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Old 02-15-2013, 10:36 PM
 
17,750 posts, read 15,047,446 times
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I just need a few questions answered.


1) When was the population too high? Give me a date. Was it before or after the industrial revolution?

2) During biblical times there was poverty. Was the cause overpopulation as well? And when did poverty make the transition from not being caused by population to when it was caused by over population. Describe the process.

3) Why did the American Indians lose to over populated Europeans ? Was it by sheer number given the per capita higher poverty rate of Europeans implicit in over population and not technology?

4) Why is one of the most populated countries like China growing rapidly in wealth? Are the poor in China getting poorer or are dirt farmers there now relatively poor, given that nearly all of them were dirt farmers?


Yeah don't get me wrong. I don't see octo mom as a good thing, and 2-3 children per family should be the goal, but there is no immediate crisis at all with population. Waste, land use and a capitalist model that requires endless cheap labor is probably the best place to look for both cause and effect.
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Old 02-16-2013, 04:20 AM
 
621 posts, read 547,859 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRational View Post
The idea of "overpopulation" is the short hand term. Not the end of the discussion.

Though resources are absolutely a part of it... the far larger issue is that the lack of meaningful
work (challenging AND rewarding) for the (30-40%?) portion of the population at the lower end...
puts too large a social support burden on the rest of us to do so much for so many.
I see. You want to reduce the population at the bottom end. Hitler had some ideas like you are having. Up the minimum wage. That will eliminate doing a lot of those things that you don't think are challenging and rewarding. Then get full employment, that will put everyone to work at challenging and rewarding stuff. Doing that will put the burden of the bottom on the bottom.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRational View Post

That's what it looks like. But it's so ONLY because at the same time that these low/no skill jobs were being provided to "3rd world nations" for good and valid reasons by the way... we continued to produce new waves of our own low/no skilled people for whom there were no jobs anymore.
I really find your thinking objectionable. Deeply so.




“low/no skilled people”


The mandatory public education system is designed to pump out just this kind of person.


Those people can be taught skills.
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Old 02-16-2013, 04:27 AM
 
Location: Someplace Wonderful
5,170 posts, read 3,732,199 times
Reputation: 2546
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tekkie View Post
Wouldn't having more people create more demand for goods and services? Thus creating the need to create more jobs? Or have we reached a point that automation has eliminated the need for this many jobs? What's equilibrium?
Yes.

In fact our whole economy at this point in time is built around consumer demand. Fewer consumers by definition means lower demand.
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Old 02-16-2013, 04:31 AM
 
Location: Someplace Wonderful
5,170 posts, read 3,732,199 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mysticaltyger View Post
This is the biggest thing people ignore. Social Security systems throughout the developed world are based on the idea that the generations behind the current old generation are larger. When that stops happening, you end up with huge budget deficits, etc. as have been happening in Japan for 20 years now, and are now happening in Europe and the U.S.

Honestly, I wonder if these "growth is bad" folks are willing to give up their Social Security, Medicare and other benefits as the cost of zero or declining population. Somehow I doubt it
Good post. Cant give you more reputation at this time, but you are spot on!
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Old 02-16-2013, 04:41 AM
 
Location: Someplace Wonderful
5,170 posts, read 3,732,199 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimhcom View Post
This has got to be one of the outright stupidest statements I have ever read.
The world is grossly overpopulated and that overpopulation is the sole reason the majority of the world lives in desperate poverty.
Overpopulation is of benefit to the elite and the wealthy of the world who profit from the low wages and high demand overpopulation fosters.
I have traveled to many countries, and from what I have seen firsthand, the effects of overpopulation in most of these countries have been devastating.
It is the ignorant and deceitful who deny the realities of overpopulation, which hate humanity.
They are also very often the same people who have a vested interest in maintaining the misery of others for their own benefit.
Well..... I disagree with you and agree with jimhcom on this one. The real issue is whether there is food available to feed growing populations, and last time I checked that was an amazing surplus of food/calories/ however you want to measure it.

The problem has always been how to get the food from where it originates to where it is needed. Very often that is a political problem, not and economic problem.
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Old 02-16-2013, 04:43 AM
 
Location: Someplace Wonderful
5,170 posts, read 3,732,199 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSOs View Post
Bingo! It’s really that simple!

Using people to churn/feed the Economy has run its course; & has become borderline barbaric IMHO.
I tend to agree.

Problem is, most of us tend to fight the previous war.
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Old 02-16-2013, 04:52 AM
 
Location: Someplace Wonderful
5,170 posts, read 3,732,199 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mistermobile View Post
When I first got into immigration, I researched population numbers through history. I seem to remember that it is a problem for nations, at least in the pre-techological age. I remember that population numbers were previously "controlled" by disease and war.

Today, most countries are not so welcoming as the USA and these nations both control immigration (but allow temporary foreign workers) and put social programs in place to boost birth rates among all of their citizens.

Yes, there is a lot of empty land in the US that is arable and has water resources (climate change?). But we live in cities not the country.

There still exists the myth of upward mobility in the US, but not for most people. Its just an election "saw." Trying to think ahead, lots of Americans are going to be on a government dole with politics controlled more and more by seniors (who live a lot longer) who are happy with things the way they are.
An interesting listen is interviews with Jonathan Last, the author of What To Expect When No one is Expecting He gets into the demographic thing.

Jonathan Last interviewed by Ron Owens: Here

Armstrong & Getty interview Jonathan Last HERE

Very much in depth and to the point.
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Old 02-16-2013, 07:10 AM
 
Location: San Diego California
6,797 posts, read 6,126,009 times
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This discussion has basically broken down into 2 groups; one group is stating the facts about cause and effect, and what is really happening to real people on a daily basis.
The other group is on some hypothetical rant about what if's, and postulating about theories.
The facts of the matter are obvious for anyone whose name is not Sheldon, and who has ever actually travelled to the places in the world that have been decimated by overpopulation.
Some of us have seen the plywood shacks so densely packed together they encroach on the roads where cars and trucks whizz by inches from where children sleep, or people who live on railroad tracks or on floating garbage heaps in polluted rivers because there is literally no place else to live. That is real, that is what results from overpopulation. It is not an economic theory it is something that causes hundreds of billions of people to live in squalor, hunger, and disease, without hope, simply trying to survive another day.
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Old 02-16-2013, 08:12 AM
 
Location: The Triad (NC)
26,904 posts, read 58,020,547 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pie_row View Post
deleted
If something I've said isn't clear or you want to critique a point... fine.
Quote me and ask or quote me and comment with your own view.

I'd appreciate you not attempting to interpret my meaning or "translating" my words.
Thanks.

Quote:
Those people can be taught skills.
Yeah? How has that worked out so far?

Meanwhile... I'll keep holding up the mirror.
You can decide what you see in it.
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Old 02-16-2013, 08:22 AM
 
Location: The Triad (NC)
26,904 posts, read 58,020,547 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwynedd1 View Post
I just need a few questions answered.
1) When was the population too high? Give me a date.
First.. define "too high"

Yeah don't get me wrong. I don't see octo mom as a good thing, and 2-3 children per family
should be the goal, but there is no immediate crisis at all...
Do we have to wait until there is an immediate crisis to discuss the problem?

Do we have to wait until there is an immediate crisis to consider the cause?
Do we have to wait until there is an immediate crisis to consider the effect?
Do we have to wait until there is an immediate crisis to consider alternatives?

Tell us.. how foul must the water be before you say it's time to do something?
Can you say Cuyahoga?
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