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LOL!!! There is no shortage of STEM workers. And for the most part, there is not a shortage of skilled Americans for other jobs as well. What there is a shortage of are Americans willing to satisfy these functions for peanuts. That's what companies are whining about. They don't want to be forced to pay living wages for jobs that deserve them. In most cases, these are jobs that always paid a livable wage. There are plenty of manufacturers whining about skill shortages. In most cases, they don't want to pay enough to encourage Americans to pursue these occupations.
I have worked in manufacturing most of my life. I have never had a problem finding a job. Where I have had issues was finding a job worth getting out of bed for. Things are better now, but 5 years ago, every manufacturer felt entitled to a skilled worker with thousands of dollars worth of tools, willing to work for the grand wage of 12 bucks an hour. Gee... And they wonder why the young folks aren't investing years learning how to do these jobs?
It's all relevant to the discussion of economics. Labor is a resource. It goes where it is needed. How does labor know where it's needed? By the wages offered for the jobs. When the supply is overwhelmed by the demand, the wages tend to go up due to supply and demand. Somehow, many employers feel as though they are above the basic principles of economics.
Employers aren't and can't be above the basic principles of economics. If supply of labor exceeds demand, of course wages are kept low. That's not what employers can control. It's what labor resources turn out to be. The way to raise wages for the same kind of work is to creat labor shortages. Good luck with that given our current economic realities.
Employers aren't and can't be above the basic principles of economics. If supply of labor exceeds demand, of course wages are kept low. That's not what employers can control. It's what labor resources turn out to be. The way to raise wages for the same kind of work is to creat labor shortages. Good luck with that given our current economic realities.
Its funny how you say this...
In the end your view of our society is one that can be stated thusly (feel free to correct me)
You are only worth what you are paid.
As we move to automate things more and more....we dont NEED people to work as much. thus the oversupply of labor will continue to get worse. In your world....what should we do with the excess labor? Despite there being more and more total wealth and income....what should occur to those who are no longer employable? You know....for example all the taxi drivers, and truck, and bus drivers once self driving vehicles occur....
Please dont say "new jobs will happen" because I have news for you, if they are jobs these people can do, they're going to be automated, I can see a future of 5% employment.
The danger to the economy is capitalism and faltering demographics... not socialism.
Besides, most countries we perceive as "socialist" are not even close. They just practice more sane levels of wealth redistribution.
How is "socialism" working out for you Canada? Scandanavian countries? All of you now have the wealthiest Middle Class in the world, surpassing American "exceptionalism."
You clearly don't read my post. You creat a straw man that's easy to refute.
Where do you see "anti immigration"? Immigrants mean much more to America than Americans would like to acknowledge. Affluent individuals invest and spend in this consumer economy. They are the reason lots of American service sector jobs are afloat. They have more money,skills, knowledge than most Americans. Tables have turned. Don't talk to them like they are refugees. They are doing a favor to America and people don't appreciate enough. Then there are also skilled immigrants who are the backbone of our high tech industry, who fill our shortage of STEM workers. There are working class immigrants who fill positions Americans arrogantly walk away from. Our workforce needs more hard working immigrants who are willing and able to do what's necessary to improve their lives.
There are lots of jobs. Americans don't want them because Americans see these jobs "below" them. I say, get rid of their sense of entitlement, then maybe employers would look at them seriously. Your spoiled college kids need a lesson.
And what exactly do you mean by businesses not paying decent wages? How self centered. Wages are determined by how well a business is doing, how many people seek a job, etc. We do have labor surplus all over the place, and that won't change in the next several decades. You just care about your "decent wage" which you never define, climb on the backs of other people with an inflated sense of self righteousness. Businesses exist for you and your decent wage! This is precisely why so many businesses have given up on this country
I read your post, and I'll stand by what I said.
You want wealthy immigrants from Asia, but you think all Latinos are "illegals" -- and save your denials for some naive person who hasn't heard the same BS over and over again. Just because somebody speaks English with a Latino accent or only speaks Spanish does not make that person an "illegal".
I understand economics just fine, too. I understand that the reason "illegals" come to the US is because American businesses are willing to hire them because they'll work for less than American workers. I also understand that the reason American businesses off-shore so much of their work is so that they can make more profit by paying people in Third World countries pennies an hour with no benefits and not worry about safe working conditions or polluting air or water or the how young their foreign workers are.
Since you denigrate paying people decent wages for their work, why are you whining about the government picking up the slack by providing benefits? You obviously think that people should work for $1/day and be happy to live in cardboard boxes so that you don't have to pay taxes to provide them with any benefits at all. Is that how your "libertine economy" would work? Would the mass of Americans live in the hell holes like the slums around Nairobi or Mumbai or Rio de Janeiro -- or would you, with your clear-sighted, rational mindset and sharp economic vision realize that it would be "better" to just cut your "losses" on these "extraneous" people?
I'm still waiting for you to name even 1 country with a "libertine economy" BTW.
You want wealthy immigrants from Asia, but you think all Latinos are "illegals" -- and save your denials for some naive person who hasn't heard the same BS over and over again. Just because somebody speaks English with a Latino accent or only speaks Spanish does not make that person an "illegal".
I understand economics just fine, too. I understand that the reason "illegals" come to the US is because American businesses are willing to hire them because they'll work for less than American workers. I also understand that the reason American businesses off-shore so much of their work is so that they can make more profit by paying people in Third World countries pennies an hour with no benefits and not worry about safe working conditions or polluting air or water or the how young their foreign workers are.
Since you denigrate paying people decent wages for their work, why are you whining about the government picking up the slack by providing benefits? You obviously think that people should work for $1/day and be happy to live in cardboard boxes so that you don't have to pay taxes to provide them with any benefits at all. Is that how your "libertine economy" would work? Would the mass of Americans live in the hell holes like the slums around Nairobi or Mumbai or Rio de Janeiro -- or would you, with your clear-sighted, rational mindset and sharp economic vision realize that it would be "better" to just cut your "losses" on these "extraneous" people?
I'm still waiting for you to name even 1 country with a "libertine economy" BTW.
I never said I would name a libertine economy. That's a question you imagined. And where did I say anything about Latinos? And where did I say anything about English or Spanish? See you are used to creating straw man based on stereotypes or irrelevant inferences. Just because a person speaks Spanish doesn't mean they are "illegal". You don't need to say that. I never used the word ”illegal". In fact the word "undocumented" is already problematic because it privileges Americans over other human beings. The truth is that if a person, regardless of documentation, wants to work hard and businesses want that person, more power to them. If they are hired and are an employee, that is their documentation. Liberals and conservatives want nationality documentation which is racist, exclusive, and counter productive to the economy. It frustrates me when liberals say people are not "illegal" and they are just "undocumented". It is full of artificial boundaries. They are not undocumented. Let me tell you they are not. They are just people. Did white people have documentation when they came here? Do you call yourself undocumented? If not why call potential Americans undocumented? Oops. Whites invaded and killed off everyone. And what does accents have to do with this? If more of the population speak Spanish, then businesses will be done more in Spanish. Language is neutral. Who cares which one. I speak several languages and I don't mind seeing America being un-Englished. We are a global one world of human resources, linguistically and culturally neutral.
There are two leisure classes in America today: the super rich and the super poor who choose not to work. I never said that wealth would love to come here. But we should at least try to attract wealth. With our increasingly socialist policies, we are not going to be able to attract wealth. Then what?
I think we can attract many from the third world. Affluent Asians are coming here and spending money here.
Handing out things to undocumented immigrants is progressives' policy. If that policy hurts this society, then people need to speak up and wake up progressives.
I agree with your point that the fruit of your labor is going to someone else. Unfortunately it'll probably be more so in the coming years. I don't know how much you make. But I think socialism is going to be terrible for those making between $60k and $150000.
Youre under the impression, as is most RW talk radio, that theres this awesome lifestyle to be had by living off of government assistance. These people are out on jet skis, with their 17 children, eating steak and lobster, traveling to Europe, and vote purely democrat. Please find ONE person living off of the government who you would classify as "leisure" lifestyle. The worst Ive seen is the fat woman sitting on the couch all day eating free food and watching Springer, Id hardly call that "leisure."
Youre under the impression, as is most RW talk radio, that theres this awesome lifestyle to be had by living off of government assistance. These people are out on jet skis, with their 17 children, eating steak and lobster, traveling to Europe, and vote purely democrat. Please find ONE person living off of the government who you would classify as "leisure" lifestyle. The worst Ive seen is the fat woman sitting on the couch all day eating free food and watching Springer, Id hardly call that "leisure."
Depends on how you define leisure. I never said the lifestyle of those living off of welfare is wonderful. But it is tolerable for many people with low expectations. What's this "traveling to Europe" thing? You are totally imagining here. Lol.
Another thing I noticed is the use of Europe. It's always going to Europe as if that's who Americans are, white Americans maybe? Not to pick on you. Just an observation about the bias of our discourse.
In your original post, in which you admitted that capitalism has already failed most Americans and will fail even more into the future, you mentioned those who supported "a libertine economy", whatever the hell that is. I suspect it's just another dumb-arsed made-up code phrase that Right Wingnuts are so fond of concocting because they think it makes them sound intelligent ... like Limbaugh or O'Reilly or one of their other icons, but since I don't assault my intelligence with mounds of bull manure, I don't really know. Maybe you just made it up.
At any rate, I want an example of a "libertine economy" that actually exists so everybody reading this thread actually know what it is and can see how it differs from the failure that's capitalism. There are examples of communist economies and socialist ones and of mixed economies. Put up or shut up, sir.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Costaexpress
Jobs are not coming back. Globalization will continue to reshape our economy. What we are seeing is long term high unemployment, financial struggles for both the newly wed and the nearly dead, virtual globalization, labor market flooding by globalism, and new born populations largely in poverty.
We might get to that day when the majority of Americans are sick and tired of the struggles and prefer socialism. This is not going to be Scandinavian socialism. American socialism will be mediocre and crappy. It will encourage people to have more children and gain everything by doing nothing. People who are well to do, who have specialized skills, and who support a libertine economy will be in the minority as more Americans can't make it to the well to do class. Once we reach that tipping point, we may never become a free society again. We will then see money fleeing America, making it harder to find money to pay for everything people want.
Socialism is a political "solution" to economic problems that must be solved economically.
Depends on how you define leisure. I never said the lifestyle of those living off of welfare is wonderful. But it is tolerable for many people with low expectations. What's this "traveling to Europe" thing? You are totally imagining here. Lol.
Another thing I noticed is the use of Europe. It's always going to Europe as if that's who Americans are, white Americans maybe? Not to pick on you. Just an observation about the bias of our discourse.
Wow really......bringing race into this? That totally gives you credibility points....
[quote=Linda_d;34563271]In your original post, in which you admitted that capitalism has already failed most Americans and will fail even more into the future, you mentioned those who supported "a libertine economy", whatever the hell that is. I suspect it's just another dumb-arsed made-up code phrase that Right Wingnuts are so fond of concocting because they think it makes them sound intelligent ... like Limbaugh or O'Reilly or one of their other icons, but since I don't assault my intelligence with mounds of bull manure, I don't really know. Maybe you just made it up.
At any rate, I want an example of a "libertine economy" that actually exists so everybody reading this thread actually know what it is and can see how it differs from the failure that's capitalism. There are examples of communist economies and socialist ones and of mixed economies. Put up or shut up, sir.[
How did I get the task of giving examples of a libertine economy? Why do there have to be existing examples? Libertine economy is just a set of approaches, not am economic theory and I didn't say it is.
A libertine society is free and open, socially liberal and economically flexible. People should be able to marry freely,I migrate or emigrate freely. It is still a capitalist economy, not socialist. It can have reasonable government schemes and social welfare--- and I never said there should be no social welfare--- but economic polices must fit in the global economy, encourages innovation, and rewards such innovation and hard work.
Capitalism didn't fail. We failed capitalism. We didn't adapt well. We didn't prepare enough for the global economy. We still have much resistance toward it than willingness to figure out how to benefit from the global economy. The global middle class presents enormous opportunities. Yet Americans refuse and resent such development. It's is human to draw boundaries but in a global economy we are one pool now. We need to get better at benefiting from the global economy than avoidance and protectionism.
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I also understand that the reason American businesses off-shore so much of their work is so that they can make more profit by paying people in Third World countries pennies an hour with no benefits and not worry about safe working conditions or polluting air or water or the how young their foreign workers are.
