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Old 02-16-2013, 10:54 AM
 
17,752 posts, read 15,056,305 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRational View Post
Who are you talking to?


About That Overpopulation Thing
One more time:
There IS a saturation point in everything and there IS a point of diminishing returns.
I contend that we have already passed both w/r/t population and successful viability.

So now you want to pretend the argument was otherwise? And now of course I expect to see you alter the very abstractions that I insisted be defined. So failing to do so you can pretend that the argument wasn't about poverty by torturing the meaning of the term of what it means to prosper.

If quality of life diminishes with population, then the argument is that population causes poverty. That is your argument quite clearly here.
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Old 02-16-2013, 10:54 AM
 
621 posts, read 548,282 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRational View Post
Don't tell... ask.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRational View Post
One more time:
There IS a saturation point in everything and there IS a point of diminishing returns.
I contend that we have already passed both w/r/t population and successful viability.

Others seem to think we must wait until we reach a "breaking point" before doing something.
I contend that is being absurdly and irresponsibly stupid.
China has 3X the number of people that we do in approximately the same amount of area that we do.


Their economy is booming where ours is stagnant and declining. It isn't absolute numbers it is the ratio of demand for labor and supply of workers.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRational View Post
Meh. It requires balancing (approximately) the production and consumption needs...
with the capacity to produce. It won't happen by waving a magic wand... but is doable.
This is exactly what I've been talking about for a very long time. The easiest fastest and least invasive way to balance production and demand, with the capacity to produce, is to increase the demand for stuff with effective economic stimulus, and to restructure our debts with wage inflation.
Quote:
Don't tell... ask.
I think not.


My opinion and you are just as entitled to yours is that increasing demand for labor is the better route.
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Old 02-16-2013, 10:57 AM
 
621 posts, read 548,282 times
Reputation: 265
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwynedd1 View Post
If quality of life diminishes with population, then the argument is that population causes poverty. That is your argument quite clearly here.
I will concede that I have reached the point of diminishing returns in this discussion and retire to other things.
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Old 02-16-2013, 11:39 AM
 
Location: Someplace Wonderful
5,170 posts, read 3,734,548 times
Reputation: 2546
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimhcom View Post
In case you have lost track the subject of this discussion is if the world is overpopulated, and the answer is yes.
I'm pretty sure I started this thread to talk about declining birthrates worldwide, and the long term implications if the world population did indeed decline precipitously over the next 50-100 years. I have provided links to Jonathan Last's book, and two interviews he has done.

I get that some believe we are overpopulated. After all, this has been the common wisdom since Malthus, and more recently Erlich. But recent demographic research is showing that the common wisdom is wrong.
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Old 02-16-2013, 11:46 AM
 
17,752 posts, read 15,056,305 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimhcom View Post
In case you have lost track the subject of this discussion is if the world is overpopulated, and the answer is yes.
So now a Socratic dialog without any context or evidence will prove your point?



Quote:
Is every place in the world overpopulated? No
Is everything that is dirty need to be wiped everywhere? Define dirty.


Quote:
Is much of the world overpopulated? Yes
Huh what? Based on what? What tangible definition do you have because it can't be infant mortality or life expectancy. You seem totally ignorant of what an abstraction is and you think you are being erudite and insightful? Are you religious? Are you holy? Who is holy? If I face East several times a day am I holier than you?


Quote:
As a whole, does the level of population add to suffering? Yes.
Based on what ?


Quote:
If there was a fair distribution of wealth thruougt the world would it aleviate suffering ? Yes
Is that ever going to happen? NO
Would lowering the population in areas that are overpopulated increase the overall standard of living? Yes

Conflating shift in population with population size.
That has nothing to do with resources. Lowering population creates scarcity in labor and raises the surplus that labor can retain in their output.


The Economic Impact of the Black Death | Economic History Services
As the Black Death swung the balance in the peasant's favor, the literate elite bemoaned a disintegrating social and economic order. William of Dene, John Langland, John Gower, and others polemically evoked nostalgia for the peasant who knew his place, worked hard, demanded little, and squelched pride while they condemned their present in which land lay unplowed and only an immediate pang of hunger goaded a lazy, disrespectful, grasping peasant to do a moment's desultory work (Hatcher, 1994).
and hence we have the paradox that it is the elite with the current economic model that have all the conflicting incentives. We see this by the huge demand from cheap Mexican labor. They are besides themselves wanting their hunting grounds while having to contend with preserving them only to lose their ability to negotiate the lower classes to subsistence.



Quote:
If you ever decide to get off your pretentious ass and to see for yourself the situation in living areas of overpopulation in countries where people not only do not have enough to eat, they do not even have a few square feet of land to erect a hovel, then I will have some respect for your opinion. As it is, you are talking out your ass about something you have no practical knowledge of whatsoever.
What and be like you with logically inconsistent arguments, and poorly educated in the subject matter so that I must turn to personal attacks? I asked you to define demand. You acted as though it were simple and insulted me. Now you want to reason it out after you have been exposed to be ignorant and pretentious ? Tell me if people cannot cross the flooded river to pick the fruit tree is that a lack of demand? If the government taxes people who can no longer afford the fruit, is that a lack of demand? If fruit is illegal is it a supply and demand issue only? If I am mugged on my way to the coffee house did my demand for coffee rise or fall? You have a grade school model of everything as if it can be reduced to such simple answers. We should all be like you? I would rather die on the spot.

Quote:
The world as it is today has finite resources, that is a fact.
The sky is blue is also a fact..

Quote:
The majority of those resources are hoovered up by the wealthiest people, that is a fact. What is left over does not meet the needs of the majority of the population which lives in poverty. That is a fact.
You can postulate about if things were different, but that is an exercise in futility because it is not different, it is the way it is.
No its not just the way it is. The wealthy are complicit in the entire process. And surely you have heard of the Praetorian Guard in Rome? Do you thinks it an over population argument?

...that there is no superiority of natural strength, artificial weapons, or acquired skill, which could enable one man to keep in constant subjection one hundred of his fellow creatures: the tyrant of a single town, or a small district, would soon discover that an hundred armed followers were a weak defence against ten thousand peasants or citizens; but an hundred thousand well disciplined soldiers will command, with despotic sway, ten millions of subjects; and a body of ten or fifteen thousand guards will strike terror into the most numerous populace that ever crowded the streets of an immense capital. -Gibbon
A certain population size is about the nature of a concentrated social force well before resources come into play. Are you going to argue the classical period was over populated and that Rome was far better off? The same effect you speak of has been around for thousands of years. But what resources do you have to fall back on? You hardly know anything of use other than the "sky is blue factoids" . In the long run we are dead so why bother doing anything? Time will run out. I will not live forever...

Quote:
The current world population is 7 billion people. By 2045 there will be 9 billion. That increase alone, 3billion people is equivalent to the entire world population in 1960.
There is no logical consistency with the elite and their usurpation which happens well before.

Quote:
Water, food, medical care, and infrastructure are all already strained to the point of causing significant cost escalations putting these resources further out of reach of poor people worldwide.
Employment worldwide is decreasing and poverty is rising. These are all facts. If you cannot see the correlation between population and poverty then you are blind.

I can see "correlations" especially in the opposite direction of your argument like the Korean peninsula. Is North Korea "over populated"? Why is heavily populated South Korea going gangbusters? I know all about correlations since I calculated Pearson r correlation coefficients in my studies frequently. The problem is research methods were part of my college education and I very well know correlation are deceiving.

With debt based financing, credit supply shock and unemployment and mothballing of industry, and rent seeking, yeah nothing material is done. 2% of the population provides our food supply. And out largest irrigated crop is lawn turf.


Lawn turf is America's biggest crop--and a mixed bag for the environment - US News and World Report
All told, according to a report to be published later this year in the journal Environmental Management, some 40 million acres of America are covered in lawns, making turf grass our largest irrigated crop.
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Old 02-16-2013, 11:49 AM
 
17,752 posts, read 15,056,305 times
Reputation: 6377
Quote:
Originally Posted by pie_row View Post
I will concede that I have reached the point of diminishing returns in this discussion and retire to other things.
I'll be leaving with ya. What more is there to say? How can one argue against that one day the Earth will be swallowed by the Sun? Why eat a sandwich for one day it will be your last sandwich...
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Old 02-16-2013, 03:41 PM
 
1,395 posts, read 1,079,157 times
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Overpopulation is only an issue in socialist societies.
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Old 02-16-2013, 03:42 PM
 
Location: southern california
55,237 posts, read 72,517,680 times
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interesting post.
natural population reduction.
i dont think so.
traditionally that was the job of plagues and wars.
the sheep dont lay down and die quietly.
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Old 02-16-2013, 06:41 PM
 
11,917 posts, read 14,405,512 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tijlover View Post
With the Black Plague that swept Europe, centuries ago, wiping out 1/3rd of the population, for one generation there were no lower classes. Employers, like today, couldn't intimidate their employees by saying: Don't like your job, there's a hundred applicants waiting to take your job!

This will hopefully be one plus to the lower feritility rates, fairer treatment of workers!

Another plus: returning a number of our suburbs back to farm land!

But I'm sure some countries will cash in on the growing scarcity of workers and become baby-making countries, and steer their children to worker-starved countries, and benefit from the remittances their children will send home!

Who knows!!! That welfare mother with 12 children may be able to afford a house in Beverly Hills some day!

Eat your heart out, you declining middle class folks with one or two children!
That is the Pollyanna view. But we also need people to consume the production. While welfare mothers don't contribute much to economic growth, middle class families do. Some believe the 50s were the halcyon days of America, with "full employment," or close to it. Don't forget that was also a time of high birth rates. And don't forget adoption. Perhaps Russia cutting off American parents' adoption may be just the beginning.
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Old 02-19-2013, 11:10 AM
 
Location: San Antonio Texas
11,435 posts, read 15,972,100 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainNJ View Post
there is plenty of room in south and west new jersey. i believe nj is the most densely populated states, so there is tons of space in other states all over america.
There might be space, but that doesn't mean that they have the water sources to supply for those people. Texas is facing a very significant water shortage, so severe in fact that it's first on the agenda of the worthless Legislative session.
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