Why the hate for Unions? (bankrupt, expenses, companies, wages)

[NorthStarDelight]

Over and over again, I hear about how "evil" unions are, and how they've "destroyed" this country. Please tell me, what's so "evil" about forming a Union? In a free society, people should be allowed to determine what their time is worth when working for someone else, and if wage levels are lower than what people are willing to work for, the workers need to have some way of holding back their supply of labor so that they can demand more pay. Thus, unions were formed. Companies that were unwilling to pay what their employees wanted in pay found their match in unions, as they could just go on strike and withhold their labor until their demands were met.

But these days, even with wages falling and prices rising (have you noticed the price of gas and food lately?? ), one would think Unions would be making a huge comeback, with people in the service industries especially, going on massive strikes in order to win the wage increases that they so desperately need and deserve. It worked in the early decades of the 20th century, there's no reason why it couldn't work now.

There's absolutely no reason why wages should be falling while costs go up - that is caused by corporate greed, plain and simple. Big-box stores pay crappy wages, as they know they can. If there was a Big-Box Union that went on strike 5 weeks before Christmas, nationwide, you can bet your bottom dollar that the big-box marts would raise wages to what the union demanded. $20 an hour, $25 an hour, it doesn't matter, they'd have no choice to pay those wages, or it's bye-bye Big Box Mart...LOL.

I sincerely hope that Unions will be able to make a comeback, and soon. We, as a country, will sorely regret it if we don't change the economic path we're currently taking.

Comments and thoughts, pro and con, are highly welcomed. Union-haters, please tell me, why the hate? Inquiring minds wanna know.

[las vegas drunk]

Wrong forum. This crap is for the politics section.

[mary54mi]

My hubby has always been a union member, worked for a private company though. That's the difference. Public unions are going to stifle all municipalities with the legecy costs. It's all taxpayers that are paying their benefits, that's a very difficult problem.

[cowboyxjon]

Wrong forum, really.

I wouldn't want to work in a union environment because I like merit-based pay. Why should I receive the same raise as everyone else even if I work harder than the guy next to me? I think unions are okay for certain work environments, but I don't see the point in public employee unions, for instance.

[jtur88]

The short answer is that Unions are no different than anything else. Their structure is subject to the abuse of power. The union pendulum has swung to the point at which that abuse of power was widely recognized, and the public has fallen out of love with them.

Originally Posted by cowboyxjon

Wrong forum, really.

I wouldn't want to work in a union environment because I like merit-based pay. Why should I receive the same raise as everyone else even if I work harder than the guy next to me? I think unions are okay for certain work environments, but I don't see the point in public employee unions, for instance.

Why do you think your employer would pay you "according to your merit", when your employer can pay whatever he wants, unless there is a risk that he will lose his entire work force if he doesn't? You are apparently the only worker in the world who is not expendable, because everyone else knows he can be replaced if he demands "what he is worth".

"Working harder" is not what makes you worth your pay. If I came on your jobsite, I'd have to work ten times has hard as you do to accomplish the same productivity, because I lack your skills and experience and routinized execution. Why should your employer pay me ten times as much to work ten times as hard? What would take me all day and plenty of sweat, you can do in an hour with a sandwich in your left hand. You want to get paid according to how hard you work?

Do you think that public employees don't "work hard" enough to deserve collective bargaining to raise their overall pay and benefits? Do you think the government will just pay them what they are worth, automatically, without bargaining? How do you think public employees increased their pay grades to what they are?

[RedNC]

Originally Posted by NorthStarDelight

Over and over again, I hear about how "evil" unions are, and how they've "destroyed" this country. Please tell me, what's so "evil" about forming a Union? In a free society, people should be allowed to determine what their time is worth when working for someone else, and if wage levels are lower than what people are willing to work for, the workers need to have some way of holding back their supply of labor so that they can demand more pay. Thus, unions were formed. Companies that were unwilling to pay what their employees wanted in pay found their match in unions, as they could just go on strike and withhold their labor until their demands were met.

But these days, even with wages falling and prices rising (have you noticed the price of gas and food lately?? ), one would think Unions would be making a huge comeback, with people in the service industries especially, going on massive strikes in order to win the wage increases that they so desperately need and deserve. It worked in the early decades of the 20th century, there's no reason why it couldn't work now.

There's absolutely no reason why wages should be falling while costs go up - that is caused by corporate greed, plain and simple. Big-box stores pay crappy wages, as they know they can. If there was a Big-Box Union that went on strike 5 weeks before Christmas, nationwide, you can bet your bottom dollar that the big-box marts would raise wages to what the union demanded. $20 an hour, $25 an hour, it doesn't matter, they'd have no choice to pay those wages, or it's bye-bye Big Box Mart...LOL.

I sincerely hope that Unions will be able to make a comeback, and soon. We, as a country, will sorely regret it if we don't change the economic path we're currently taking.

Comments and thoughts, pro and con, are highly welcomed. Union-haters, please tell me, why the hate? Inquiring minds wanna know.

Society has been programmed since the 70’s to be anti-union. It really went into hyper-drive with the Reagan administration.
Funny how union membership went from 33% in the 50’s to @ 6% now and it’s the unions fault the economy is in a depression.

[subsound]

Why not? It's an easy way to make people fight against their own rights. Still reminds me of the same joke.

"A CEO, a Tea Party and a Union Worker sit down at a table. In the middle of the table is a plate with 12 chocolate chip cookies on it. The CEO grabs 11 cookies and turns to the Tea Party and says, "You'd better be careful," nodding to the Union Worker, "that guy's trying to take your cookie.""

[cowboyxjon]

Originally Posted by jtur88

The short answer is that Unions are no different than anything else. Their structure is subject to the abuse of power. The union pendulum has swung to the point at which that abuse of power was widely recognized, and the public has fallen out of love with them.



Why do you think your employer would pay you "according to your merit", when your employer can pay whatever he wants, unless there is a risk that he will lose his entire work force if he doesn't? You are apparently the only worker in the world who is not expendable, because everyone else knows he can be replaced if he demands "what he is worth".

I like the idea of having metrics and goals to achieve along with a yearly performance review. I've also been happy with my compensation, but if I reach a point where I think I'm worth more that what I'm being paid, I'll look for employment elsewhere. Receiving a 6% raise because I exceeded my goals set in my performance plan, for instance, is a lot more attractive to me than a blanket yearly 2% raise in the union environment I used to work in. I don't need a union to 'protect' me from my big bad employer.

But hey, different strokes for different folks. Been there, done that, worked for a city with a public employee union in California before I moved away to take another job. It was frustrating when I wouldn't be 'allowed' to attach a new piece of hardware to my computer because that was the helpdesk guy's job.. and I worked in IT myself! The union environment was terribly inefficient in this case and there was really no incentive for anyone to work harder or propose new/more efficient processes. It just wasn't for me -- it seemed more like the union existed to protect those who were lazy.

[cpg35223]

I'll give you an example in microcosm of why I despise unions.

I was at a trade show in Chicago. We had a 10 x 10 display, the kind that popped out of a box and took literally five minutes to set up and plug in the fluorescent lights. A ninety-pound weakling could have done it. Hell, my six-year-old son could have done it.

But we couldn't do that. Why? Because the union wouldn't allow it. So we had to cool our heels for FIVE HOURS waiting on the union guy to wander over to our booth and set it up. Hell, we even had to tell the nitwit how to do it. THEN we had to wait on the union electrician for another two hours to walk over and PLUG IN THE DAMNED LIGHTS. I mean, I'm talking about one cord going into one socket. Meanwhile, the three of us are trying our best to arrange prospect meetings, etc., all the things that you're there at a trade show to do in the first place.

Then, I needed to open a couple of boxes and pull out some brochures. Nope. When I started to open the carton, a union guy comes over and says, "Hey! That's a union job." So I had to wait for yet another entitled guy to come over, open the carton, and pull out the brochures.

So there you have it. Five minutes worth of work stretched out to eight freaking hours, which meant I didn't wrap up my day until eight o'clock that night. All because of the unions' really corrupt ways of doing biz. Then we had to do the whole thing in reverse when we were leaving the show. This time, it only took three hours to do five minutes' worth of work. Yeah, that was a big improvement. And every time I go to a trade show in some union-run venue, I have to go through this same misery, albeit in a less extreme manner. I defy anyone to defend this situation.

Yeah, I get why there were unions in the first place. They were needed to deal with unfair labor practices and to ensure competitive wages. But let's get real here. They're more of a cartel today, rather than an advocate for worker's rights. They transformed from people concerned with the welfare of the workers into nothing more than a bunch of despicable greedheads who actually get in the way of work getting done.

[slim04]

Originally Posted by NorthStarDelight

If there was a Big-Box Union that went on strike 5 weeks before Christmas, nationwide, you can bet your bottom dollar that the big-box marts would raise wages to what the union demanded. $20 an hour, $25 an hour, it doesn't matter, they'd have no choice to pay those wages, or it's bye-bye Big Box Mart...LOL.

If wages are 40% of your total expenses and you operate in an extremely competitive environment where your margins are thin, if you double the cost of wages, you will go bankrupt in a matter of months.

So if the employees did try to do that, a Big Box store would be either bring in scabs (its not like employees at Big Box stores are irreplaceable or highly skilled) or sign a contract that would force them to go out of business in months. It's not a hard decision.