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Old 02-13-2013, 06:25 PM
 
Location: Someplace Wonderful
5,170 posts, read 3,750,562 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pie_row View Post
Demographics Too small of a working population base trying to carry to large of a non-productive population. What is needed is easy to see. Every able bodied person working at a high rate of pay. Are we going to do what it takes to see that this happens?
The free market capitalism folks with whom I personally have interacted seem to be talking the happy talk with regards to this.

I suppose we all look to the past to explain the present and predict the future. Problem is, the future changes based upon present trends.

The first futurist I ever heard of was Toffler, whose Future Shock was a revelation to all of us.

I too wonder about the future. Your point is well taken.
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Old 02-13-2013, 07:49 PM
 
17,752 posts, read 15,120,476 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pie_row View Post
Do you know how hard the Fed is trying to get inflation? The Fed doesn't have a lever to move the economy with. Not one that works very well. The minimum wage law will get you wage price inflation. That lever will move the economy.
yep
More or less the point is real debt increased after the housing crash. When the debtors could not pay the increased real debts the creditors were directly funded. Wage inflation would effectively be de facto debt relief. The Fed cannot cause inflation unless assets have lots of equity. What more proof is needed?
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Old 02-13-2013, 07:56 PM
 
17,752 posts, read 15,120,476 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pie_row View Post
Demographics Too small of a working population base trying to carry to large of a non-productive population. What is needed is easy to see. Every able bodied person working at a high rate of pay. Are we going to do what it takes to see that this happens?

When economic and monopoly rents appear, money creation becomes increasingly dissociated from actual industry. In a pioneer state, all money passes hands through industry. Once the good spots are taken, money changes hands via access charges. Rather than light a fire under rentiers, it looks like the solution is the welfare state which essentially leaves large swaths of the population who do nothing in both the upper and lower classes. What a mess.
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Old 02-13-2013, 08:32 PM
 
Location: San Diego California
6,797 posts, read 6,149,076 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pie_row View Post

Hmm. The Roman definition of barbarian was people lacking sewage systems. Adequate drainage with flowing water means the sh-it goes away.


Running water and flush toilets is all it takes. The Romans had them. It isn't population density it is the ratio of people to clean water.


Civilization = sewage system installation. The act of becoming civilized is installing a sewage system.
So by your line of reasoning there was no civilization from the fall of the Roman Empire until the 19th century.
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Old 02-14-2013, 10:04 AM
 
621 posts, read 550,560 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimhcom View Post
So by your line of reasoning there was no civilization from the fall of the Roman Empire until the 19th century.
Admiral Perry sailed into Tokyo bay. Both sides looked at the other as barbarians. The Japanese were correct. The Japanese are the only people never to have been colonized. They were civilized. They had adequate human wast disposal.


Quote:
Originally Posted by gwynedd1 View Post
When... it looks like the solution is the welfare state which essentially leaves large swaths of the population who do nothing in both the upper and lower classes. What a mess.
What a mess is correct. In a personal economy the limit on spending is a hard one. It is the cash you have plus the available credit. Once that is reached you can't spend no more. Greece is hitting that limit and doing it hard. Normally we don't think of sovereign entities as hitting a hard spending limit. Greece is and it is the death kneel of the welfare state. With the ability to print your own money the spending limit is soft. It is inflation. We differ in opinion on weather you can go from deflation to hyper inflation without first going through true inflation. My opinion is that you can. I respect that you don't see it this way.


I don't see the welfare state working long term. Hyper stagflation will stop it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by gwynedd1 View Post
More or less the point is real debt increased after the housing crash. When the debtors could not pay the increased real debts the creditors were directly funded. Wage inflation would effectively be de facto debt relief. The Fed cannot cause inflation unless assets have lots of equity. What more proof is needed?



Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckmann View Post
Your point is well taken.
Thank you. I'll get back to you when I've read the book you referenced.
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Old 02-14-2013, 11:52 AM
 
Location: San Diego California
6,797 posts, read 6,149,076 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pie_row View Post
Admiral Perry sailed into Tokyo bay. Both sides looked at the other as barbarians. The Japanese were correct. The Japanese are the only people never to have been colonized. They were civilized. They had adequate human wast disposal.


.
It never ceases to amaze me the distances people will go to deny their being fallacious.
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Old 02-14-2013, 12:13 PM
 
17,752 posts, read 15,120,476 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimhcom View Post
It never ceases to amaze me the distances people will go to deny their being fallacious.

He is the one being logical since he has some sort of tangible definition of what makes a barbarian and what makes a civilization. This is the same sort of thing which I had asked to be defined so that one could actually measure too much population. Wild big cat lovers can make this argument within their value system.
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Old 02-14-2013, 01:37 PM
 
Location: San Diego California
6,797 posts, read 6,149,076 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwynedd1 View Post
He is the one being logical since he has some sort of tangible definition of what makes a barbarian and what makes a civilization. This is the same sort of thing which I had asked to be defined so that one could actually measure too much population. Wild big cat lovers can make this argument within their value system.
You think basing the definition of civilization on the single factor of sewers is logical?
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Old 02-14-2013, 02:25 PM
 
17,752 posts, read 15,120,476 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimhcom View Post
You think basing the definition of civilization on the single factor of sewers is logical?

Beats "we are over populated because there are poor people." Concentration camps are a leading cause of poverty because the resources are withheld.

I think you are losing the interpretation since I believe he gave you a sample of an empirical basis for a claim. He was not staking his entire claim on it.
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Old 02-14-2013, 04:35 PM
 
Location: San Diego California
6,797 posts, read 6,149,076 times
Reputation: 5171
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwynedd1 View Post
Beats "we are over populated because there are poor people." Concentration camps are a leading cause of poverty because the resources are withheld.

I think you are losing the interpretation since I believe he gave you a sample of an empirical basis for a claim. He was not staking his entire claim on it.
Really? Is it really that hard for you to wrap your brain around the concept that supply and demand dictate living standards along with everything else? That when you have an oversupply of labor it effects the supply of jobs? That when you have more people to feed than farmland to grow crops that the result is going to be higher costs and imported food? That when you run out of land that people will crowd together in unsanitary conditions? That overpopulation overtaxes all public services?

No, you guys are right, I see it now, just build some sewers and the whole world will be just fine!
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