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You shouldn't assume that everybody gets their information from pop media news sites/networks just because you do.
Furthermore, I didn't "diss" manual labor. I "dissed" the idea that many Americans, especially white males, have that they should be able to get decent paying jobs even when they lack marketable skills and don't make any attempt to improve those marketable skills. That you're offended by that notion says you're among those who think that.
Are you drunk? Only Asians (both male and female) have more education than white males.
What proof do you have that "we" anticipated the consequences of automation and globalization?
Most of those business changes were made specifically to reduce if not eliminate labor.
If you were around then you would have seen it the newspaper every day...
along with the related calls for "retraining" programs. Try looking it up.
Here's one source: www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/1987/11/art3full.pdf
But even without the coming low/no skilled labor problem ZPG goes back to the early 70's.
It wasn't embraced widely on the surface... but most educated people got the point and acted.
They had fewer kids and made a point of educating/preparing the ones they did have.
The single biggest hindrance to the low/no skilled getting paid decently in one of the few jobs
they're qualified for (eg: paid at same wage/benefit level that their low/no skilled grandfathers
were once was able to earn and held things together on) is the direct competition they have from
their own siblings and cousins and often spouses too.
Even if 30 million weren't functionally illiterate the jobs still aren't there.
Getting back to the thread topic (decline of the middle class)...
until this lowest group can improve the market value of their labor (supply:demand)
the next higher group will have the market value of their labor depreciated.
And so on.
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assuming that this ephemeral "we" knew these consequences would occur,
how would "we" be able to forbid and discourage "the least prepared" from reproducing?
That wasn't the proposition... was it? (do try to avoid the strawman, OK?).
But since you're asking so nicely... that "we" is not monolithic.
Some parts of that "we" wanted to reduce the population of the poor while others didn't see their
ever growing number as a problem... they even worked to increase the number in several ways.
Here's the question to explore: Cui bono... "to whose benefit?
Last edited by MrRational; 11-01-2013 at 11:51 AM..
You shouldn't assume that everybody gets their information from pop media news sites/networks just because you do.
Furthermore, I didn't "diss" manual labor. I "dissed" the idea that many Americans, especially white males, have that they should be able to get decent paying jobs even when they lack marketable skills and don't make any attempt to improve those marketable skills. That you're offended by that notion says you're among those who think that.
im curious why you said "especially white males"? is that based on anything other than your own personal dislike for that group of people?
I'm not talking about the guys who "get it". I'm talking about the guys who don't. The guys I'm talking about have HS degrees, and maybe not even that, and steadfastly maintain it's their right to have good paying jobs despite being semi-literate and having no real job skills. Going to the local CC to learn welding or auto tech? Can't afford it with the truck payments. Apprenticeship program to learn HVAC? Doesn't pay enough for all the effort.
It's not like employers just started requiring jobs skills in 2008.
I'm not talking about the guys who "get it". I'm talking about the guys who don't. The guys I'm talking about have HS degrees, and maybe not even that, and steadfastly maintain it's their right to have good paying jobs despite being semi-literate and having no real job skills. Going to the local CC to learn welding or auto tech? Can't afford it with the truck payments. Apprenticeship program to learn HVAC? Doesn't pay enough for all the effort.
It's not like employers just started requiring jobs skills in 2008.
so why isolate the white males? are they any more guilty of this than any other group?
I'm not talking about the guys who "get it". I'm talking about the guys who don't. The guys I'm talking about have HS degrees, and maybe not even that, and steadfastly maintain it's their right to have good paying jobs despite being semi-literate and having no real job skills. Going to the local CC to learn welding or auto tech? Can't afford it with the truck payments. Apprenticeship program to learn HVAC? Doesn't pay enough for all the effort.
It's not like employers just started requiring jobs skills in 2008.
Okay, but you singled out white males. You said:
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especially white males...
Maybe you should have singled out Hispanics, they have the lowest educational achievements and have shown the least improvement since 1980.
I'm not talking about the guys who "get it". I'm talking about the guys who don't. The guys I'm talking about have HS degrees, and maybe not even that, and steadfastly maintain it's their right to have good paying jobs despite being semi-literate and having no real job skills. Going to the local CC to learn welding or auto tech? Can't afford it with the truck payments. Apprenticeship program to learn HVAC? Doesn't pay enough for all the effort.
It's not like employers just started requiring jobs skills in 2008.
Are there in fact enough jobs that the half of the workforce that makes under 25,000 a year will all be able to get good jobs having gone through the effort of becoming educated?
If so, does that mean all the menial jobs will become automated?
I'm afraid I don't buy it - new post recession jobs are on the whole inferior to the pre-recession jobs, automation is taking away not just low skill but also high skill jobs, etc, etc...
Paradigm shift! People need to realize our system and expectations are outmoded... perhaps it's time to think about the possibility that maybe people don't need to work 40+ hours a week and take a mere 2 weeks of vacation every year... Because, quite frankly, the jobs just aren't there, and they won't be there.
Are there in fact enough jobs that the half of the workforce that makes under $25,000
will all be able to get good jobs...?
Nope. There haven't been enough jobs for decades; let alone the good well paying sort.
We have more people available than we have jobs that actually need doing.
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(what about) having gone through the effort of becoming educated?
Nope. Won't make much difference. The next couple of job levels don't really have any slack either .
And adding numbers there (millions!) just squeezes the balloon into the higher wage rate end.
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If so, does that mean all the menial jobs will become automated?
Nope. Rather few of the remaining jobs can be automated.
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I'm afraid I don't buy it -
new post recession jobs are on the whole inferior to the pre-recession jobs,
automation is taking away not just low skill but also high skill jobs, etc, etc...
Oh well. The fact remains that we have more people available than jobs that actually need doing.
This is true at all levels of employment but is most acute at the bottom.
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Paradigm shift! People need to realize our system and expectations are outmoded...
perhaps it's time to think about the possibility that maybe people don't need to work 40+ hours
a week and take a mere 2 weeks of vacation every year...
Well, that's one approach I suppose.
My concern is that it ignores the underlying issue of having too many people.
In many ways it would encourage even greater population expansion.
Jobs/employment/wages aside... that isn't good for anyone.
I think the population issue is unrelated. Most 1st world countries have more generous social services than we do, and the populace works fewer hours than we do - however, their birth rates are much lower than ours.
The issue has to do with proper education and outreach regarding family planning, and also making contraceptives easily available.
I think the population issue is unrelated.
...however, their birth rates are much lower than ours.
Make up your mind... it's one or the other.
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The issue has to do with proper education and outreach...
Not that those don't have merit and value...
but if successful such will still take 30 years to germinate.
We have an immediate term glut issue to deal with:
We have more people available than we have jobs that actually need doing.
We're not going to start producing Soylent Green or do anything similarly draconian...
but we have to fine *some* way to address the actual problem.
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