U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Pets > Dogs
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 1.5 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Jump to a detailed profile or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Business Search - 14 Million verified businesses
Search for:  near: 
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 12-31-2009, 08:39 PM
 
3,157 posts, read 3,458,765 times
Reputation: 3043

Advertisements

So, I'm sitting here watching Cesar Milan work with two wolf hybrids.

I just saw him tell the owners of the aggressive, fearful wolf hybrid that it's ok to take these dogs to the dog park. He also pushed the dog down to the ground to make it submissive, which I think is where my neighbors got this tip, which made their dog even more aggressive toward mine than it was originally.

Also, one of the dogs was baring his teeth toward Cesar's pack, and he told the owners it wasn't being aggressive.

And, one of the dogs in the pack was Baby Girl, a very fearful dobie/greyhound mix who was in the episode just on before it - the dog was so afraid she couldn't eat, and he exposed her to two aggressive wolf hybrids.

I don't get it...I just don't.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 12-31-2009, 09:43 PM
 
Location: Way South of the Volvo Line
2,748 posts, read 5,134,277 times
Reputation: 2678
Keep in mind that, for better or worse, what you see on any tv show is the result of careful and vigorous editing. Usually there is a lot more involved than you realize.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-31-2009, 11:27 PM
 
Location: Mostly in my head
16,484 posts, read 31,286,032 times
Reputation: 12552
and lots of us don't agree w/his methods.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-31-2009, 11:42 PM
 
Location: Way South of the Volvo Line
2,748 posts, read 5,134,277 times
Reputation: 2678
I just watched the episode you spoke of and I have to say that I think Cesar was right on. I didn't see any sadistic or unethical manner of using the forced submissive pose to the wolf hybrids. If you have seen any stable group of dogs (or wolves) interacting, they will force a member to submission either subtly or dramatically for the general welfare of the pack. Ask a dog sled racer, a kennel owner , or a dog rehabilitator. I didn't see anything in that episode that made me question his methods.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-01-2010, 05:40 AM
 
2,179 posts, read 4,804,869 times
Reputation: 1544
if your neighbor gives the alpha roll to his dog and then it becomes more aggressive toward your dog ,then he didn't make the dog submit correctly,and also your being worried about his dog may be picked up by the other dog.
example I have a 8lb doxie that was attacked by a large dog. I have no problem with the dog around any dogs but when my wife is around this dog wants to attack every big dog he sees. because she is so uptight about the dog getting attacked again.
yes dogs pick up what you are feeling.....they cant talk or understand our language but they can read our feelings. so I would suggest you relax and project no fear of the other dog attacking........but I may be wrong
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-01-2010, 06:43 AM
 
3,157 posts, read 3,458,765 times
Reputation: 3043
Quote:
Originally Posted by tcrackly View Post
I just watched the episode you spoke of and I have to say that I think Cesar was right on. I didn't see any sadistic or unethical manner of using the forced submissive pose to the wolf hybrids. If you have seen any stable group of dogs (or wolves) interacting, they will force a member to submission either subtly or dramatically for the general welfare of the pack. Ask a dog sled racer, a kennel owner , or a dog rehabilitator. I didn't see anything in that episode that made me question his methods.
I didn't say it was sadistic or unethical - but I question the wisdom of the stuff I posted. It's not fair for the other dogs in the dog park to have these two hybrids there - it's not like Cesar is going to live with these owners and advise them - the owners said at the end that they now bring their dogs to the dog park.

Also, there are better ways of training your dog than through fear submission (I don't know anything about dog sled racing - any kennel owner who did this to my dog would not be a happy kennel owner - the certified trainers I know use positive methods).

I think there are good things that Cesar does as well but these specific things didn't seem very good.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-01-2010, 10:24 AM
 
Location: Way South of the Volvo Line
2,748 posts, read 5,134,277 times
Reputation: 2678
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorasMom View Post
I didn't say it was sadistic or unethical - but I question the wisdom of the stuff I posted. It's not fair for the other dogs in the dog park to have these two hybrids there - it's not like Cesar is going to live with these owners and advise them - the owners said at the end that they now bring their dogs to the dog park.

Also, there are better ways of training your dog than through fear submission (I don't know anything about dog sled racing - any kennel owner who did this to my dog would not be a happy kennel owner - the certified trainers I know use positive methods).

I think there are good things that Cesar does as well but these specific things didn't seem very good.
I don't know if you saw a different edited version than what I saw, but the hybrid was muzzled for precaution and I saw no evidence of an extreme event beyond what I would see in any American dog park today.
A submission roll is the last resort to an extreme dog etiquette breach(dogs invented this, not people). It is not based on fear as much as on mutual respect and acceptance of a pecking order. If you studied any social animal species, particularly the mammals, there IS a pecking order that is expected to followed. Some animals are more demonstrative about meting this out than others. It is the equivalent of a parent expecting follow through of household order.
Besides, the show showed marked progress of the hybrids in question as well as happy, satisfied owners. Cesar was not in fear for his resident pack and the owners wer not in fear for their dogs. Seems every body is happy to me.
My husband and I hunt with my Vizsla dog. We also sleep with him, eat in the same room with him, and travel with him. I have had occasion in extreme situations to grab him by the scruff of the neck and release and once even put him down in submission over possession of a bone. I have to rely on his behavioral compliance so I can be sure he will obey instruction in a dangerous field situation or even social situation....for HIS own protection. He is not traumatized or overly submissive( he still tests when he can because he is alpha). He is comfortable knowing who's in charge because that is how a successful pack (EVERY DOG thinks in term of pack) hunts,; by the delegation and acceptance of cooperative roles.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-01-2010, 10:46 AM
 
Location: Santa Barbara CA
3,533 posts, read 5,135,864 times
Reputation: 5295
"A submission roll is the last resort to an extreme dog etiquette breach(dogs invented this, not people)."

Sorry I do have to disagree with this as people thought they were seeing alpha wolves roll the others into a submissive posture but that has since then proved to not be true as what is actually happening is one of the wolves or dogs decides to submit and rolls into that posture so there is a huge difference in someone grabbing you and tossing you on to your back and you deciding rather then risk a fight to submit and put yourself there so No dogs did not invent the alpha roll humans did because they thought that was what they saw wolves do but research now shows that is not correct. It is not a " you do as I say or else" posture but a "please do not hurt me" one.

Adults will sometimes roll a puppy but that is not what is happening in the adult world.One is submitting to the other to save itself.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-01-2010, 10:54 AM
 
Location: San Diego
5,045 posts, read 8,460,221 times
Reputation: 4630
Quote:
Originally Posted by tcrackly View Post
I don't know if you saw a different edited version than what I saw, but the hybrid was muzzled for precaution and I saw no evidence of an extreme event beyond what I would see in any American dog park today.
I hope I'm misinterpreting this, but did he really bring a muzzled dog into an off-leash dog park??
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-01-2010, 03:18 PM
 
203 posts, read 400,962 times
Reputation: 414
What I find most disturbing about this is that ANY T.V. show would promote owning wolf-dog hybrids as "pets". Wolf-hybrids can be very dangerous, and statistics show that they are 11 times more likely to attack and kill a human than domestic dogs. These animals are NOT domestic dogs, and have very specific requirements for containment and handling that most "pet" owners cannot safely accomodate and manage. I think that anyone keeping wild canids and crossing them with dogs to sell the puppies for money is an animal abuser, pure and simple. Wolves are intelligent, social, wild canids, NOT house pets.... they do not belong in a cage, siring litters for greedy humans to sell.

Wolf Hollow, in Ipswich Mass, a educational sanctuary that promotes conservation of wild wolves, tells the story of one wolf hybrid they took in, called Bear...

" Over the 18 years that we have been educating people, we have tried to discourage hybrids as pets due to the fact that they are not easy to raise and most are euthanized at a very young age do to the inability of most folks who get them to have them as house pets.
Over the years we have turned down hundreds of requests to take someone's hybrid as they could no longer keep it for a variety of reasons.
Bear came to us at 3 months old. The gentleman who got him realized, even at that young age, he was not dealing with a house pet. Due to wild puppy behavior and inability to train in many ways, he decided that it was best to give him up."

It should also be noted that many people who claim great success with a "pet" hybrid...claiming it behaves just like a domestic dog...in fact, do NOT have a hybrid, but a northern breed cross. There is a market for these animals, and byber's take advantage of the fact that a GSD/Malamute cross can look very much like a wolf, and sell these animals to unsuspecting people, claiming they are wolf-crosses.

I find it outrageous that any TV show would legitimize the cruel practice of owning these animals be featuring them on a dog-training show and claiming that all you need to successfully own one is the right training. Milan may have finally overstepped his boundaries with this one.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $84,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Pets > Dogs

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:45 AM.

2005-2014, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25 - Top