U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Pets > Dogs
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 09-15-2009, 09:12 AM
 
Location: Texas or Cascais, Portugal
3,066 posts, read 2,896,746 times
Reputation: 7334

Advertisements

I think you are probably right. The trainer suggested bringing him to class to observe how he handles it but I don't think he will be able to relax in that environment. He's already been through a lot in two weeks time. The trainer is coming to the house Monday to observe the dogs together and provide guidance for me. My thought is that he is never going to be very comfortable with dogs he doesn't know and that I need to get control of the aggressor but, I'll see what the trainer's opinion is. I just feel bad that he has to be uncomfortable in his own house.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 09-15-2009, 11:54 AM
 
Location: Santa Barbara CA
4,523 posts, read 9,636,298 times
Reputation: 8002
I have a question for you how do all the other dogs behave around the lab mix? Do they spend alot of time offering submissive gestures towards her especially when they first see her?

I ask this as I often see people label dogs with aggression issues as the Alpha dog. A true alpha dog does not use aggression to control others as they do not have to . A look or quick growl is all it takes to keep the others in line. They will use aggression when challenged. When there is a true alpha dog it is a very confident dog and you will see other dogs greet it with submissive gestures.

There is what I believe to be a true alpha dog that comes to the dog park a couple times a week and all the dogs run up and offer submissive gestures to him.Some do not leave him alone as they are in his face licking it the whole time with their bodies lowered in a very submissive position. The only aggressive acts I have seen in him is if he thinks play between two or more dogs is getting too rough he will rush over and issue a growl that brings the play to a quick stop then he trots off. He trots with such an air of confidence as he knows he is top dog so do you when you see him.

Some dogs just want control as my Jazz she is a coward with fear based aggression but she is a border collie cattle dog mix so all her genes tell her TAKE CONTROL! She does take control but uses aggression to do so. People kept saying she is an alpha, dominant dog and nothing could be further from the truth. Aggression is usually fear or anxiety based. She does have control of all the other dogs but no she is not an alpha but I will say she is a queen. "off with your head if you do not follow my orders"

When I have brought new dogs into my mix I gate them into the dining room until Jazz gets use to them being around. In the mean time we do lots of on leash walks and obedience work with all the dogs together. Once she is acting more relaxed I start letting the new dog out when I am around but when I am not able to watch things the new guy goes back into the dining room. I try to make Jazz see the new dog means good things for her. It is not something that happens over night as there is no quick fix to this type of issue.

Just be very careful as when there are more then two dogs involved in an attack the pack mentality takes over and your dog that is being attacked is much more likely to be seriously injured or killed. Keep that in mind if you have cats too. One dog chasing a cat is not even half the threat that two or more dogs chasing the cat is as dogs have a pack mentality and cats often get killed is such a situation despite the fact that each individual dog is a sweet dog and maay love the cat.

Good luck and bless you for giving your brother in law and his dogs a place to stay during his crisis.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-15-2009, 12:17 PM
 
Location: Texas or Cascais, Portugal
3,066 posts, read 2,896,746 times
Reputation: 7334
[quote=Dashdog;10766900]I have a question for you how do all the other dogs behave around the lab mix? Do they spend alot of time offering submissive gestures towards her especially when they first see her?

Well, I have two other dogs, one is an old shih tzu and she completely ignores the new dogs. They may approach her and lick her a little but she does not engage them at all. I also have a shepard/mutt mix who gets along fine with both the lab mix (who is attacking my other dog) and the pit bull. He has not been involved in any of the fights and plays well with the lab mix. But he likes all dogs and is not aggressive. Neither of my dogs are submissive toward the lab though. As a matter of fact if the lab mix takes my other dog's toy, he will take it away from her without any problem.

As far as the pack mentality goes, I understand. The lab mix and pitt have pinned him on his back on every occasion and latch onto his throat so, it's a serious situation.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-15-2009, 03:21 PM
 
1,688 posts, read 6,615,755 times
Reputation: 1984
Quote:
Originally Posted by nurider2002 View Post
My thought is that he is never going to be very comfortable with dogs he doesn't know and that I need to get control of the aggressor
There are going to be all sorts of ways the situation can be interpreted - and a lot, if not all, is going to depend on what school of thought the trainer that you're using subscribes to.

The interesting thing here is that it's very, very specific from the Madame Lab. She obviously gets on with other dogs regardless of gender, but not your problem chappie. There's too much information missing (don't forget a lot of canine communication is incredibly subtle) to hazard a guess as to why, but I'll be interested to hear what the trainer has to say.

One thing though that did come to mind - you need to put Madame Lab's actions/reactions into context too. While it's incredibly difficult to try to feel anything but negative towards her I'm sure, do bear in mind what all the upheaval has meant to her too. She's been uprooted and her surroundings have changed. But most of all she must be incredibly confused and unhappy as to the changes she detects in her beloved owner - both from his and other humans emotional states and perhaps too from any chemical changes she detects via smell. In fairness to her, she may not be quite herself either. (I really do appreciate that it's hard to give a hoot when she's causing all the difficulties. In your shoes, I have to admit I'd be thinking murderous thoughts.)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-15-2009, 04:41 PM
 
Location: Visitation between Wal-Mart & Home Depot
8,309 posts, read 33,382,235 times
Reputation: 7038
Quote:
Originally Posted by FiveHorses View Post
One thing though that did come to mind - you need to put Madame Lab's actions/reactions into context too. While it's incredibly difficult to try to feel anything but negative towards her I'm sure, do bear in mind what all the upheaval has meant to her too. She's been uprooted and her surroundings have changed. But most of all she must be incredibly confused and unhappy as to the changes she detects in her beloved owner - both from his and other humans emotional states and perhaps too from any chemical changes she detects via smell. In fairness to her, she may not be quite herself either. (I really do appreciate that it's hard to give a hoot when she's causing all the difficulties. In your shoes, I have to admit I'd be thinking murderous thoughts.)
Very insightful...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-15-2009, 07:04 PM
 
Location: Wasilla, Alaska
17,850 posts, read 19,618,370 times
Reputation: 6480
I had a similar situation with my dogs. My Alaskan Husky/Lab mixed 6 year-old female was very aggressive toward my Mastiff/Lab mixed male puppy when I first brought him home and left them alone together. While I was around, there were no problems. But when I was not home to intervene, my female would attack the male puppy.

I finally put a stop to it by muzzling the female every time I left them home alone. She could still drink through her muzzle, but she could not bark, bite, or eat. She stayed on the muzzle for just over 8 months. Now that my Mastiff male is fully grown, and more than three times the female's weight, she no longer attacks him. She still plays dominance games with him (standing sideways to provoke him, stealing his toys, etc.) , but he knows he is top dog so most of the time he just ignores her. If she steals one of his toys or his bone, and he is feeling frisky, he will follow her around while she plays "keep-away". This could last for up to an hour before she becomes careless and he is able to regain his stolen toy/bone.

The reason I chose to use a muzzle was because I wanted to keep both dogs together. The only reason I have two dogs is so they can keep each other company while I am away at work. So separating them and keeping them separate was not an option for me.

Both dogs have a good relationship now, and will fall asleep together in the same doggy bed (they each have their own bed). She may think she is still in charge, but he knows better.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-15-2009, 07:15 PM
 
Location: In a van, down by the river.... LOL
21,338 posts, read 7,362,357 times
Reputation: 33301
Which dog in your house is considered the leader of the pack when the two visitors aren't there? If it's the one who's being attacked, then it's a fight in the house for top dog placement imo.

However, if a short term dog was doing that to my dog and I couldn't ensure my dogs safety at all times, then the aggressive dog would be muzzled when allowed near my dog, but also kept separate via a gate or the like. It's YOUR dogs house and the other dogs are visitors! It isn't fair to your dog for your house to be taken over and ruled by this lab mix. NO WAY I would let a dog run my household. That dog needs to know there's a new sheriff in town and who it's going to be listening to and obeying now. The best way you can calm whatever upheavel is in this labs head about its owner being incapacitated is to be firm, but loving; just as you would be when parenting.

You simply can not allow this situation to continue. It's intolerable and you're the only one with the intelligence to get in under control. If the short term safety of your dog can only be had by that lab being muzzled, you need to run out and buy one asap. Waiting to see what this trainer thinks is nice in thought, but your dog could be dead by Monday.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-16-2009, 05:45 AM
 
Location: Texas or Cascais, Portugal
3,066 posts, read 2,896,746 times
Reputation: 7334
The dog being attacked is not the leader under normal circumstances. He has always looked to the shepard mix for leadership (who gets along fine with everyone). Muzzleing the perpetrator would be a consideration under normal circumstances but, this is my terminally ill brother-in-law's dog. I don't want to do anything to stress him out further and, his dog being muzzled would definitely be an issue for him. Also, as annoyed as I am with the lab mix who is initiating the attacks, I'm fairly certain it is due to something my dog is communicating. At times the lab mix will sit next to mine, lick him on the head or playfully nudge him, attempting to get him to play; like she does other dogs that she does play with. Even after a vicious fight, she and/or the pit will come up later and lick him or lie down next to him as if nothing happened! So, I don't think she is just out to be top dog and get rid of him. I think he is sending off signals that is setting the dynamic up (I know, sounds like I'm blaming the victim) but, he has never been able to socialize with other dogs so, it does seem that he needs some type of training. I have been working with the lab mix individually, just doing basic obedience (which she has never had) and establishing that I'm the boss. She responds positively to the one on one attention and we haven't had any fights since Sunday so, I'm hoping something is working. Although when she attacks I fantasize about killing her, she really is not a bad dog. I think she is stressed watching her master get sicker and sicker, being displaced from her home, sensing how stressed out we are, and dealing with a socially inept dog. But hey, I don't really know what is going on, that's why I posted and why I have the trainer coming next week. But I do appreciate everybody's feedback. I don't really believe there are "bad dogs", it's just bad behavior that I need to get control of.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-16-2009, 08:44 AM
 
1,688 posts, read 6,615,755 times
Reputation: 1984
Quote:
Originally Posted by nurider2002 View Post
I don't want to do anything to stress him out further and, his dog being muzzled would definitely be an issue for him.
So, I don't think she is just out to be top dog and get rid of him. .
A muzzle is NOT the answer. A muzzle is going to make things worse. A muzzle would escalate this to the nth degree.

Lab Lady is perceiving a threat and reacts. You take away her ability to react - however inappropriately - you are going to get one seriously stressed out dog who may take all sorts of routes (just as inappropriate) to get out from between a rock and a hard place.

What I highlighted is key. Dogs do NOT spend their time sitting around planning a coup. This is the nonsense that certain media-fanned fires spread. To treat this as a dominance issue is going to entirely miss what is truly at work and is going to do a great disservice to both dogs.

At a guess, I'd say there is something that happens, something so subtle that it's being missed, that sets her off. She is reacting - and the clue is in the word react. What's that law (physics?) that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction? Key is identifying the action to which she reacts and taking it from there.

If problem chappie was poorly socialised, his communication signals will also be poor. It could be something along the lines of a person coming up to you and going "BOO!" right in your face when he really means, "Hi, howzitgoin'?" from a more suitable distance. She may be a bit hyper-sensitive just now too - and whereas the others are willing to ignore it or just move away (or have become used to it), she's not.

But I guarantee you that she's not sitting in the corner of the kitchen planning her next blitzkrig and drawing up the plans to her new kingdom either.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-16-2009, 08:53 AM
 
Location: Texas or Cascais, Portugal
3,066 posts, read 2,896,746 times
Reputation: 7334
[quote=FiveHorses;10780155]
If problem chappie was poorly socialised, his communication signals will also be poor. It could be something along the lines of a person coming up to you and going "BOO!" right in your face when he really means, "Hi, howzitgoin'?" from a more suitable distance. She may be a bit hyper-sensitive just now too - and whereas the others are willing to ignore it or just move away (or have become used to it), she's not.


That's it right there. My boy does not know how to communicate with other dogs, never has. That said, they BOTH need an intervention.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Pets > Dogs
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top