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Federal taxes on an income of $32,000 in 1960 were 50%~~~ that's actually quite a little more than the tax rate on $500,000 today! Yep~ taxes are WAY up in the time since the 60's
There were way more deductions back then and Social Security withholding was much lower. You also conveniently left out state taxes. Let's see, back in 1960 Michigan did not have an income tax, only a 3% state sales tax, lower property tax rates.... Yeah that state income tax I pay now must really be imaginary. And the 6% state sales tax must really be less than 3%.
Look at how manufacturing is done. Not so many people standing on an assembly line beating things with hammers or turning things with wrenches. We have robots that do most of that now..
You, obviously, have never set foot in an auto assembly plant.
So instead, we make minimum payments on our debt and go out and buy this stuff instead of putting the money in the bank. And I understand that, you work 40-50 hours a week, you want a reward for that and savings or a zero credit card balance isn't reward for everyone.
I wonder if all this debt that people take on is a transfer of wealth from the poor and middle class to the rich in itself. Isn't it usually the case that people who borrow money tend to be poorer than people who loan money? It is one reason I try very hard to avoid debt. Why should I transfer my meager wealth to people who are richer than me? I prefer to save up, buy bonds, then cash them in to buy what I want for cash. I know that isn't always possible for young struggling families, but maybe people should cut back on borrowing and that will decrease some of the wealth gap.
On the other hand here is some potential good news:
For the first time in years, Apple will manufacture computers in the United States, the chief executive of Apple, Timothy D. Cook, said in interviews with NBC and Bloomberg Businessweek.
Compared to most developed nations, we pay very low taxes. Ironically, many of those higher taxed folks do bring home more bacon, and have weathered the storm quite well. Part of that involved investing that tax money wisely in education, infrastructure, and other 1st world nation necessities. We chose to cut funding, cut taxes, and engage in military quagmires. Not quite the shining beacon of opportunity these days for your average American.
We pay lower tax rates than many other countries, but we do not enjoy subsidized health-care, education or retirement. Many higher tax countries subsidize all of the above, making the populaces quality of life much higher. You won't see that here due to the excess of greed, especially among our fearless leaders.
Apprenticeship opportunities are still available today. The culture is completely different these days though. Kids were told you're a dolt unless they go the corporate drone route. What the trades are left with are all the left overs/troubled youth who largely cannot function in trade occupations. You actually have to have the capacity to learn and reason in many trades, just like any other profession. This might explain in part why manufacturing had fallen on hard times. The work that didn't go to China demanded more frontal lobe capacity, beyond swinging a hammer 10 hours a day. If American manufacturers can't do the challenging stuff because the kids can't learn math or follow directions, it will just go somewhere else. Nobody is going to pay good money for shotty quality or work that is just wrong.
This country really shot itself in the foot with the slashing of the education budget and the destruction of the core family unit. It's nice to have smart kids going to college and broadening their horizons. We also need smart people in other occupations as well. Bringing the K-12 system back up to snuff would solve this imbalance, but I doubt that will happen. We are too far gone I'm afraid...
That's corporate propaganda you picked up somewhere. First, it doesn't take too much of brain power to function in the modern manufacturing environment, everything is super specialized, dumbed down and routinized. Dumbing down + (super) specialization + routine = the essence of wage labor, especially in manufacturing. These founding principles of mass wage labor were introduced long time ago to unskill workers, make them easily replaceable and cheap (the fact that your skills are useless outside of the (specific) factory walls helps to bring wages down too).
Believe it or not, it takes RRR, common sense and JUST a FEW DAYS on job training to get started in "advanced" manufacturing. It does NOT take a Math Ph.D. (or even a HS drop out) to operate CNC, you need just BASIC and RUDIMENTARY math for that. There are plenty of people willing and able to cut their life span short and try manufacturing jobs. Yet, corporations don't want invest/risk a single dollar on training. They would rather have big bad government building all those community colleges, introducing all those silly degrees and licenses so drones in HR departments could use "sophisticated" software to sift through mountains of applications. That way everybody's arse is covered. The fact that one has to spend thousands of dollars to acquire those CC degrees and licenses doesn't bother them. They pick 20 out of the piles of 400 "graduates" and the rest is your loss and not theirs. Even if you get that famous "advanced" manufacturing job (after spending thousands on getting qualified) they are "willing" to pay you $10 to start with, and if (it's a big IF) you last they may crack it up to $15-19/hr. Here is the most pleasant part of a deal, you pay for corporate training out of your $10/hr. Corporations successfully shifted burden of their training on the shoulders of big bad government and YOU. Famous efficiency of the "free" markets in action.
It's a sad fact, machinists (and to lesser extent manufacturing workers) do get sick a lot and die relatively young, after spending all their Earthly riches on doctors and hospitals. Is 19/hr enough for you to cut your life span let's say to 60 y.o. and to experience all that agony of cancers has to offer? Sorry, Wal-Mart pays $10/hr to stock shelves at night, bosses may shovel their manufacturing deep down their arses.
Last edited by RememberMee; 12-08-2012 at 09:53 AM..
We pay lower tax rates than many other countries, but we do not enjoy subsidized health-care, education or retirement. Many higher tax countries subsidize all of the above, making the populaces quality of life much higher. You won't see that here due to the excess of greed, especially among our fearless leaders.
Not true, I pay roughly 43% of my income in all kinds of taxes and fees and I have NOTHING that Europeans have. No affordable education for my son, no affordable universal health care, no decent safety net, and so on, I have plenty of survival anxiety and fear for my 43% in taxes. The only thing I have is "public" education staffed with Ritalin happy zombies that kill minds and soul of kids. Where does my money go, really?
The reason we don't have middle class growth is a lesson of demographics. Educational attainment has stagnated, job growth has stagnated, cost of living, taxes, and expenses have increased, and mediocrity + statism is the end result.
Not true, I pay roughly 43% of my income in all kinds of taxes and fees and I have NOTHING that Europeans have. No affordable education for my son, no affordable universal health care, no decent safety net, and so on, I have plenty of survival anxiety and fear for my 43% in taxes. The only thing I have is "public" education staffed with Ritalin happy zombies that kill minds and soul of kids. Where does my money go, really?
You do have something the Europeans lack, although it's necessity is up for debate... A massive, oversized military industrial complex. That would explain the lack of real infrastructure. For those who want to bring politics into it, I'm no fan of liberal ideology. I also realize our "conservative" representatives are no better when it comes to managing our country's budget, with regards to our massive military spending. I would rather see more money spent on education, infrastructure, and other programs designed to build things, not destroy them.
That's corporate propaganda you picked up somewhere. First, it doesn't take too much of brain power to function in the modern manufacturing environment, everything is super specialized, dumbed down and routinized. Dumbing down + (super) specialization + routine = the essence of wage labor, especially in manufacturing. These founding principles of mass wage labor were introduced long time ago to unskill workers, make them easily replaceable and cheap (the fact that your skills are useless outside of the (specific) factory walls helps to bring wages down too).
Believe it or not, it takes RRR, common sense and JUST a FEW DAYS on job training to get started in "advanced" manufacturing. It does NOT take a Math Ph.D. (or even a HS drop out) to operate CNC, you need just BASIC and RUDIMENTARY math for that. There are plenty of people willing and able to cut their life span short and try manufacturing jobs. Yet, corporations don't want invest/risk a single dollar on training. They would rather have big bad government building all those community colleges, introducing all those silly degrees and licenses so drones in HR departments could use "sophisticated" software to sift through mountains of applications. That way everybody's arse is covered. The fact that one has to spend thousands of dollars to acquire those CC degrees and licenses doesn't bother them. They pick 20 out of the piles of 400 "graduates" and the rest is your loss and not theirs. Even if you get that famous "advanced" manufacturing job (after spending thousands on getting qualified) they are "willing" to pay you $10 to start with, and if (it's a big IF) you last they may crack it up to $15-19/hr. Here is the most pleasant part of a deal, you pay for corporate training out of your $10/hr. Corporations successfully shifted burden of their training on the shoulders of big bad government and YOU. Famous efficiency of the "free" markets in action.
It's a sad fact, machinists (and to lesser extent manufacturing workers) do get sick a lot and die relatively young, after spending all their Earthly riches on doctors and hospitals. Is 19/hr enough for you to cut your life span let's say to 60 y.o. and to experience all that agony of cancers has to offer? Sorry, Wal-Mart pays $10/hr to stock shelves at night, bosses may shovel their manufacturing deep down their arses.
Your speaking for your average entry level manufacturing job. It certainly doesn't require much. Neither do many other entry level jobs in other professions. When you looking deeper into the occupation is when you find the higher skill, higher paying and more knowledge intensive work. Yes, it's very easy to sit in front of a pre programmed machine and check parts. A few steps above is the guy who sets the machine up. Above that, you need a guy to program the machine. You also need people with the knowledge to build and design the machines, people to make tools, people to move equipment, and so on. There have always been specialties in manufacturing. There have always been mold makers, die makers, tool makers, grinders, buffers, fixture makers... Very rare to find a true jack of all trades in manufacturing. Even when you look at engineering, you'll find companies demanding engineers with a concentration on random things like seat belt design. To an extent, things have always been specialized, but much more so these days than ever.
Regarding pay, $19/hr won't buy you a reasonably skilled and experienced machinist round these parts. No way, no how. Maybe a guy who can set some machines up, so long as someone is there to hold his hand along the way. Manufacturing wages are decent in the cities because that's where the work is. Supply and demand. Companies get work done in the cities because they can't wait. That's the cost of doing business. Out in the sticks, or even in less densely populated suburbs, wages tend to be quite a bit more depressed.
While I do believe corporations have very successfully shifted the burden of training onto workers, much of that has to do with the reduced demand for labor, and limited opportunities available. People are left to claw their way into anything that pays a livable wage. Naturally, nothing is free, including a chance at success. It also has to do with the culture. People want those office jobs. They view those jobs as the marker of success. If that's what they all want, than naturally, they most do something above and beyond the capacity of the general public to acquire those jobs. In this day and age, that means loading up on debt and getting a degree. There are still apprenticeship opportunities in other occupations where a business owner will pay you a wage to learn. They still come up short with regards to takers...
We pay lower tax rates than many other countries, but we do not enjoy subsidized health-care, education or retirement.
Social Security, Medicare, and public education sure are subsidized in the US. These are all taxpayer-funded entities.
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