I had to break up because the aggressor dog refused to let go of an older lady's dog, and she couldn't get them apart. That one had blood and I've seen 2 more fights with blood. I've seen a few that were just very loud, but no dogs got hurt.
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When there is blood that means the dog does not have an inhibited bite and as Ian Dunbar says I would rather have my dog dealing with a dog that has been in a dozen fights that resulted in no injuries verses a dog that has never been in a fight thus has an unknown bite/fight ratio. a dog with an unknown bite/fight ratio may not have bite inhibition and if it does become involved in one it may injure the other dog.
I like your camera. I need to replace my 10 year old camera that could not good moving photos like yours.
I am familiar with the loose dogs you are speaking of. We owned such dogs back in my country where dog ownership is completely different than here. Training a dog to sit and stay was useless to us as their purpose for keeping is to guard. A leash is non existent. Our dogs would be let out to roam but always returned home. All we needed was a good dog with a brave soul and a loud bark and our mutts played that role without fail. Since birth, we leave the adult dogs to teach the pups manners, including play fighting which may look scary to anyone who never watched puppies in a litter play as they grow. By the time they reached adulthood, they know the rules in the yard and with us. However, there are exceptions... we had a few who were strays, teenagers who we adopted but were unruly. They messed with the older ones who quickly put them in their place. Some were quite out of control, we had a terrier who bit everyone and the other dogs, unprovoked. Dogs who doesn't learn quickly to control their biting, and how hard they bite, gets eliminated. Hence, the owned loose dogs you saw were probably the ones who learned to be good adults.
My Catahoula and my kelpie mix look like rabid lunatics when they are playing (and sound like it). As long as the other dog seems happy and does not have its tail tucked between its legs, I let the play continue.
The one problem with the kelpie though is that he will sometimes join in when another dog is being picked on. I don't think he's actually trying to be a bully - I think he's just trying to get in on the game. It's interesting because he's easy to call off in those cases. It's like he realizes he's misinterpreted something in his eagerness to play.
If he's playing and the other dog is fully engaged with him though, he's impossible to call off. I just have to let the storm play itself out. Of course, the bonus to that is that I end up with a very tired dog. The Catahoula is largely indifferent to other dogs, so when he finds one he likes, I basically let him determine the length of the encounter also.
And if there's a momentary confrontation, I don't get freaked out. Dogs will be dogs. Unless there's sustained bullying going on or a dog is yelping, being shaken or exhibiting signs of distress, I tend to just stay by the sidelines. An attack or fight looks nothing like playtime.
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