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The one thing that makes our debt now different than our debt back in the 30's and 40's is that we were a nation of creditors back then, and are a nation of consumers now. We had more manufactoring and other countries owed us money. Look at now, where we owe others money.
The major difference is that we had a period of unprecedented prosperity following WWII. Had we not been the only industrial power left standing at the end of the war, we would have had a much harder time paying down debt and establishing a decent living standard for the people. The problem is I do not see the possibility of that scenario bailing us out this time.
BS, here is the proof. It is your argument that is the staw man.
"This is why it is pure folly for the Obama administration to encourage talk about curbing the deficit. What’s needed is exactly the opposite: greater stimulus, greater deficits, and stimulus programs and budgetary expenditures"
"Q: Is national debt actually a good thing?
Typically we cringe when we hear how high the national debt has gotten and curse the drunken sailor-like spending habits of the government. But I read an article by a economist named Ken Fisher, who made a pretty compelling arguement that we actually want debt.
If you'd rather not read the entire thing, he basically says that when the government borrows money and then spends that money, it passes through many different people's hands in different sectors of the economy, thereby stimulating it."
"The notion that the national debt places an unfair burden on future generations is largely, not entirely but largely, political hooey! Let me say that again: the U.S. national debt should never be paid off. In fact, a worldwide financial disaster would be triggered if more than a fairly small fraction were ever paid off."
Jim, do you not understand that Bush and R's piled two to three times debt upon US as Obama?
They just ran if off-budget to help hide it from being accounted as part of an annual deficit. How do you think they funded the Endless Wars for the benefit of the warfare industry and crony corporations?
D = R, just the particular lies and packaging are different.
Jim, do you not understand that Bush and R's piled two to three times debt upon US as Obama?
They just ran if off-budget to help hide it from being accounted as part of an annual deficit. How do you think they funded the Endless Wars for the benefit of the warfare industry and crony corporations?
D = R, just the particular lies and packaging are different.
You are missing the point of the thread, it is not about who ran up more debt, there is plenty of blame to heap on both parties, the point that I was trying to make is that we now have people trying to tell us government debt is actually a good thing. I was accused of making a false argument, and so provided proof of people saying so.
You are missing the point of the thread, it is not about who ran up more debt, there is plenty of blame to heap on both parties, the point that I was trying to make is that we now have people trying to tell us government debt is actually a good thing. I was accused of making a false argument, and so provided proof of people saying so.
Gotcha. I tend to look at the debts -- of all sorts -- as more of a symptom.
Crony Corporatism does not work well for any others than the Crony Corporats.
All seem to promote privatizing profits and dumping US with their trash, waste and debt. Most of US have sort of figured that out by now.
Even the path out is clear -- Gonna have to raise taxes, cut off the imports and get US back to work. Not Rocket Science. Just Basic GTFU 101.
EVERYBODY -- except ludicrous Global Corporatism BSer already know this.
What is seems a lot of folks have not figured out is the .gov is already bought and sold by the Corporations -- and that is what made all this possible. So help is not the way from the .gov in any meaningful level.
Either way, it looks like we will have to sink the boat to get the CorpRats off.
So drink, baby, drink. Debt, debt and mo' debt. And Burn, baby, burn.
Gotcha. I tend to look at the debts -- of all sorts -- as more of a symptom.
Crony Corporatism does not work well for any others than the Crony Corporats.
All seem to promote privatizing profits and dumping US with their trash, waste and debt. Most of US have sort of figured that out by now.
Even the path out is clear -- Gonna have to raise taxes, cut off the imports and get US back to work. Not Rocket Science. Just Basic GTFU 101.
EVERYBODY -- except ludicrous Global Corporatism BSer already know this.
What is seems a lot of folks have not figured out is the .gov is already bought and sold by the Corporations -- and that is what made all this possible. So help is not the way from the .gov in any meaningful level.
Either way, it looks like we will have to sink the boat to get the CorpRats off.
So drink, baby, drink. Debt, debt and mo' debt. And Burn, baby, burn.
I agree with most of what you say. The difference is I don't see it as corporations controlling government, they are one in the same, and they are mutually beneficial. It is all about power and control, this is why so many corporate execs go into government and vice versa.
The government created and expanded corporate charters and then they come in and act like they are saving the day with regulations. (Written by corporate lawyers BTW)
My worry is that crony corporatism is used to show how bad freedom and capitalism is, when our system is not even close free.
Consequence of deficit spending today: We’re stuffing money/labor into plugging up monstrous holes in an outdated/weak dyke in an effort to bring back the Economy.
Until there’s a concrete, visionary plan to build a new dyke, deficit spending is nothing more than Lies, Danm Lies, and Economics. I just hope there’s a plan.
Consequence of deficit spending today: We’re stuffing money/labor into plugging up monstrous holes in an outdated/weak dyke in an effort to bring back the Economy.
Until there’s a concrete, visionary plan to build a new dyke, deficit spending is nothing more than Lies, Danm Lies, and Economics. I just hope there’s a plan.
And there in lies the crux of the problem, the plan if it is going to improve the situation must come from the people. It is only rational to expect everyone to act in their own best self interest. The corporation’s acts in their own interests, politicians act in their own interests, the only people not acting in their own interests, are the people. They have expected others to act in their interest for them. Can you imagine any group of people being so naive? They have been lulled into a state of complacency by an economy and life style that was provided by the hard work and sacrifice of past generations. They have neglected their duty as citizens to be involved in their own government. And now they wonder how it has come to be that their interests are not being served. Unfortunately, the best thing that could happen to this country is a depression so severe that made people really suffer. I believe that it will only be thru the hard times of depression that people will gain the common sense and determination to regain the power over their lives
that they have until now, let slip thru their fingers. It will only be suffering that will give them courage to stand up and fight for themselves and for their futures.
I agree with most of what you say. The difference is I don't see it as corporations controlling government, they are one in the same, and they are mutually beneficial. It is all about power and control, this is why so many corporate execs go into government and vice versa.
The government created and expanded corporate charters and then they come in and act like they are saving the day with regulations. (Written by corporate lawyers BTW)
My worry is that crony corporatism is used to show how bad freedom and capitalism is, when our system is not even close free.
Agreed. The corporations and government in bed together is pretty much fascism at its fineest. We do not have a true market economy and all those saying capitalism failed do not understand the market.
You are so sensitive, I make a little joke about your left wing status and you get all defensive, lighten up.
I don't care what you call me, what is bothersome is your consistent need to politicize matters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hilgi
When you talk about using the force of government to take money from peaceful people you are being political.
No, yet this comment is entirely political. I'm interested in Political Philosophy and Economics your your political rhetoric.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hilgi
Millions of people making thousands of decisions each day in regards to themselves and their families that can't be plotted on a projection.
Your point here is silly, its like claiming that the problem with Newton is that he did not understand Quantum Mechanics. Keynes did not have the computational framework nor the theoretical framework to think about complex adaptive systems.
I'm not sure why you are including Hayek here as you are pretty much just repeating his criticism of Macro. Also, what you are saying has little to do with Keynes in particular but is rather an attack on macro-economics. The criticism is just as applicable to Monetarist as it is Keynesians.
BS, here is the proof. It is your argument that is the staw man.
This is funny because you are again just appealing to fallacies. You quoted a statements about stimulus spending, which is no where near the same as suggesting that "deficits don't matter". Fiscal policy is really simple:
Deficit spend when the economy crashes, pay down the deficit when the economy booms.
This is no different than what households do:
Save money when times are good, use your savings when times are bad.
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